Protestants who have a problem with Catholic Traditions

[NewPerspective]

Allweather do you have AIM or anything where we can talk a little more efficiently?

 

[Allweather]

How about your praying to Mary, and bizarre acknowledgment of her as more than just a vessel used by God and a follower of Christ. She is not a mediator between you and God. Thats BLATANT scripture. There is an instance in the Gospel of Luke chapter 11 verse 27 where a woman cried out "Blessed is the womb that bare thee…"and Jesus rebuked her and replied “Blessed is those who hear The Word and keep it”. Mary is in paradise with Jesus, yes, im not arguing the fact that she was a devout follower of Jesus, but she is not a mediator between us and God nor is she any more “Holy” than us as your doctrine teaches and as scripture does not. Yes she is special, but so are you and me. And when you guys do your Rosary thing, are like only 3 beads dedicated to our Heavenly Father and the rest of them Hail Marys? You can do what you want but I would rather hail Jesus Christ the Son of God who bore our sin and died for me at Calvary. Thanks

I hear you, brother, but let’s take one thing at a time. There’s plenty of time to discuss the Blessed Virgin Mary and all that she means in terms of the nature of Jesus. I asked you to show me from the Catechism of the Catholic Church where, let’s see, here are your words from a short time ago: ““my beliefs and morals are not based on religion or a doctrine that pushes the premise that good works and charity is my ticket to salvation”” is taught by the Catholic Church. I take it from this quote that you mistakenly believe that the Catholic Church teaches that we are “saved” by works alone.

After we’ve dealt with that issue, then let’s do get into Mary, as she is a favorite subject of mine, and one I dearly love to talk about.

 

[NewPerspective]

All of my arguments are ones influenced by the incredible contrast amongst catholic doctrine and scripture. Another thing, How about in Matthew 23:9 when it says " Call no man your father upon earth, for one is your father, He that is in Heaven"? Whats your take on confessing your sin to a man that you believe is more able to go to God with your prayer. Please explain this, logically, and ill tip my hat to ya.

 

[Allweather]

Allweather do you have AIM or anything where we can talk a little more efficiently?

Alas, no, but PM me via this forum and I will show you my personal email, and we can carry on that way, if you’d like.

 

[Allweather]

All of my arguments are ones influenced by the incredible contrast amongst catholic doctrine and scripture. Another thing, How about in Matthew 23:9 when it says " Call no man your father upon earth, for one is your father, He that is in Heaven"? Whats your take on confessing your sin to a man that you believe is more able to go to God with your prayer. Please explain this, logically, and ill tip my hat to ya.

Well, I just came from confession about an hour ago, so this is pretty fresh in my mind. I won’t get into long-winded Scriptural arguments about confession, or why we call priests “father.” There are quite a few very good articles here at CA that can answer those questions for you much more coherently than I can.

But I will testify according to my own experience. When I was a Protestant, I never felt forgiven. I never really confessed my sins in detail. I had never heard of Examination of Conscience. There was a vague teaching about forgiveness, but deep down I never really felt forgiven. And in fact, my sin life often re-emerged after periods of suppression, after which I gradually started rationalizing about it, calling it something less than serious sin, and so accomodating it. This continued well into my life as a Catholic because I continued to labor under Protestant misconception about confession: what it is and how to do it. In fact, it was only fairly recently that I finally discovered the beauty of confession. It is such a wonderful sacrament! We hear the words spoken, I absolve you of your sins. I feel forgiven now. Forgiveness isn’t just a concept, it is real, and I heard the words spoken to me by a holy man of God. Of course, there is a LOT more to say about confession. I’m only giving you a glimpse of what it means to me as a former fundamentalist Protestant.

 

[Allweather]

I’m not saying that the Catholic Church would bend to ELCA views, However, I do think it is a fine line to let a Church, LWF, make an agreement in doctrine that they do not actually have belief in or teach. Most people our not informed enough to know all the facts about a church, and this might lead some to go to a church that is not preaching what is the truth.
I think dialog is great.

I totally agree! Most people join a church by means of some process having nothing to do with rational thought. There are so many churches out there. My fiance became a Mormon because her younger brother became a Mormon. He became a Mormon because, when the day came that he was ready to hear God’s word spoken to his heart, it was a Mormon missionary doing the speaking. Simple as that. She never investigated the details of Mormonism. After more than 20 years as a tithing Mormon, she didn’t know about Joseph Smith’s polygamy, or that Mormonism teaches that men can become gods. She was under the impression that Mormonism is the same as Catholicism with a better family program.

As for myself, I was taught nothing whatever about Jesus as a child. I grew up a complete pagan. I didn’t hear about Jesus until I was 27 years old, and then I heard it via CBN in Virginia Beach. In those days I honestly didn’t know there was a distinction between Protestants and Catholics. I thought there is only one Christianity, and so I ended up in a cult-like group in San Francisco that claimed to be the True Church, but actually was rather far from that.

So I do know what you’re talking about. People need to be clear about what they’re doing in the area of religion. There is a lot of bad religion out there. It was the realization of this, over a period of several years, that ultimately led me into the Catholic Church. It was thru rational choice, not chance, that I became a Catholic.

 

[Protestant101]

We’re not that far apart! By what you write you reveal certain misconceptions about Catholicism. Your statement: “a religion like Catholicism that half the people that follow don’t have the slightest understanding of what they profess” is indicative, and worth examination. How do you know that “half” of Catholics don’t know what they profess? I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I’m wanting to know how you know such a thing.

And, if someone professes something, isn’t it likely that they know what they’re professing?

How do you know that we Catholics don’t surrender to “The God of Wonders” by asking Him into our lives “through His Son, Jesus Christ”?

Are you certain that more than half the people who follow YOUR religion have the slightest understanding of what they’re professing? If so, how do you know?

Now, the larger question: Why are you concerned with what others are thinking? Isn’t it enough trouble for you to worry about what NewPerspective is thinking?

I find such questions to be evasive techniques, taught to many “apologists” and others, on both sides of the fence here. I have never understood why Catholics get so threatened by Protestants who do not see it their way about what they call “Tradition.” I have asked many Catholics what is Tradition; can I see a list of the major Traditions held by Catholicism? I have not once gotten a straight answer; not once have I gotten united responses by various Catholics I have asked about this.

I find it very counter-productive to see some Catholic apologists simply dismiss away a protestant’s questions about Tradition, by saying things like: “Your question is flawed…” That is a defensive reply; only geared to denigrating the “opponent;” and yes; the question just might be flawed; but then why can’t it just be answered? No “apologetics.” No trite replies. No mental gymnastics. Just give us a list the main things Catholics class as Tradition, and then allow us to study these things with you on this forum. Defensive accusations such as “anti-Catholic” are rife whenever a Protestant dares to question “Tradition.”

Protestants have announced as their rule of faith: “The Bible, and the Bible only,” with the Holy Spirit as its sole Interpreter. I like what William Chillingworth, M. A., once stated:

“The Bible, I say, the Bible only, is the religion of Protestants! I for my part, after a long and (as I verily believe and hope) impartial search of ‘the true way to eternal happiness,’ do profess plainly that I cannot find any rest for the sole of my foot but upon this rock only. I see plainly and with my own eyes, that there are popes against popes, councils against councils, some fathers against others, the same fathers against themselves, a consent of fathers of one age against a consent of fathers of another age, the church of one age against the church of another age. . . . In a word, there is no sufficient certainty but of Scripture only for any considering man to build upon.” - “The Religion of Protestants,” William Chillingworth, M. A., P. 463. London: 1866.

 

[DixiesFinest]

How do you know that people are “going through repetitive and tedious motions” in church? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit could be leading them to pray and worship this way? Do you consider the Psalms repetitive and tedious?

Of course they dont…its in the Bible…but repeating prayers while meditating on the life of CHRIST? obviously satanic…

Just because Protestants lack the will power to pray and meditate during the Mass and Rosary, thereby making it to them repetitive and tedious, doesnt mean Catholics lack such will power.

 

[Cat]

NewPerspective, I was an evangelical Protestant of evangelical Protestants for over 40 years. I became Catholic three years ago.

May I make a suggestion, please? Before you post anything else and get more things wrong, go to the home page of the forum and read through all those articles in the “library” section on the left hand side of your screen.

It won’t take you long, maybe a couple of hours for a couple of days.

But these papers will correct a lot of the misconceptions that you have about the Catholic Church. Yes, you do have misconceptions. Please don’t try to tell Catholics what we believe. You don’t KNOW what we believe. If you did, you wouldn’t keep making posts about some weird religion that none of us are familiar with.

I and many others on this Board had a lot of those same misconceptions, and we railed against what we THOUGHT the Catholic Church was.

We were wrong.

I’m not sure why you came to this Board. To witness to non-Christians? To try to correct unScriptural Catholic teachings? To learn more about Catholicism?

Well, the first thing you need to do is learn WHAT the Church actually teaches, and a good easy way to do that is to read through the articles in that library section. There are also lots of good books, but that library section is free! Start there. ALL the things that you have brought up (and stated incorrectly) in your posts are in that library. Enjoy! THEN come back and ask away.

Just let me say a few things that aren’t from an apologetics manual, but are from my heart. The Catholic Church is the most Biblical church. After 40 years of evangelicalism, I knew my Bible! And it’s Catholic! Before saying that the Catholic Church isn’t Biblical, please find out what the Catholic Church actually teaches, and THEN compare it to your Bible.

Also, yes, the Catholic Church DOES emphasize a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and salvation in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH (Ephesians 2: 8 and 9)! Honest! Let me ask YOU a question–quote me the Bible verse that tells you that in order to be saved, you must ask Jesus Christ into your heart to be your personal Savior.

As for repetitions: Revelation 4 8 "And the four living creatures, each one of them havnig six wings, are full of eyes around and within and day and night they do not cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, Almighty, who was and who is, and who is to come.”

Life is repetition. Are you married? Do you have sex with your spouse? Is is different every time? A little bit, but for the most part, you probably have a “method” that works for the two of you. Do you have children? Do they have a bedtime ritual? Do you have family traditions that you follow (“But Mom, DADDY has to put the star on the Christmas Tree!”) Life is traditions, rituals, repetitions–without them, we have chaos and disorder. God is a God of order, as you know. Read a book by C.S. Lewis called Letters to Malcom–in one of the letters, he talks about the importance of ritual and sameness to true worship of God. Repetition and ritual is totally Biblical.

Finally, the Rosary–The prayers of the Rosary are all meditations on the mysteries of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ: His birth, His Passion and Death, His Life on this earth, His Glorious Resurrection, the Coming of the Holy Spirit, and the rewards for His faithful in heaven. Twenty minutes per day of meditating on Jesus Christ–it’s a great prayer.

Have fun reading through those articles. As I tell my kids: Learn lots.

 

[Allweather]

I find such questions to be evasive techniques, taught to many “apologists” and others, on both sides of the fence here. I have never understood why Catholics get so threatened by Protestants who do not see it their way about what they call “Tradition.” I have asked many Catholics what is Tradition; can I see a list of the major Traditions held by Catholicism? I have not once gotten a straight answer; not once have I gotten united responses by various Catholics I have asked about this.

Well, we weren’t discussing Tradition, as I recall. NewPerspective had said that half of Catholics don’t have the “slightest understanding” of what they profess, and I was asking him to tell me how he knows that. I fail to see how that is an evasive technique. If someone says they know something, and someone else askes them how they know what they say they know, that is a valid question and deserves a good answer.

If you want to know what Sacred Tradition is, I can’t recommend a better source than the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is online in various places, so you don’t even need to buy a copy. A good place to start would be Article 2 of Part One, The Revelation of God, where it discusses the Apostolic Tradition, The Relationship between Tradition and Sacred Scripture, and the Interpretation of the Heritage of Faith. Frankly, I try to have as few personal opinions about Church as possible. At nearly age 60, my life is a moth-eaten testiment to what happens when a man proposes his own opinions as worthwhile over those of God’s Church. So, rather than give you my opinons, which after all are, now, identical to those of the Church, I will refer you to the “horse’s mouth” where you should be able to get a final answer to your question about Sacred Tradition.

Protestants have announced as their rule of faith: “The Bible, and the Bible only,” with the Holy Spirit as its sole Interpreter.

For the most part, that is a good rule. Of course, problems arise. One is faced with a rather broad expanse of competing sects and cults, each claiming a “true” interpretation of the Bible. We can guess from this that the Bible in and of itself, while excellent beyond measure, doesn’t provide its own interpretations. Still, I’ve known Protestants who think that diversity among Christians is actually a good thing. Based on what Jesus told us in the Bible about unity, though, my own feeling is that it is a bad thing.

 

[zcharry]

Well, I just came from confession about an hour ago, so this is pretty fresh in my mind. I won’t get into long-winded Scriptural arguments about confession, or why we call priests “father.” There are quite a few very good articles here at CA that can answer those questions for you much more coherently than I can.

But I will testify according to my own experience. When I was a Protestant, I never felt forgiven. I never really confessed my sins in detail. I had never heard of Examination of Conscience. There was a vague teaching about forgiveness, but deep down I never really felt forgiven. And in fact, my sin life often re-emerged after periods of suppression, after which I gradually started rationalizing about it, calling it something less than serious sin, and so accomodating it. This continued well into my life as a Catholic because I continued to labor under Protestant misconception about confession: what it is and how to do it. In fact, it was only fairly recently that I finally discovered the beauty of confession. It is such a wonderful sacrament! We hear the words spoken, I absolve you of your sins. I feel forgiven now. Forgiveness isn’t just a concept, it is real, and I heard the words spoken to me by a holy man of God. Of course, there is a LOT more to say about confession. I’m only giving you a glimpse of what it means to me as a former fundamentalist Protestant.

I think what you said about your experience in confession is very moving. I enjoy the same words from my Pastor each Sunday. My questions is do you feel that to have your sins forgiven you need to confess them to a Priest, or is this the best way for you to reflect on your sins and get comfort.
I ask God every night for forgiveness and I reflect on my sins during my prayers.
I go to bed each night know that through Jesus Christ My sins are forgiven.
In Christ

 

[DixiesFinest]

Please dont attack me if you dont understand your doctrine yourself. Thanks

Dear NewPerspective,

Stop it. Now. You are digging yourself into a hole you will never be able to get out of. You are simply making yourself a laughing stock among the Protestant debaters.
You say we do not understand our own doctrine? I was not raised Catholic, I converted! You know why? I studied the Holy Scriptures, and realized that the multi headed monster of Protestantism could not explain them to me. It had no answer for passages like St John 6. The answers I was given were unsatisfactory: only Catholicism could explain.
You are making yourself a laughing stock among the Protestant debaters. Quit Now.

Thanks

 

[DixiesFinest]

Protestants have announced as their rule of faith: “The Bible, and the Bible only,” with the Holy Spirit as its sole Interpreter. I like what William Chillingworth, M. A., once stated:

Cool, one problem though, a problem which no Protestant has been able to answer…why in Gods most Holy Name are there over 20,000 Protestant denominations in the world if the Holy Ghost is supposed to lead all Christians to the one Truth of God?

 

[DixiesFinest]

I think what you said about your experience in confession is very moving. I enjoy the same words from my Pastor each Sunday. My questions is do you feel that to have your sins forgiven you need to confess them to a Priest, or is this the best way for you to reflect on your sins and get comfort.
I ask God every night for forgiveness and I reflect on my sins during my prayers.
I go to bed each night know that through Jesus Christ My sins are forgiven.
In Christ

catholic.com/library/Confession.asp

 

[Allweather]

I think what you said about your experience in confession is very moving. I enjoy the same words from my Pastor each Sunday. My questions is do you feel that to have your sins forgiven you need to confess them to a Priest, or is this the best way for you to reflect on your sins and get comfort.
I ask God every night for forgiveness and I reflect on my sins during my prayers.
I go to bed each night know that through Jesus Christ My sins are forgiven.
In Christ

Mortal sins must be confessed in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. “Every serious sin must always be stated, with its determining circimstances, in an individual confession” Reconiliatio custos, John Paul II, 1989.

Venial sins need not be confessed in Reconciliation, but are forgiven when we receive the Eucharist in a state of grace, that is my understanding, someone correct me if I am wrong, please.

I usually go to confession about once a month, and I almost always have at least one serious, ie mortal sin to describe to the priest.

Confession has helped me to gain insight to the nature of sin, and how devious we humans are in rationalizing our way into it. It has been a rather long process for me. I was away from the Church for about eight years, living a life of absolute sinfulness. After I returned, I started REALLY learning about confession. During my first few years as a Catholic I must say I really had no idea what it was all about.

I’m certainly not questioning your own conviction of forgiveness. I envy you that, because I never felt that as a fundamentalist. I didn’t even know exactly what sin was. I was in it up to my neck, of course, and was extremely judgemental of everyone else who didn’t measure up to our standards of holiness and pride, which means all Catholics and other Protestants. God touched me anyway, though. He will reach around our stupidities if we reach out to Him in earnest desire. My process of conversion and salvation has been a very long and convoluted one, and is still on-going.

 

[zcharry]

NewPerspective,

Also, yes, the Catholic Church DOES emphasize a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and salvation in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH (Ephesians 2: 8 and 9)! Honest! Let me ask YOU a question–quote me the Bible verse that tells you that in order to be saved, you must ask Jesus Christ into your heart to be your personal Savior.

First let me say that I do not agree with most of everything NewPerspective is saying. However, I think a lot of confusing comes in because there is a lot of different views from each person claiming faith under one Catholic Church. Just read about views from how you are saved and it is from one spectrum all the way to the other side coming from Catholics.
Here is a qoute from your Catechism

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Your statement of by grace through faith is correct if it is the initial grace you are speaking of. Some might be talking about after the inital grace. When it comes to works it is very important to make sure to point out, are you talking about the initial grace that you do not merit or are you talking about after the initial grace you need to merit to get sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.

God Bless

 

[zcharry]

Mortal sins must be confessed in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. “Every serious sin must always be stated, with its determining circimstances, in an individual confession” Reconiliatio custos, John Paul II, 1989.

need not be confessed in Reconciliation, but are forgiven when we receive the Eucharist in a state of grace, that is my understanding, someone correct me if I am wrong, please.

I usually go to confession about once a month, and I almost always have at least one serious, ie mortal sin to describe to the priest.

Confession has helped me to gain insight to the nature of sin, and how devious we humans are in rationalizing our way into it. It has been a rather long process for me. I was away from the Church for about eight years, living a life of absolute sinfulness. After I returned, I started REALLY learning about confession. During my first few years as a Catholic I must say I really had no idea what it was all about.

I’m certainly not questioning your own conviction of forgiveness. I envy you that, because I never felt that as a fundamentalist. I didn’t even know exactly what sin was. I was in it up to my neck, of course, and was extremely judgemental of everyone else who didn’t measure up to our standards of holiness and pride, which means all Catholics and other Protestants. God touched me anyway, though. He will reach around our stupidities if we reach out to Him in earnest desire. My process of conversion and salvation has been a very long and convoluted one, and is still on-going.

I would like to know why you would feel that God would forgive your venial sins coming to him through Jesus Christ but would deny you forgiveness for a mortal sin without a Priest. What for the person who is injuried and will not get to confess to a Priest?
Would God deny a faithful Christian eternal live because a man (Priest) was not there to give absolution at the last hour. If God would forgive him without a Priest, would he not at other times even when it was not your last hour?
Please to not get me wrong. I respect your Faith and I’m not saying you are wrong or trying to change your mind, I just do not understand the reason behind it.

Your Brother in Christ

 

[mark_a]

Catholic Tradition

1. As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, ‘does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.’ [DV 9.]–Catechism of the Catholic Church, (C) 1994/1997 United States Catholic Conference, Inc.

It would be nice if you could give simple answers for simple folk like me.

I’ve already written you off as a know-it-all.

Even if I live to be a hundred, I can’t devout so much time to a cut-n-paster.

 

[mark_a]

I would like to know why you would feel that God would forgive your venial sins coming to him through Jesus Christ but would deny you forgiveness for a mortal sin without a Priest.

You didn’t ask me, but at the risk of having my head bitten off. . .

Catholics believe that coming back into a state of grace from mortal sin is a sacrament. We need a priest there, just like for baptism, marriage, annointing of the sick, etc.

What for the person who is injuried and will not get to confess to a Priest? Would God deny a faithful Christian eternal live because a man (Priest) was not there to give absolution at the last hour. If God would forgive him without a Priest, would he not at other times even when it was not your last hour?

No, God would not deny anything, if a Catholic is in a state of mortal sin, was sorry for the sin, and intended to go to sacramental confession, he is ok. God knows our intent, not the priest. If we confess to a priest and are not truly sorry, we are not forgiven.

A different example: if a person confesses to a priest that he or she is shacking up and does not intend to change the situation, the priest cannot absolve the sin, and would be committing a mortal sin if he did.

Confession is just common sense.

 

[Milliardo]

How about your praying to Mary, and bizarre acknowledgment of her as more than just a vessel used by God and a follower of Christ. She is not a mediator between you and God. Thats BLATANT scripture

No more than we are mediators for each other when we pray for one another! But Mary isn’t mediator by herself; rather, she is working as a mediator with her Son. When we pray for one another, we also work that way.

There is an instance in the Gospel of Luke chapter 11 verse 27 where a woman cried out "Blessed is the womb that bare thee…"and Jesus rebuked her and replied “Blessed is those who hear The Word and keep it”.

In fact what Jesus said is an indirect praise to His mother. Who can doubt that Mary kept what He said in her heart?

And when you guys do your Rosary thing, are like only 3 beads dedicated to our Heavenly Father and the rest of them Hail Marys?

You forget that most of the Rosary is a reflection on Christ.