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Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary
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david_ruiz
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david_ruiz
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Miriam1947
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Thanks for posting this. And here is a beautiful video which explains what you just posted.
youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA
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Miriam1947
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Patavium
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Thanks for sharing.
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david_ruiz
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hawkeye125646
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Oh cool! Thank you for the beauty of the FULL TRUTH! May God continue to bless you and all of your loved ones!
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kellerk
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I have been researching this subject vigorously, I feel I’m studying to be an apologist myself. I have been asked to explain this subject to a few of my christian friends. This thread has been so informative for me, and actually covers just about everything I’ve researched. I appreciate the alternate views to prepare me for how I plan to answer these questions. The problem seems to be, there is an argument for every point made and if ones mind is made up there can be no definitive conclusion that is acceptable. To me, the comparison of Genesis and John…starting with In the beginning…also in Exodus, Samual, Luke, Corinthians, all the way to Revelations…explains the role of Mary pretty well, as the new Eve, the new ark. It totally fulfills the OT down to each detail. It seems so obvious to me, I don’t know why it’s so hard for some to see. But, I can also see how hard it can be to trust a church that has so much controversy and corruption within. Again, it’s so easy for me to see that Satan has targeted it for a reason, because it is the church established by Jesus Himself, of course Satan wants it destroyed, he wants to lead as many people away as possible. Jesus even said this would happen. But all the controversy and corruption cannot change the truth and Evil will not prevail over it! And guess who, in the end, will chrush the head of the serpent? Pray for me on my first attempt to defend my faith, I’m new at this, any advice for me is welcome. I want to be fully prepared.
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david_ruiz
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campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/kimmac.html som good info ,haven’t read it all
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TarkanAttila
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Was it a good idea to say that He was the son of David, who committed every sin in the book, or of Solomon who squandered his wisdom?
God loves His people, no matter how sinful they are.
But the truth about Mary is only a reflection of the Truth of Christ.
I mean, if you were God, and you were going to be born into the world of a woman, why wouldn’t you nitpick about the quality of your mother?
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loko
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Publisher
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david ruiz;9347331:
some ignore it at their own peril.
Protestants do not have one Teaching. Even within one protestant community there are Teachings that contradict each other e.g. some Lutherans Teachings support abortion in some cases and other Lutherans Teachings do not support abortion at all.
You are limited to the Bible, Catholics are not. Catholics do not limit Jesus or Mary or any other biblical person to the Bible.
We actually believe that between the age of 12 and 30 Jesus did things, nowhere is he mentioned in the Bible between those ages. Does that mean you don’t believe he existed between those ages because you cannot find mention of it in the Bible? Of course not, yet you want us to take you seriously when you say that because it is not specifically written in the Bible, there is no way that Mary is sinless. There is no mention of the Holy Trinity in the Bible, yet Catholics and most Protestants believe in it.
All early
Catholics aren’t too much different…all Protestants use the Bible as the source of their teachings…a SINGLE SOURCE…just disagree among themselfves concerning certain teachngs from the SINGLE SOURCE…Catholics too have a SINGLE SOURCE for their beliefs…just disagree among themselves concerning certain teachings fromt the SINGLE SOURCE.
Just as most Catholics will worship together without too much problem…so most Protestants can and do worship together…because the teachings between most Protestant denominations are so similar…the differences between them and the focus on certain points of doctrine don’t keep us from realizing our Source of Unity is Jesus Himself through the work of the Holy Spirit…not the name on the sign in front of our meeting house.
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GraceDK
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loko;9352203:
Hi Publisher.Catholics aren’t too much different…all Protestants use the Bible as the source of their teachings…a SINGLE SOURCE…just disagree among themselfves concerning certain teachngs from the SINGLE SOURCE…Catholics too have a SINGLE SOURCE for their beliefs…just disagree among themselves concerning certain teachings fromt the SINGLE SOURCE.
Just as most Catholics will worship together without too much problem…so most Protestants can and do worship together…because the teachings between most Protestant denominations are so similar…the differences between them and the focus on certain points of doctrine don’t keep us from realizing our Source of Unity is Jesus Himself through the work of the Holy Spirit…not the name on the sign in front of our meeting house.
I dont know how it is where you live but in my neck of the woods the Protestants and Catholics can and do worship God together. Only they cannot celebrate the Sacraments together because there are some real differences between Catholicism and orthodoxy on one side and the Protestant world on the other.
We have to recognize these differences. They don’t go away, even as we love each other ardenty as brothers in Christ, and God knows I love the Evangelicals.
Yet my friends in Protestantism say: why do you fuss over details… forget about churches. I agree with them, what unifies us is is bigger than what seperates us, but again and again I must remind them that Sacraments are not a detail for us.
I tend to see Protestantism as a minimalistic form of Catholicism - only a manner of speaking, please don’t get upset. I love the Bible, so do my Protestant friends, and we can study it together… but as soon as I start to talk about church and church history they get a blank stare in their eyes.
In its minimalism Protestantism is incredibly strong when used correctly. Admittedly, sometimes Catholics get lost in many details and fail at the most essential which is to worship Christ and spread the Gospel. Its in many ways easier to be Protestant. Especially in our times I suppose. Matters of obedience. The Catholic Church being founded by Christ makes claims of Biblical and moral authority that Catholics must either adhere to, or live a double life.
The question is ultimately one of truth. Where is the Truth most fulfilled? The Bible says: The Church is the foundation and piller of truth. As a convert to Catholicism I feel extremely blessed, but also taken to a new level of responsibility. When I was a Protestant I was an island, my own magisterium… however you wish to coin it.
Anyway, what I really wanted to say is I am happy you are here.
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Publisher
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Publisher;9352276:
Friend, I rejoice with you that you have found a faith tradition that “speaks to your condition”.Hi Publisher.
I dont know how it is where you live but in my neck of the woods the Protestants and Catholics can and do worship God together. Only they cannot celebrate the Sacraments together because there are some real differences between Catholicism and orthodoxy on one side and the Protestant world on the other.
We have to recognize these differences. They don’t go away, even as we love each other ardenty as brothers in Christ, and God knows I love the Evangelicals.
Yet my friends in Protestantism say: why do you fuss over details… forget about churches. I agree with them, what unifies us is is bigger than what seperates us, but again and again I must remind them that Sacraments are not a detail for us.
I tend to see Protestantism as a minimalistic form of Catholicism - only a manner of speaking, please don’t get upset. I love the Bible, so do my Protestant friends, and we can study it together… but as soon as I start to talk about church and church history they get a blank stare in their eyes.
In its minimalism Protestantism is incredibly strong when used correctly. Admittedly, sometimes Catholics get lost in many details and fail at the most essential which is to worship Christ and spread the Gospel. Its in many ways easier to be Protestant. Especially in our times I suppose. Matters of obedience. The Catholic Church being founded by Christ makes claims of Biblical and moral authority that Catholics must either adhere to, or live a double life.
The question is ultimately one of truth. Where is the Truth most fulfilled? The Bible says: The Church is the foundation and piller of truth. As a convert to Catholicism I feel extremely blessed, but also taken to a new level of responsibility. When I was a Protestant I was an island, my own magisterium… however you wish to coin it.
Anyway, what I really wanted to say is I am happy you are here.
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Roy5
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Let me say, first off, that I love the Quakers and their peace testimony.
I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage (French Canadian, Yankee Puritan), and have been interested in warm relations among all Christians - and, beyond that, among those of every faith community. I have concluded over the years that none of us know all that much about eternal truth, that this mammoth and miraculous and mysterious universe is beyond human understanding. All that fortifies my awe before God however. It increases my simple faith rather than undercuts it.
I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage (French Canadian, Yankee Puritan), and have been interested in warm relations among all Christians - and, beyond that, among those of every faith community. I have concluded over the years that none of us know all that much about eternal truth, that this mammoth and miraculous and mysterious universe is beyond human understanding. All that fortifies my awe before God however. It increases my simple faith rather than undercuts it.
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My problem with traditional Catholicism is that it too often has the attitude of years ago: error has no rights. This is the core conviction of all forms of totalitarianism, whether in religion or in politics (e. g., Nazism and Communism). Call it what you will (and it usually is denounced as egotism) but I guess I'm too much of an independent thinker, have read too many Church Fathers (brilliant for their era but naive in light of our knowledge today), have become too well acquainted with Christian history and its cruel chapters, have questioned too many required doctrines (e. g.. transubstantiation, Immaculate Conception, papal infallibility in faith and morals) - well, etc.
As for evangelical Protestantism, much of it parallels traditional Catholicism in that it, too, insists that it has all the important answers. I have attended enough of its worship services to respect its enthusiasm and its sincerity, but have found it full of qustionable teachings along with all sorts of conflicting denominations, those who have infant baptism and those who don't, those who believe once saved always saved and those who don't. those who insist upon the rapture and those who don't - etc,
Over the years I have drawn closest to mainline Protestantism, denominations such as Methodists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and Episcopalians which have room for a variety of theological perspectives, where Bible classes welcome divergent views, where there is humility when it comes to matters of doctrine, where conflicting opinions are respected in an atmosphere of :'think and let think'.
Finally, isn't it a shame that so many insane wars, so much hatred and bigotry, has been motivated by 'religious' people of various faiths - Christians, Muslims, Jews, and others? I perceive God to be a friend of all those who seriously seek him and seek to serve him, those who love God and one another (as Christ commanded), whatever their faith 'label'. I suspect that God is far more interested in the love we exhibit than in which religious tribe we.belong to.
Now, as for Mary, all Christians admire her. Perhaps Protestants went too far in minimizing her. However, this came as a reaction to the way in which Catholicism seemed to deify her, make her basically part of the Godhead by insisting that she - for example - was the one and only person who never sinned. I know that Catholics do not worship Mary, but an alien from another planet would surely think they did after experiencing Catholicism. And why doesn't even one of all those New Testament epistles addressed to early Christians make mention of Mary? Paul and other writers certainly were advising those Christians on what to believe.
God bless people of every creed, color, culture and country. True religion should humbly seek to build bridges rather than boast that it alone knows and owns the pathway to eternal life.
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david_ruiz
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So God couldn’t become flesh in an ordinary daughter of Eve, to show He is one of us, just like us, to take on sin and crucify it ? Would He have really come out different being born to a woman washed of original sin the established way ? Would He have really come out any differently if Mary were indeed just like us,with human weakness, even with sin ? Did she ever get tired, angry, inatentive, misunderstanding ? To make Mary above all other woman /perfect, we make the statement null and void where it says Jesus was tempted in all ways human . We say He was never tempted /challenged with an imperfect mother like us…I believe it is a quirk on our part to think He was more “comfortable” in an immaculate woman, like He is afraid or squeamish of sinful flesh. Would there have been a difference in Mary’s flesh depending on when original sin was washed away ? I propose flesh is flesh and God can not be tainted by it. I repeat also He became sin, took it on for us at Calvary. This is the million dollar fact . As to when Mary was washed of sin is a nickel/dime issue or “nitpicking”. The primary inference of scripture is that she be in the line of David, a virgin,and blessed with the grace /faith to be obedient to bring Him forth. For this she will be called blessed.Do you need her to be Immaculate, Assumed to call her blessed ? Secondary inferences/meanings are just that, and such nitpicking is allowed, as long as it doesn’t override primary meanings of scripture (like all have sinned, and we are washed by faith in the promise,made perfect before God, acceptable ( for both old and new testament saints) indwellable, etc.) Thank-you
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GraceDK
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Let me say, first off, that I love the Quakers and their peace testimony.
I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage (French Canadian, Yankee Puritan), and have been interested in warm relations among all Christians - and, beyond that, among those of every faith community. I have concluded over the years that none of us know all that much about eternal truth,
**Really? You conclude that no one knows much about eternal truth? Did you never meet Christ, did you never see him? Did you never see anyone healed of deadly disease in his name? Did you never meet anyone who was far beyond you in wisdom and holiness? **
that this mammoth and miraculous and mysterious universe is beyond human understanding. All that fortifies my awe before God however. It increases my simple faith rather than undercuts it.
Well, it seems there’s not much to undercut now is there?
**Really, and what knowlege is it, that you have today? I hope you don’t refer to material possessions as subsitite for God. You call yourself an independent thinker… believe me, I grew up among people who call themselves such. What they have in common is a condescending view of other eras and peoples, and they believe that its better to be searching forever, than to actually find answers. Like, questions matters, but please don’t give the the answer God! Otherwise I am no longer a “free thinker”. Sorry, but how " free" is that? **Code:My problem with traditional Catholicism is that it too often has the attitude of years ago: error has no rights. This is the core conviction of all forms of totalitarianism, whether in religion or in politics (e. g., Nazism and Communism). Call it what you will (and it usually is denounced as egotism) but I guess I'm too much of an independent thinker, have read too many Church Fathers (brilliant for their era but naive in light of our knowledge today),
have become too well acquainted with Christian history and its cruel chapters, have questioned too many required doctrines (e. g… transubstantiation, Immaculate Conception, papal infallibility in faith and morals) - well, etc.
"Its cruel chapters huh? Have you also gotten acqainted with the cruel chapters of atheistic history? I’ll help you in your study… you only have to look at the last 100 years. Look at Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, Stalin and Hitler. Atheistic-agnostic ideologies that costed millions of lives, far more than all religious wars combined thhrough all of history. I wonder if you are able to see the doctrine of imperialistic relativism from the outside, or are you blinded by its embrace?
Have you ever read C. S. Lewis “The Great Divorce”. There is a great description of “free thinkers” in there
I have attended enough of its worship services to respect its enthusiasm and its sincerity, but have found it full of qustionable teachings along with all sorts of conflicting denominations, those who have infant baptism and those who don’t, those who believe once saved always saved and those who don’t. those who insist upon the rapture and those who don’t - etc,Code:As for evangelical Protestantism, much of it parallels traditional Catholicism in that it, too, insists that it has all the important answers.
Do you believe Jesus Christ died for your sins, though? Thats the defining question. Or are you too smart for Jesus Christ? Maybe sin is also an archaic concept? Its clear you are part of progressive ideology… people who believe that we, as human race, are always progressing towards something better. But what if we are loosing our humanity more and more because we have become too smart for God? In my college days I sometimes spent the night listening to young people who were running around drunk, singing about their genitalia. These were agnostic university students. The icing of western culture… From there the word “Monkey party” developed in my vocabulary. All these young people were, by the way, “free thinkers”.
God bless people of every creed, color, culture and country. True religion should humbly seek to build bridges rather than boast that it alone knows and owns the pathway to eternal life.
Do you believe in eternal life? What do you think of it when Jesus said: “Repent and believe in the Gospel. The way is wide that leads to damnation”. He was not a “free thinker” I suppose he would not have been very welcome in your study group.
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kellerk
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I wonder if you’ve read the Catholic bible, ie Septuagint. I’ve only just begun myself being that I was not aware of all the missing books left out of the KJV. I believe those books are to contain answers to some of the questions you have raised. The thing is, Catholics follow both oral and written traditions of the early christians. There is more to it than scripture alone, since the church and the oral teachings and traditions were passed on before the bible was ever compiled. I wonder if you have ever attended mass yourself. You would see the focus is very much scripture based. I believe you are still here for a reason, may the Holy Spirit lead you.
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david_ruiz
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Barnabus, early church father wrote, " To those of you who know the precepts of the Lord,follow them ,as many as are written "(110 ? ad)
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