Protestants; why won't you be CATHOLIC!?

[Dee123]

I wont say I will never be catholic, but my current biggest issues are the abuse scandals and some of the catholics I have engaged with both here and in real life.

While I have no issue with the claim of the church to be the one true church, I need to do a lot more work to understand how the institutionalised abuse was allowed to go on for so long in the church that Jesus founded, and I simply cannot yet get my head around the arrogance, ignorance, lack of charity and hypocracy of many catholics here and ones I know in real life. Again, I cannot reconcile their behavior with that of belonging to the one true church, so I’m left thinking if that’s what you turn into by being a catholic, I’ll stay as I am.
Having said that, some people here are the real deal, and I’ve learned a lot from them. Similarly in real life, I’ve met some good people.
My searching continues.

Interesting points…Some Catholics go because it’s “just a habit”. They really have no interest in developing a realtionship with God…because it’s a struggle…it’s hard. Lot’s of protestants are like this, too.

But remember that just because a Catholic goes to mass every Sunday, perhaps you know they also read the bible and pray and whatnot, that if a bad word comes out of their mouth, if they do or say something wrong, that’s because they are not human. We try and try and yes, we will fail. We all have pride in us and it’s a battle to be humble. Hah, when you can say, gee, I’m growing in humility, then you know how truly proud you are!!!

What is your definition of a hypocrite? I’d really like to know…I know that some seem to think that someone who goes to church and isn’t perfect/sometimes does wrong/immoral things, is a hypocrite…what’s your definition?

 

[Dee123]

You guys will say anything these days to try to get people to take you seriously.

The Roman Church has stated over and over again.Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus…see the quote below:

"The Catholic Church has solemnly defined three times by infallible declarations that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. The most explicit and forceful of the three came from Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra: “The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

From this Link: olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml

That is actually one of your tracts that you give people to scare them into converting. :tsktsk:

True! But do you really know what that means? We believe the church (ie the Catholic Church) is the body of Christ…If one cannot be saved but by through the body of Christ, and we believe this is equated with the physical church on earth, then this makes sense.

So, a Jew who tries with all his heart and mind to follow his faith and to love God and man, can go to Heaven. So can a Buddhist, a Muslim, anyone who tries to live their faith to the fullest while at the same time not having rejected Jesus and the Gospel…Some people never hear of the Gospel of Christ before they die, but they have done their best and they will certainly encounter the merciful God upon death. Because they are saved through the Body of Christ, which is the Church and we believe it’s the Catholic church. After all, Christ’s body wasn’t invisible. And neither is the church!

 

[NotTooSmart]

From this Link: olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml

Wow that link is interesting.

From reading this link I get the strong impression that yes Virginia I must be a card carrying Catholic to have eternal life.

The other two infallible declarations are as follows: There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved. Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).

We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as “part” of the Church of Christ. This doctrine has been the consistent teaching of the Popes throughout the centuries.

Were these popes wrong? I’ve been told they can not be wrong?

 

[DD2007]

True! But do you really know what that means? We believe the church (ie the Catholic Church) is the body of Christ…If one cannot be saved but by through the body of Christ, and we believe this is equated with the physical church on earth, then this makes sense.

So, a Jew who tries with all his heart and mind to follow his faith and to love God and man, can go to Heaven. So can a Buddhist, a Muslim, anyone who tries to live their faith to the fullest while at the same time not having rejected Jesus and the Gospel…Some people never hear of the Gospel of Christ before they die, but they have done their best and they will certainly encounter the merciful God upon death. Because they are saved through the Body of Christ, which is the Church and we believe it’s the Catholic church. After all, Christ’s body wasn’t invisible. And neither is the church!

That is error that leads people to hell.

The truth is that there really is no salvation outside the church! It’s just not the Roman Catholic Church. The Church is the body of Christ. The Elect. People who trust in Jesus Christ as savior and follow him as Lord.

Those who die in their sins having no faith in Jesus will spend eternity in hell.

John 3:18 ESV
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[DD2007]

Were these popes wrong? I’ve been told they can not be wrong?

Yes. They’ve all been wrong. They are generally the worst theologians in the entire world.

 

[Hisalone]

Or does it really mean that you do not have an answer?

I say what I mean and mean what I say.
You really miss the inquisition dont you?

 

[Peter_J]

You guys will say anything these days to try to get people to take you seriously.

The Roman Church has stated over and over again.Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus…see the quote below:

"The Catholic Church has solemnly defined three times by infallible declarations that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. The most explicit and forceful of the three came from Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra: “The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

From this Link: olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml

That is actually one of your tracts that you give people to scare them into converting. :tsktsk:

I’ve said elsewhere that quite a lot of Protestant posters underestimate the presence of “traditionalist Catholics” on this forum. But on the other hand, it would be equally eroneous to imagine that they account for 100% of the Catholic posters.

 

[Carlan]

I wont say I will never be catholic, but my current biggest issues are the abuse scandals and some of the catholics I have engaged with both here and in real life.

While I have no issue with the claim of the church to be the one true church, I need to do a lot more work to understand how the institutionalised abuse was allowed to go on for so long in the church that Jesus founded, and I simply cannot yet get my head around the arrogance, ignorance, lack of charity and hypocrisy of many catholics here and ones I know in real life. Again, I cannot reconcile their behavior with that of belonging to the one true church, so I’m left thinking if that’s what you turn into by being a catholic, I’ll stay as I am.
Having said that, some people here are the real deal, and I’ve learned a lot from them. Similarly in real life, I’ve met some good people.
My searching continues.

Hello Guy, on the steet, Yes we are all effected by scandal caused by the clergy in all religions and also scandal buy family, neighbors , and friends.We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God , but w e do have a merciful God who loves us so much he sent his only Son to die on a cross to redeem us all from our sin. And through Jesus he has given us the grace to live a virtus Christian life in his church so as to please Him and to be with him forever In heaven. Remember his Beatitude,’ Only the pure in heart shall see the face of God’. A pretty tall order but he loves us and wants us all with him and he has given us the grace to persevere to the end. God bless you in your journey, Guy:getholy::heaven:/Carlan

 

[Sellers1]

So, how do you explain that there is only one Catholic church and over 33,0000 protestant denominations?

Which protestant denomination does one choose? How do you decide that?

Can you name each of the 33,000 and tell us how each one interprets the Bible?

 

[Sellers1]

I’ve said elsewhere that quite a lot of Protestant posters underestimate the presence of “traditionalist Catholics” on this forum. But on the other hand, it would be equally eroneous to imagine that they account for 100% of the Catholic posters.

who cares? Traditional or new age Catholic, you’re all wrong.

 

[Peter_J]

who cares?

Is “Me” an acceptable answer, or are you looking for names of others besides myself?

Traditional or new age Catholic, you’re all wrong.

Well the “new age Catholics” are definitely wrong.

BTW, “traditionalist” and “traditional” aren’t interchangeable terms.

 

[Peter_J]

I wont say I will never be catholic, but my current biggest issues are the abuse scandals and some of the catholics I have engaged with both here and in real life.

While I have no issue with the claim of the church to be the one true church, I need to do a lot more work to understand how the institutionalised abuse was allowed to go on for so long in the church that Jesus founded, and I simply cannot yet get my head around the arrogance, ignorance, lack of charity and hypocracy of many catholics here and ones I know in real life. Again, I cannot reconcile their behavior with that of belonging to the one true church, so I’m left thinking if that’s what you turn into by being a catholic, I’ll stay as I am.
Having said that, some people here are the real deal, and I’ve learned a lot from them. Similarly in real life, I’ve met some good people.
My searching continues.

You say you have no issue with the claim that the Catholic Church is the one true church, and yet the rest of your post sounds an awful lot like you do take issue with said claim.

 

[Janet1983]

If the Catholic Church was a man-made institution, wouldn’t it have fallen hundreds or even a thousand years ago?

No.

 

[Janet1983]

The answer is no. Catholics do not beleive you have to be a catholic to be a Christian nor has the Church ever taught that one need to physically be a member of the Catholkc Church to be saved.

I am not so sure about that…
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

Fourth Lateran Council (1215):

There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.

Pope Boniface VIII:

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Pope Eugene IV:

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.

Pope Pelagius II (578-590):

Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church

Saint Gregory the Great (590-604):

Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216):

With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved

Pope Leo XII (1823-1829):

We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. … For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’

Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846):

It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.

Pope Pius IX (1846-1878):

Well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff"; also: Talk Singulari quadam: "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.

Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903):

This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.

Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae:

He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.

Pope Pius X (1903-1914):

It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.

Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922):

Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Pope Pius XI (1922-1939):

The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. … Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958):

By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.

Second Vatican Council:

They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.

 

[estesbob]

I am not so sure about that…

You are confusing salavtion through the Church with having to be a *member *of the Church . The former is required-the latter is not now or ever has been Catholic Doctrine. I suggest a little homework:

1. Look up Fenneyism(it might suprise you what Fr Feeney was excomunicated for).
2. Look up invincible ignorance
3. Look up baptism of desire.

I am always amused when Protestants approach Catholic Doctrine the way they do Scripture-Cut n paste a few out of context quotes and then declare themselves a Dr of theology of the Catholic Church

 

[Dee123]

Yes. They’ve all been wrong. They are generally the worst theologians in the entire world.

You are full of hatred toward Catholics…as Chrisians I thought we were supposed to strive to be like Christ…and to try our best with the grace of the Holy Spirit to love people, even those who don’t share the same beliefs as us…

Are you here for dialogue or to condemn Catholics and show your hatred towards us?

 

[Dee123]

Wow that link is interesting.

From reading this link I get the strong impression that yes Virginia I must be a card carrying Catholic to have eternal life.

Were these popes wrong? I’ve been told they can not be wrong?

Ahhhh, this is what many do not understand…glad you’re looking into this…Yes, we state that popes are infallible…This does NOT mean that they don’t sin and it does NOT mean that they don’t make mistakes…This means that because they are sitting in the chair of Peter, by the special graces they receive from the Holy Spirit, they cannot be wrong when they teach or make statements IN REGARDS TO FAITH OR MORALS ONLY.

And did “the popes” write the link you’re referring to? Who wrote it?
Refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church…no you don’t have to be a card-carrying Catholic to have eternal life…but think about this…if you seriously, honestly and with all humility look into the teachings of the Catholic Church, alongside with prayer and discussion/consultation with a good Catholic priest, and you reject everything, I don’t really know what will happen, but you will have to answer to God and only God in the end…

 

[Dee123]

One more thing; I said “there is no correlation to the two unless you were one of those who walked away in unbelief; became an apostate and started your own cannibal christian church” ; does someone who does not belief or walks away in unbelief, describe a Christian? No Christian walks away from God for two reasons 1) they can’t and 2) they wouldn’t want to

Of course a Christian can turn away from God…He will never turn away from us, though…I personally have people in my life who claim they are saved, but don’t go to church, don’t read the bible, claim they are angry with God and aren’t seeking resolution, and you don’t call this turning away from God?
Also, what about free will? We all have free will to walk away from anything or anyone…a marriage, a job, a relationship, a friendship, and God…He can’t stop it…

What about this scenario? A Christian who is tired of trying to be good and tired of not seeing their prayers answered one day down the road commits murder-intentionally. Is this called staying with God or walking away from him?
I know people who claim that once saved always saved…even if they murder, live with someone before marriage, have an extramarital affair, etc. etc.

What do you think?

 

[Dee123]

thanks for replying Hisalone!

btw, I just wanna say that I think all are saved eventually, even after death we can accept salvation. I say this because ‘with God, all things are possible’.

cheers everybody!

Wayne

Could you please quote the Scripture passage that says you can “accept salvation” after death?

Thanks

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

I am not so sure about that… Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14
They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it…

You need to continue reading:

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”. This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. ** Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.**

This is what the Church believes, it seems more charitable that those who reject it. Those who don’t want to believe this are free to deny this truth and all truth of the Catholic Church, but it would behoove one to read carefully before one rejects it, lest it be true. The protestant mantra is “personal authority” to interpret scripture in place of a (the) supernatural authority given to the Catholic Church to propose the doctrines that were defined, prior to the Reformation and now used by them, such as the final canon of the Bible (minus Deuterocanonical, also minus "Shepherd of Hermas, Gospel of Peter, or the Didache, which the Church also rejected in the final canon, if the Church is wrong why not add these? Or throw out James and Revelation like Luther wanted?), Trinity, etc. The priesthood of all believers seems to be very confusing:

btw, I just wanna say that I think all are saved eventually, even after death we can accept salvation. I say this because ‘with God, all things are possible’.
Wayne