Protestants---You must understand the Saints and why their bodies are incorruptible

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Righteousone said:
Because Jesus Christ started the Catholic church (again…):sleep:
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I had to verify. Thanks for clarifying 😉
You had made it sound like salvation was not found outside the Church. To a non-believer, it would’ve sounded like y’all created God :eek: (I know that’s not the case, lol).

-Mark
 
EmergencyOps said:
I had to verify. Thanks for clarifying 😉
You had made it sound like salvation was not found outside the Church. To a non-believer, it would’ve sounded like y’all created God :eek: (I know that’s not the case, lol).

-Mark
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Salvation is NOT found outside the church. (except in the cases I believe where people never heard the name Jesus.)
 
Righteousone said:
Salvation is NOT found outside the church. (except in the cases I believe where people never heard the name Jesus.)
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I guess I’m reading a Vatican II statement wrong: “It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.” I understand that **Extra ecclessiam nullam salus ** had been a long-standing idea in the Church, but that it was later changed.:confused:

-Mark
 
EmergencyOps said:
I guess I’m reading a Vatican II statement wrong: “It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.” I understand that **Extra ecclessiam nullam salus ** had been a long-standing idea in the Church, but that it was later changed.:confused:

-Mark
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I hope that I can clear it up.

When the doctrine was first proclaimed, it was thought that there were only 4 groups of people: Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and those who were pagan. It was also thought that everyone had heard the Good News of Christ and if they were not Catholic, they chose something to the detriment of their own salvation. Also, anyone who knew that Jesus was God and He founded the Church and still chose to leave the faith, then they were doomed.

Now, as time went on, we see the develpment of other Christian denominations. We also understand that the world HAS not heard the Good News, and that many people are not convienced that Christ is Lord. The Church more fully comprehends that there are some, who through no fault of their own, have no opportunity to accept Jesus, let alone the Church. The Concept of No Salvation Outside of the Church has to bring this together.

The new understanding is like this: Anyone who KNOWS that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and abandons it, is lost unless they repent. Anyone who KNOWS that Jesus is God and denies it is lost. Anyone who through no fault of their own does not know and accept either point will be saved as long as they act upon the grace that God gives them. It is also understood that as Christianity began with the Catholic Church, the message of salvation for all man is properly understood within it. Christian denominations still hold part of the truth and therefore non-Catholics can be saved.

I cannot say who will be in hell. No one can. I can say that the Church does not teach that either you are Catholic or you are damned.
 
ralphinal said:
I hope that I can clear it up.

When the doctrine was first proclaimed, it was thought that there were only 4 groups of people: Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and those who were pagan. It was also thought that everyone had heard the Good News of Christ and if they were not Catholic, they chose something to the detriment of their own salvation. Also, anyone who knew that Jesus was God and He founded the Church and still chose to leave the faith, then they were doomed.

Now, as time went on, we see the develpment of other Christian denominations. We also understand that the world HAS not heard the Good News, and that many people are not convienced that Christ is Lord. The Church more fully comprehends that there are some, who through no fault of their own, have no opportunity to accept Jesus, let alone the Church. The Concept of No Salvation Outside of the Church has to bring this together.

The new understanding is like this: Anyone who KNOWS that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and abandons it, is lost unless they repent. Anyone who KNOWS that Jesus is God and denies it is lost. Anyone who through no fault of their own does not know and accept either point will be saved as long as they act upon the grace that God gives them. It is also understood that as Christianity began with the Catholic Church, the message of salvation for all man is properly understood within it. Christian denominations still hold part of the truth and therefore non-Catholics can be saved.

I cannot say who will be in hell. No one can. I can say that the Church does not teach that either you are Catholic or you are damned.
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That is why one must to missionary work. To save more people.
 
Righteousone said:
I would like the Protestants here to learn about the Saints who were martyred for the faith and to understand something that is truly miraculous throughout the centuries:
People over the centuries have been martyred so viciuosly, so horrendous for the faith, here is a story for you to think about when you doubt the Saints and why Catholics pray THROUGH them.

One of the most amazing preservations is that of St. Andrew Bobola. Prior to his martyrdom he was partially flayed alive, his hands were hacked off and his tongue torn from his head. Splinters of wood were driven under his fingernails, and his face sustained such mutilations he was scarcely recognizable. After hours of further tortures and mutilations, he was dispatched by a sword’s blow to the neck. His body was hastily buried by Catholics in a vault beneath the Jesuit church at Pinsk, where it was found forty years later PERFECTLY PERSERVED, in spite of the open wounds, which would normally foster corruption. Although his grave had been damp, causing his vestments to rot, and in spite of the proximity of decaying corpses, his body was PERFECTLY FLEXIBLE, his flesh and muscles soft to the touch, and the blood which covered the numerous wounds was found to be like that which is freshly congealed.
The preservation was officially recognized by the Congregation of Rites in 1835. Even though the relic was roughly handled during it’s numerous translations, the body remains after more than 300 years in a marvelous state of preservation.
After the martyrdom of St. Josaphat, his body was thrown into a nearby river, where it remained for almost a week. Upon being retreived, it was found to have suffered NO ILL EFFECTS and was consigned to a grave, where it was again found undamaged five years later although the place was excessively damp, causing the deterioration of his vestments.

Of course there are thousands of Saints who are incorruptible but who can explain the reasons for this strange dispensation, which affects so many Holy persons, who, moreover, represent many nations and who lived in various environmental conditions?
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How come no mention of his incorrupability is mentioned in teh Catholic Encyclopedia?
 
Valke2 said:
How come no mention of his incorrupability is mentioned in teh Catholic Encyclopedia?
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Don’t know and who cares? I have well documented cases, if you’d like me to tell you where the information is from.
 
Righteousone said:
Don’t know and who cares? I have well documented cases, if you’d like me to tell you where the information is from.
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I’m asking why it isn’t included in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Is there a reason they left this out? What is the Church’s position, if any, on the incorruptability of certain saints?
 
Righteousone said:
Don’t know and who cares? I have well documented cases, if you’d like me to tell you where the information is from.
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I care. I would like more information from credible sources (that’s why I refer to the Catholic Encyclopedia often).

-Mark
 
Valke2 said:
I’m asking why it isn’t included in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Is there a reason they left this out? What is the Church’s position, if any, on the incorruptability of certain saints?
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No reason Valke, why make something out of nothing? The Catholic church is a witness to these incorruptible saints as bearing witness to Jesus christ. It represents the Holiness of our Catholic faith that it is indeed the religion of Jesus Christ.
 
I don’t believe that’s an actual picture of her at the time or after her death. Unless photography was more advanced that I thought it was in 1879. But this seems to be the most well documented case.
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Valke2,

The picture above is a new picture of her. In this link, hold your mouse over the picture, and it will give you the old picture taken at the time of her death in 1879.
If you know, what was she made a saint for?
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I’m not sure what was written about her in her canonization for Sainthood, but she is the person whom Our Lady appeared to at Lourdes. My Roman Catholic brethren on this forum might know more about the answer to your question, so I defer to them.

God bless,

Rony
 
ronyodish said:
Valke2,

The picture above is a new picture of her. In this link, hold your mouse over the picture, and it will give you the old picture taken at the time of her death in 1879.

I’m not sure what was written about her in her canonization for Sainthood, but she is the person whom Our Lady appeared to at Lourdes. My Roman Catholic brethren on this forum might know more about the answer to your question, so I defer to them.

God bless,

Rony
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Idk, many people are canonized merely for being good people or martyrs. Some have never even done a miracle. Although the only example that I can think of off the top of my head is St. Thomas More.
 
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