Prove it!

[guanophore]

be careful before you ‘throw stones’!!! You could be looking in a mirror.

Another person who think the CC has done the work of the Holy Spirit.

Now you are placing the CC above the Bible. WOW???

No, the Apostles taught that the Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures are equal. The Church produced the Bible, but she is also subject to it.

Do you think the Catholic Church has not done the work of the HS?

 

[guanophore]

When did you either change your name or go back to an ‘original’ version of your name? I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s. The Catholic Church was called by its members the Roman Catholic Church. Ask what church you belongs to, friends would say the Roman Catholic Church.

That is most likely because the only Rite with which you were acquainted was the Latin Rite. It is the most common in America. There are 22 other CAtholic Rites that are not Latin (Roman) that are all in communion with the successor of Peter.

• I think I may understand why you don’t want to be called RCC. The RCC seems to only go back to Constintine. That would be a problem for CC if it can’t trace itself back to the 1st century.

it only goes back to Constantine in the imagination of her enemies - those who like to make up stories to discredit the work of God.

You are right, it woudl be a problem for the Catholic Church if she could not trace herself back to Christ, her founder. We would bre in as much problems as those churches invented during the Reformation!

 

[guanophore]

From ones fruits one can tell a believer its not less for a Church bound to Christ’s name. I would say your very history defies the claim I don’t need more than that as proof.

You have refuted your own accusation at the last. Sinful men have committed all these atrocities, abandonig the teaching of the Church and turning their back upon Christ and His Holy Bride, the Church. When they sin in these ways, they separate themselves from unity and communion with the Church.

It makes no more sense to lay their sins upon the Church than it does to blame Jesus because Judas betrayed Him.

 

[guanophore]

The letters that make up the Bible were written centuries before the formal CC.​

You seem to be placing the Sacred Tradition above the power of the Holy Spirit to take sinners and use them miraculously.

It seems that you have been misinformed about the early Church, Doki. The Catholic church became “formal” on Pentecost. It has been Catholic ever since.

By the way, it had nothing to do with Constantine.

Sacred Tradition IS the power of the HS to take fallible men and use them miraculously. this is exactly what infallibility means.

 

[guanophore]

The New Testament does not tell us to pray to the saints; it tells us to pray for each believer because, as saints (all true believers), we all need help.​

The NT doesn’t say what the CC believe about the Eucharist.​

The NT doesn’t say that Mary was. immaculately conceived.​

You seem to be laboring under a misunderstanding that the NT is supposed to contain everything pertaining to the Christian life.

The NT does have these things. You don’t see them, because you read it with anti-catholic blinders over your eyes.

However, the Catholic faith does not come from the Bible. It was delivered to the Church by the Apostles, and was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. The NT REFLECTS what the Catholic Church believes and teaches, but is not the Source of it. Jesus, the Founder, is the Source.

 

[guanophore]

Sounds like the Cathlic Church has its denominations too. (called rites.)

No. Denominations are those that distinguished themselves FROM the CAtholic faith. All Denominations define themselves by how they differ from the original (Catholic) faith.

All the Rites embrace unity in doctrine.

Demoninations have various doctrines.

 

[guanophore]

I was never Catholic. What I know about what the CC believes about these issues have been explained to me by those on this forum. I compared the explanations with the Bible and I get a different understanding as I compare Scripture with Itself, not taking tradition of men.

No, I think you got some of that info elsewhere. I dont’ think anyone on CAF would tell you that “the formal CC did not start until Constantine”. :dts:

Sacred Tradition is not of men,but of God. That is why it is infallible.

 

[guanophore]

I agree God uses sinners and as Paul said: he was nothing, Peter was nothing and neither was Apollos anything. Paul said God was everything. You make your church leaders ‘something’. Dangerous, IMO.​

There’s no ‘real’ evidence from the NT that the early church practiced infant baptism. There is little in the NT that indicates Mary was to be venerated. She isn’t mentioned in the epistles (to my knowledge).

It seems very important to you somehow to disqualify and discredit the Catholic Church. Why is that?

 

[guanophore]

As I said, no REAL evidence from the New Testament that the early (and I guess I must add - 1st century church) practiced infant baptism. Doesn’t the Bible say repent and be baptised? Babies can’t repent.

The NT records adults coming to Jesus.

It was not until those adults had kids that they wanted to bring them to the saving blood of Jesus, to which we are joined in baptism.

They all understood that baptism replaced circumcision as the entrance Rite into the new kingdom.

 

[guanophore]

Superficially you may be correct, however ALL concervative Christians have core beliefs.

Yes, to that extent, they have retained the Apostolic faith contained in the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

If Mary was as you believe and you say the ‘early’ church believed what you believe, then yes they’d mention it in the epistles. You make it quite central to your beliefs.

I think you are very uneducated about the history of the Christian faith. Do you know the origin of the title given to our blessed Mother of Theotokos?

how come, if the triune Godhead is so central to our faith, we can;t find the word Trinity in Scripture?

Why don’t we find the hypostatic union?

Where is the list of books that belongs in the NT?

 

[guanophore]

I have none and what the 2nd century church believed in not relevant if it’s different from the church of Paul, Peter, John, James, etc.

Hmmm. So, when did the Church go off the rails?

What caused Jesus to become so weak and disinterested in the Church He founded that He chose to go back on His promise, and left them orphaned? What made Him decide not to come to them, after all?

when did the HS become so powerless that He could not any longer lead the Church into all Truth?

 

[guanophore]

My household have been baptised all of us as teenagers or older. To believe infants were baptised using the NT verses you did would mean you have proof that the families mention had babies at the time. I think caution must be made to pull understanding that is not present.

Right. Better to assume that families have no children!

 

[PRmerger]

I’ll hold my tongue on this one.

As you wish.

However, I have no idea what this is even about!

 

[PRmerger]

When someone tells me that I’d leave a church because a pastor doesn’t teach something correctly is not discussing my beliefs but my practice. Very different from showing me from the Bible where my understanding may be incorrect.

Yes. We may discuss all manifestations of your Christian systemology–your doctrines, your rituals, your practices, your opinions, your personal interpretations of Scripture, your extra-biblical beliefs etc etc etc in this forum. That’s why we’re here, yes?

 

[Leslie_Polley]

So the Holy Spirit either wasn’t actually left by Jesus to lead His followers like Jesus said or the Holy Spirit was unable to do the job if the pope lead’s the church of Jesus of Nazareth. Is this new teaching? I can’t open my mind around anything like this.​

One beautiful thing about God’s Holy Bible, we don’t have to trace church leadership back through the centuries, we can go back to the source, Jesus, directly. Remember there is One Mediator between God and us, the Man Jesus.

Amen

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Right. Better to assume that families have no children!

you should never assume anything …you know what they say about those who make assumptions…

 

[Dokimas]

Yes. We may discuss all manifestations of your Christian systemology–your doctrines, your rituals, your practices, your opinions, your personal interpretations of Scripture, your extra-biblical beliefs etc etc etc in this forum. That’s why we’re here, yes?

I don’t know why you’re here. To tell us, please.

I’d be honored to tell you what I believe the Bible says on any topic for which I have a personal understanding.​

What extra-Biblical beliefs are you speaking about?​

I don’t believe I speak about my practices or rituals. They are worthless you anyone but me.​

I guess when you and I discuss the Bible, I give my understanding (opinion) and you give what the CC teaches.

 

[Dokimas]

No, I think you got some of that info elsewhere. I dont’ think anyone on CAF would tell you that “the formal CC did not start until Constantine”. :dts:

Sacred Tradition is not of men,but of God. That is why it is infallible.

I didn’t say anyone in the CC said the formal CC started at Constantine. Of course you’d not believe that or entertain that. I think it may be helpful to go back to my original statement and look for the context of may statement. There’s much about history that we differ on when it comes to the CC. That’s a different discussion that what I was commenting on.​

I guess you hope your Sacred Traditions are from God.

 

[Dokimas]

It seems very important to you somehow to disqualify and discredit the Catholic Church. Why is that?

It’s very important to you that all the CC is correct. I have no problem with the CC. Of course I disagree with some of its teaching as they are extra-Biblical seeing as they are Sacred Traditions.