Prove it!

[tweetymom]

Not at all. The term has become one that refers to denomination. hence why I will not use it. I label myself Catholic because I am a member (albeit in poor standing at the moment) of Christs visible Church. It is not hypocritical to say I will not label myself as something I am not (in regards to the current modernist usage of the term). If the term ever comes back to the true meaning of being born again of water and the spirit to serve Christ (as I am sure many people use it) then I will begin to use it again. But so long as it is understood as referring to that particular “brand” of Christianity it is anathema to me as a label.

We are not casting stones. We are correcting one of our members (or claims to be)who is in error. Jesus commanded us to do this, so we do.

Whom you BELIEVE to be in error. Underline the you. If I need correcting it will not be you it will Jesus and I don’t think you are there yrt, or He left you in charge. You think the Church is in charge because you choose to believe so. But hey thanks for all your sweet and loving ways that show what Christ’s love is. May His light shine upon you and Merry Christmas

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Ah, I mistyped. I meant to say that the difference is that you believe you and your church can’t be wrong on such issues. I’d caution you that this is quite a potentially danerous position.

I know… A bit of black humor on my part. Sorry for that. Again, very tired at present.

It you stand by your comments about what I think about Mary, you have no clue. Please don’t continue to be untruthful to yourself.

There is no untruth here. I felt once as you feel now.

I cant remember whose sig it was but it said “We are now what you once were. how can yesterdays orthodoxy be todays heresy?”

Actually, wasn’t the correct word, “Feed My sheep.” Of course you could be speaking of another verse.

The “his sheep” to whom I was referring was the followers of Christ. If you can accept that then you see the Primacy of Peter and the necessit yof submission to him. As sheep follow a shepherd we are called to follow the man who sits on the chair of Peter, just as the Jews were called to follow the commands of those who sat in the seat of Moses.

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

When both members in a marriage agree to celibacy it is NOT a bad thing. It is NOT mean, cruel, or any variant thereof. To assume that marriages must always include sex is to force your views into the Bible and upon Gods word. Can you cite me a reference for where the Bible says that marriage and sex go together like a horse and carriage?

Okaaaay…now your just being silly! This is real life. Not let’s make up the most outrageous example you can and then back it up in the bible. Can you quote me a reference in the bible that says speaks of people in any marriage have remained celibate for there ENTIRE marriage as a means to display sacrifice? Of course not. Could a couple choose celibacy for a period of time for a sacrifice - sure. For their entire marriage…again, why get married? (Let’s see, I’m going to get married and not have sex to sacrifice…what?)

How about this…Let’s talk to the Pope and tell him to consider letting your priests marry and remain celibate. (Wouldn’t make sense would it? Even the Pope would call the men in the white coats to take us away.)

Did Mary and Joseph remain celibate? Nope…nada…uh uh. Bible says so. Read back through the thread and you can see the argument shot down time and time again. We even discussed the usage of the word “until” until no one could comment anymore.

I think we could debate this “until” the cows come home!

(I gotta tell you this would be some home group / bible study if we met in real life!)

Ok - going offline…got some more Christmas shopping to do. See you later.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Whom you BELIEVE to be in error. Underline the you. If I need correcting it will not be you it will Jesus and I don’t think you are there yrt, or He left you in charge. You think the Church is in charge because you choose to believe so. But hey thanks for all your sweet and loving ways that show what Christ’s love is. May His light shine upon you and Merry Christmas

Whom I know to be in error. If you are a Catholic you must submit to the Pope. You refuse to accept that. And No, I am not now nor ever will be Jesus. Yet when one of the members of his Church espouses views different than the man God put in place to “feed my sheep” (thanks for the correction Dokimas) then that person is in error. No two ways around it. Did your father never say “As long as you live under my roof you will abide by my rules”? Perhaps I a bit more rebellious than you were, but I heard that WAY more often than I care to admit. The same applies here. When Christ says something, if you want to be under his roof, you do it. To include submission to Peter (whatever you bind on earth… etc)

Again, sorry but I will not speak anything but the truth in this. Where a person consistently and persistently goes against the church that person should be put out (again, according to Christ himself if I remember rightly)

 

[tweetymom]

Okaaaay…now your just being silly! This is real life. Not let’s make up the most outrageous example you can and then back it up in the bible. Can you quote me a reference in the bible that says speaks of people in any marriage have remained celibate for there ENTIRE marriage as a means to display sacrifice? Of course not. Could a couple choose celibacy for a period of time for a sacrifice - sure. For their entire marriage…again, why get married? (Let’s see, I’m going to get married and not have sex to sacrifice…what?)

How about this…Let’s talk to the Pope and tell him to consider letting your priests marry and remain celibate. (Wouldn’t make sense would it? Even the Pope would call the men in the white coats to take us away.)

Did Mary and Joseph remain celibate? Nope…nada…uh uh. Bible says so. Read back through the thread and you can see the argument shot down time and time again. We even discussed the usage of the word “until” until no one could comment anymore.

I think we could debate this “until” the cows come home!

(I gotta tell you this would be some home group / bible study if we met in real life!)

Ok - going offline…got some more Christmas shopping to do. See you later.

Great post and Merry Christmas to you and your family

 

[tweetymom]

Whom I know to be in error. If you are a Catholic you must submit to the Pope. You refuse to accept that. And No, I am not now nor ever will be Jesus. Yet when one of the members of his Church espouses views different than the man God put in place to “feed my sheep” (thanks for the correction Dokimas) then that person is in error. No two ways around it. Did your father never say “As long as you live under my roof you will abide by my rules”? Perhaps I a bit more rebellious than you were, but I heard that WAY more often than I care to admit. The same applies here. When Christ says something, if you want to be under his roof, you do it. To include submission to Peter (whatever you bind on earth… etc)

Again, sorry but I will not speak anything but the truth in this. Where a person consistently and persistently goes against the church that person should be put out (again, according to Christ himself if I remember rightly)

I was never told that. Glad you are not Jesus, in more ways than one. And I hold to the Bible period.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Okaaaay…now your just being silly! This is real life. Not let’s make up the most outrageous example you can and then back it up in the bible. Can you quote me a reference in the bible that says speaks of people in any marriage have remained celibate for there ENTIRE marriage as a means to display sacrifice? Of course not. Could a couple choose celibacy for a period of time for a sacrifice - sure. For their entire marriage…again, why get married? (Let’s see, I’m going to get married and not have sex to sacrifice…what?) The custom at the time was that temple virgins would be given in marriage to older men for safekeeping. WITHOUT MARITAL RELATIONS. discussed many times in this thread…

How about this…Let’s talk to the Pope and tell him to consider letting your priests marry and remain celibate. (Wouldn’t make sense would it? Even the Pope would call the men in the white coats to take us away.) Well there is actually nothing theologically wrong with priests being married. Its happend before and could happen again. Do I think it ever will? No. Because celibacy is possible only through the grace of God. Why take a gift from God away from someone? Allow them to struggle through it and grow in faith and Grace.

Did Mary and Joseph remain celibate? Nope…nada…uh uh. Bible says so. Read back through the thread and you can see the argument shot down time and time again. We even discussed the usage of the word “until” until no one could comment anymore.
Again, something that has been discussed more often than it should need to be. Until does not mean that the antithesis is true, only that the thesis is true. that truth was ignored, not shot down.

I think we could debate this “until” the cows come home!

(I gotta tell you this would be some home group / bible study if we met in real life!)

I think that if this were in person lots of us (myself included) would have stormed out in a huff. But it would be (and has been) one of the best conversations/studies I would ever experience.

Ok - going offline…got some more Christmas shopping to do. See you later.

 

[tweetymom]

FidesSpesCarita:
Like I said great post ! Oh and thank you for rerunning it so I could read it again and say great post!

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I was never told that. Glad you are not Jesus, in more ways than one. And I hold to the Bible period.

If you hold to the Bible period then you should submit to Peter and his chair. Period. Christ commanded one man to lead his his sheep. To ignore that command is to ignore Christ. To ignore Christ is a dangerous thing.

And about the “I am not Christ” thing, I read your post as insinuating that I thought I was Christ. If I read it wrong, then I apologize.

 

[tweetymom]

If you hold to the Bible period then you should submit to Peter and his chair. Period. Christ commanded one man to lead his his sheep. To ignore that command is to ignore Christ. To ignore Christ is a dangerous thing.

And about the “I am not Christ” thing, I read your post as insinuating that I thought I was Christ. If I read it wrong, then I apologize.

You are wrong! apoligy accepted. I meant that you are not the judge of me. Jesus did not die and leave you in charge. We are to study to show ourselves approved, and Jesus is in charge of me.

 

[Dokimas]

You read into verses more than is written and therein lies your error.

You say I read into the Matthew 1:25 meaning not there. Okay, help me understand the following and please don’t avoid answering ‘yes’ or ‘no’. After your ‘yes’ or ‘no’ feel free to comment

** Mt 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until
<2193- hoes> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”**
– Did Joseph, Mary and Jesus stay in Egypt? Yes or No.

** Mt 2:15 and was there until <2193> the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”**
– Again, did Joseph, Mary and Jesus stay in Egypt?​

** Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until <2193> the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”**
– Did Jesus intend for the vision to be kept secret after He was raised from the dead?

Mt 1:25 and did not know her till <2193> she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.
– Notice this verse is very much like the first three. Is it reading into this verse the same type of meaning that is in the first three?

Let’s think about the term ‘first born’. I’ve asked a question before and I haven’t seen a response. I’ll give the answer now — I asked if God had more than one Begotten Son and if we know the answer, how do we know? The answer is that He had only One Begotten Son and we know because the Holy Spirit clearly said ‘Only Begotten Son’ several times.
----- IS IT READING into the verse, in light of the fact the Holy Spirit made it real clear God only had One Begotten Son that if The Holy Spirit used ‘first born Son’ that Jesus was Mary’s first son but not the last?​

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

You are wrong! apoligy accepted. I meant that you are not the judge of me. Jesus did not die and leave you in charge. We are to study to show ourselves approved, and Jesus is in charge of me.

If you truly believe that I am wrong about the Pope then you are absolutely wrong to consider yourself a Catholic. I dont know how you can justify it. Can you explain why and how you are a Catholic?

 

[Dokimas]

How about this…Let’s talk to the Pope and tell him to consider letting your priests marry and remain celibate. (Wouldn’t make sense would it? Even the Pope would call the men in the white coats to take us away.)

Ok - going offline…got some more Christmas shopping to do. See you later.

Good point. Very interesting.

BTW, if you’ve lost my address, you’ll need me to send it to you so you can send me all those presents, won’t you?

Merry Christmas.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

You say I read into the Matthew 1:25 meaning not there. Okay, help me understand the following and please don’t avoid answering ‘yes’ or ‘no’. After your ‘yes’ or ‘no’ feel free to comment

** Mt 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until
<2193- hoes> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”**
– Did Joseph, Mary and Jesus stay in Egypt? Yes or No.
Asked and answered previously. no.
** Mt 2:15 and was there until <2193> the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”**
– Again, did Joseph, Mary and Jesus stay in Egypt?
Asked and answered previously. No​

** Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until <2193> the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”**
– Did Jesus intend for the vision to be kept secret after He was raised from the dead?
Asked and answered. No.

Mt 1:25 and did not know her till <2193> she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.
– Notice this verse is very much like the first three. Is it reading into this verse the same type of meaning that is in the first three?
Yes you are reading into this, because there are many other verses using the word till or until (interchangeable) that do NOT signify the antithesis coming. The bible is a whole, not pieces. It must be taken as such. Please do not take a few examples that match your views and exclude the ones that do not.​

Let’s think about the term ‘first born’. I’ve asked a question before and I haven’t seen a response. I’ll give the answer now — I asked if God had more than one Begotten Son and if we know the answer, how do we know? The answer is that He had only One Begotten Son and we know because the Holy Spirit clearly said ‘Only Begotten Son’ several times.
----- IS IT READING into the verse, in light of the fact the Holy Spirit made it real clear God only had One Begotten Son that if The Holy Spirit used ‘first born Son’ that Jesus was Mary’s first son but not the last?

Asked and answered. Firstborn refers to the the womb opener, not the first of many. It was a title, not a descriptive term. Do not impose your views into the bible Check with history for what things like this mean before you decide what you think they mean.

 

[tweetymom]

FidesSpesCarita:
Great post and thank you for rerunning it.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Man, I thought there was a thousand post limit? I like that this thread isnt closed yet…

 

[tweetymom]

If you truly believe that I am wrong about the Pope then you are absolutely wrong to consider yourself a Catholic. I dont know how you can justify it. Can you explain why and how you are a Catholic?

Thank you for your judgement call and May God Bless you as you continue. I was half raised Catholic and half nothing. Had to find my own way when I was 38. I found it and am truly happy that I did. My now husband is Catholic and I came back when we married. I do not hold to everything because I have studied for years and I know the truth. One question for you since you believe as you do why does God answer prayers of say people like me or Dokimas? If the Catholic church is the only true way why does God do this?

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Thank you for your judgement call and May God Bless you as you continue. I was half raised Catholic and half nothing. Had to find my own way when I was 38. I found it and am truly happy that I did. My now husband is Catholic and I came back when we married. I do not hold to everything because I have studied for years and I know the truth. One question for you since you believe as you do why does God answer prayers of say people like me or Dokimas? If the Catholic church is the only true way why does God do this?

Well, my kneejerk, jerkish reaction (which is not my honest opinion, but I have been an A*hole for a long time and its a hard habit to break) is too rude to post here.

My honest answer is that God is Love. Love does for others with no expectation of return. Even those who fight the will of God actively will be shown mercy because mercy is one of the inevitable outcomes of Love. Thank God for being a Loving God.

Just to get some things straight in my head, so I can stop assuming, on what points do you disagree with the CC? What points are we wrong? I know you think Mary had other children, but other points I havent read your opinion (or may have glossed over it in my unfortunate zeal).

 

[tweetymom]

Well, my kneejerk, jerkish reaction (which is not my honest opinion, but I have been an A*hole for a long time and its a hard habit to break) is too rude to post here.

My honest answer is that God is Love. Love does for others with no expectation of return. Even those who fight the will of God actively will be shown mercy because mercy is one of the inevitable outcomes of Love. Thank God for being a Loving God.

Just to get some things straight in my head, so I can stop assuming, on what points do you disagree with the CC? What points are we wrong? I know you think Mary had other children, but other points I havent read your opinion (or may have glossed over it in my unfortunate zeal).

Didn’t answer my question.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Didn’t answer my question.

Absolutely did. Read the second paragraph.