Proving the Historical Accuracy of Tobit (Tobias)

[NotWorthy]

I believe that people who believe in evolution and such are not giving God the credit He is due. I believe that they are underestimating He and His creation.

And I also believe that they are cheating themselves out of having faith as a child.

Then you believe that the Catholic Church (which you hold the faith of) is cheating others out of having the faith as a child? That’s bold!

And I still stand on what I have pointed out that if you punch holes in a bag, it is impossible to sell the bag as a whole bag. The same goes with the Truth of God’s Word…which is what the Bible is. If you punch all kinds of holes in it, claiming it isn’t factual…when it totally reads factual…then it makes no sense for someone who is not a Christian to believe in the actuality of any of it.
LOTR is obviously a fictional book. Just because they use symbolism does not make it a book of truth.

But does the LOTR have some very strong truths in it?

The Bible is a book of TRUTH. You are trying to use supposed symbolism to make it fiction.

Please explain this statement further.

And you don’t seem to realize what you are doing. I do not believe you mean to try to discredit the TRUTH. But your “human reasoning” is working against you in this.

How does this affect my faith. I have a profound love for the Bible. It’s not just a passing fancy. It’s something I spend a great deal of time with every day.

I could easily say that it makes no difference for you, me or any other established Christian to believe the 1 billion year creation or the 6 day creation. But it matters very much in evangelizing…which is the mission of all Christians.

Tell that to our good Mother Church, please.

What do you say to the athiest or hindu who is questioning you about the TRUTH? They say, “where do you get your information?” You say, “Tradition and the Bible”. They say, “Where did this Bible of Truth come from?” you say, “It is many books put together by the Church under the inspiration and direction of the Holy Spirit Who is God.”

They say, “So you believe that the world was created in 6 days?” you say, “No, I believe it is human beings way of explaining it to the best of their ability.”

They say, “Do you believe in Jonah being swallowed by a big fish?” you say, “No, that is just a story for the lesson it teaches.”

They say “Do you believe in the story as written about Noah and the Ark?” you say, “No, that is just another story to teach a lesson, or maybe some of it happened, but certainly not the way it is described in the Bible.”

They say, “Do you believe in the Annunciation, the Passion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus of Nazareth?”
You say, “Yes, of course”

They say…“But the only historical records you have of these events in the life of this man are found in this Bible which you, yourself are telling me are only full of good stories made up by man to teach a good lesson. Or else they are told by God as the Truth, and then you are telling me that they are not true. So why in the world should I give even another thought to Christianity. The God you worship sounds condescending and decieving.”

So you distort the facts as the Church knows it just to make evangelizing easier?!?! No, you tell them the Truth as you know it and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. I would hate to tell someone something that the Church doesn’t teach as the Full Truth only because its easier.

I’ll stick to the Truth as the Church knows it. Obedience is a wonderful thing.

 

[donalddon5]

My only question in response is why does God go through all the trouble of creating dinosaur bones and them burying them? Is it to test the faith of people 1600 years after Christ? (I’m assuming that’s when dinosaur bones were first becoming discovered… the actual date is irrelevant).

Excellent question.I really do not have an accurate answer in the propose question and that being that I would have to be one of the Trinity to answer. But I do see what your question propose; my response is very simple and that is he (GOD) does not give any date lines and also it is as the New Covenant says: a second is as if a thousand years to God or something like that.

Now your argument is as far as I can see it is this: God the Almighty took more then 6 days for creation, in-fact you are actually saying it took millions of years or longer. Well, Okay but how about this: The World has been around since it was just a mass of gas and the lord created what he wanted out of it in 6 days. How long did Adam and Eve live, after all it was a perfect paradise. Death did not exist or any of the curses which man brought down upon his head such as aging… So, maybe he live all the way through the dinosuares, I do not know.

Any way you look at it, I will not depart from the 6 day theory untill the Holy Roman Catholic Church says different and this my good freind is call my belief. Even if you proven your theory beyond a shadow of a doubt, my Holy Bilble and the Holy Catholic Church does not lie, so you and not I am missing part of the LINK. If you do not want to believe that is you choice, I BELIEVE.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

You keep repeating the same mantra and it’s plain off.Not my fallible reasoning - but reasoning of Divino Spiritu Afflante, and Dei verbum and of my Bible School run by my diocese. And why wouldn’t they believe in the words of Jesus -your reasoning is unclear.I believe the words of Jesus and my students do- so your speculation is just that-mere speculation.If I don’t believe the truth in the Bible why would I spend four years in school and 5 yrs studying and teaching? I suggest you read an article on this website called 5 myths about 7 books and a book on the parables.

So tell me this. Jesus talks about Jonah in the belly of the fish for three days as though it is a totally true and historically accurate story…and about Noah and the Flood as historically accurate events.
Do you teach that these things actually happened the way that the Bible and Jesus taught…or not?

 

[diggerdomer]

So tell me this. Jesus talks about Jonah in the belly of the fish for three days as though it is a totally true and historically accurate story…and about Noah and the Flood as historically accurate events.
Do you teach that these things actually happened the way that the Bible and Jesus taught…or not?

I teach (adults, in our Roman Catholic diocesan adult education program) that it could have happened that way, but what the important truths that God is offering us are not based on a simple literal reading. We read the story…as Catholics…literally as well as spiritually, morally, and allegorically. I teach them…as the Catholic Church does…that they are free to interpret that story as historical truth (i.e. a real person really named Jonah was really in the belly of a big fish for a really 3x24 hour period) or not. I’ve been teaching them this for years, again as part of our diocesan program which of course the Bishop oversees.

Can you please respond to the number of questions that have been asked of your previous messages that have gone unanswered?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

But what good is a lesson if it’s false? Shouldn’t lessons teach us truth?

***A lesson might not always teach a truth. And that is irrelevant. If I spank my child and figure he has learned his lesson to obey me, yet I do not stay consistant, there is no truth to the lesson.

---

You know what? They might. But that’s why we have a Living, Teaching Church to tell us otherwise.

If the Church’s teaching is backed up with a book of mere fables, why should anyone convert to Her as though She is the True Faith?

 

[juliamajor]

I didn’t ask why people taught in parables. I asked why Jesus identified them as parables, yet they are not identified as such in the other books if parables are their ways of teaching the lesson of Tobit, Judith, Jonah, Creation, Noah, etc.

And why would they not assume that the Annunciation, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus of Nazareth isn’t just another story? After all, Jesus and Peter talk about Noah as though it were a very real event. And Jesus mentions Jonah also…and He mentions it as a very real event.
So what you would be telling people is that they should only believe in the accuracy of the parts of the Bible that YOUR fallible human reasoning tells them that they should? For they certainly cannot believe the words of Jesus according to you.

.In literature not every book is identified with ‘this is fiction’ or " this is non-fiction"lines and genres can blur and that which is fiction seems like fact and visa-versa. Ancient people had different forms of literature and just because you don’t acknowledge them doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. judith is so very obviously not historically true that folks of the time would have recognized it as a pious fiction. from the Start of the story the history is all off.Why? to make it obvious that this was no history- and being good Jews and knowing there own history they would understand that. Nebuchadnezzar was NOT an Assyrian-Assyrian and Neo- Assyrian empire fell into a different timeframe. The History is the most unimportant thing in the story as in Tobit or Jonah or noah or creation.If people insist on thinking that way they get caught up in web of nonsense while missing the truth of those stories. NOT FACTS- BUT TRUTH. What is the TRUTH in Tobit? IN Genesis?In Judith? In Esther?Reliance on historicity can blind you to the truth. Getting mired in a miasma of unimportant side issues doesn’t improve one’s knowledge of scripture but instead blunts it.

 

[diggerdomer]

If the Church’s teaching is backed up with a book of mere fables, why should anyone convert to Her as though She is the True Faith?

No one should convert because something is backed up by a book of mere fables. That is of course ludicrous.

I’d suggest converting because of love.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Then you believe that the Catholic Church (which you hold the faith of) is cheating others out of having the faith as a child? That’s bold!

The Church sees nothing wrong with my opinion.

But does the LOTR have some very strong truths in it?
***LOTR is a wonderful fictional story based upon Salvation. But I still cannot figure out what that has to do with this subject? Do you compare the stories in the Bible as the same as the story of LOTR? ***

Please explain this statement further.
** You seem to be trying to diminish many factual events in the Bible as being just nice stories that are not factual but are only there to teach a lesson.**

How does this affect my faith. I have a profound love for the Bible. It’s not just a passing fancy. It’s something I spend a great deal of time with every day.
I didn’t say you didn’t have a profound love for the Bible. Is it the same profound love you have for LOTR? For, according to you, they both contain some truths.

Tell that to our good Mother Church, please.

So you distort the facts as the Church knows it just to make evangelizing easier?!?! No, you tell them the Truth as you know it and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. I would hate to tell someone something that the Church doesn’t teach as the Full Truth only because its easier.

Where does it state that the Church doesn’t allow for the belief that the world was created in 6 Days, or that Noah and the Flood are true, factual historical events, or that Jonah was swallowed by a fish and after 3 days was spit out in Ninevah? Where does it state that Tobit and Judith are not historically accurate?

I’ll stick to the Truth as the Church knows it. Obedience is a wonderful thing.

Where does the Church teach that it is against the Truth to believe the Bible as totally historically accurate?

 

[Spirithound]

Jesus N Cherie:

A lesson might not always teach a truth. And that is irrelevant. If I spank my child and figure he has learned his lesson to obey me, yet I do not stay consistant, there is no truth to the lesson.

Is our God one that spanks once and then fails to be consistent? If the lessons of the Bible are from God, then they must teach a truth.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

.In literature not every book is identified with ‘this is fiction’ or " this is non-fiction"lines and genres can blur and that which is fiction seems like fact and visa-versa. Ancient people had different forms of literature and just because you don’t acknowledge them doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. judith is so very obviously not historically true that folks of the time would have recognized it as a pious fiction. from the Start of the story the history is all off.Why? to make it obvious that this was no history- and being good Jews and knowing there own history they would understand that. Nebuchadnezzar was NOT an Assyrian-Assyrian and Neo- Assyrian empire fell into a different timeframe. The History is the most unimportant thing in the story as in Tobit or Jonah or noah or creation.If people insist on thinking that way they get caught up in web of nonsense while missing the truth of those stories. NOT FACTS- BUT TRUTH. What is the TRUTH in Tobit? IN Genesis?In Judith? In Esther?Reliance on historicity can blind you to the truth. Getting mired in a miasma of unimportant side issues doesn’t improve one’s knowledge of scripture but instead blunts it.

Yet, there are very important things that Jesus said in relation to these “fictional” stories. If you do not believe in the historical accuracy of them, then you miss the important message and lesson that Jesus wants to teach you in relation to them.
The Jews obviously believed in the historical accuracy of Jonah and the fish. This is shown in their reaction to Jesus telling them that, like Jonah in the belly of the fish, He would be in the tomb for 3 days.

If the historical accuracy is of so little importance, why have you spent so much time debating the point with me?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

.In literature not every book is identified with ‘this is fiction’ or " this is non-fiction"lines and genres can blur and that which is fiction seems like fact and visa-versa. Ancient people had different forms of literature and just because you don’t acknowledge them doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. judith is so very obviously not historically true that folks of the time would have recognized it as a pious fiction. from the Start of the story the history is all off.Why? to make it obvious that this was no history- and being good Jews and knowing there own history they would understand that. Nebuchadnezzar was NOT an Assyrian-Assyrian and Neo- Assyrian empire fell into a different timeframe. The History is the most unimportant thing in the story as in Tobit or Jonah or noah or creation.If people insist on thinking that way they get caught up in web of nonsense while missing the truth of those stories. NOT FACTS- BUT TRUTH. What is the TRUTH in Tobit? IN Genesis?In Judith? In Esther?Reliance on historicity can blind you to the truth. Getting mired in a miasma of unimportant side issues doesn’t improve one’s knowledge of scripture but instead blunts it.

Yet, there are very important things that Jesus said in relation to these “fictional” stories. If you do not believe in the historical accuracy of them, then you miss the important message and lesson that Jesus wants to teach you in relation to them.
The Jews obviously believed in the historical accuracy of Jonah and the fish. This is shown in their reaction to Jesus telling them that, like Jonah in the belly of the fish, He would be in the tomb for 3 days.

If the historical accuracy is of so little importance, why have you spent so much time debating the point with me? And why do you not just believe the Bible as it is written if the historical accuracy truly doesn’t matter? And what points do you think I am missing in the stories of Tobit, Judith, Noah, Jonah? What do you think you have recieved from those stories that people who believe that they are historically accurate do not recieve?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

No one should convert because something is backed up by a book of mere fables. That is of course ludicrous.

I’d suggest converting because of love.

But where does one find the story of Divine Love? The Bible. To call it mere fable would be to ask someone to fall in love with Cinderella as though she were a real person. That is ludicrous.

Why does one believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? It is backed up by tradition and the Bible. If the Bible is full of great fables, where is the credit for the source?

 

[diggerdomer]

Where does the Church teach that it is against the Truth to believe the Bible as totally historically accurate?

I don’t think it does. I think (I may be wrong) that the Church is wonderfully liberal in allowing individuals the prerogative to believe every word in the Bible is literal truth.

But what’s important is that the Church does not teach that everything in the Bible is “historically” accurate. Thankfully (and again imho liberally) the Church does not require us to believe everything is “literally” true.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Is our God one that spanks once and then fails to be consistent? If the lessons of the Bible are from God, then they must teach a truth.

I agree. But a heathen will easily be able to say that if the Bible is full of fables, then it isn’t consistant with Truth. It is inconsistant because fables are not true…irregardless of the lesson.

 

[donalddon5]

Some of the anti-accuracy of Tobit are making claims base on thin air.

First, a lot of Tobit is mystical in nature. That in and of itself is only proven via the Holy Spirit and in no other way. If the Spirit of God does not testified to them then so be it.

Second, Catholic history is much more then worldly history, for instance what is Evolution to the world would be something in the nature of a Bird evolves from a Fish or a Man from an Ape; whereas, in Catholic evolution it would be more a long the line of the unseen such as man was very much animistic until the coming of Christ. Good example of this would be the sport of throwing people into arenas with hungry lions or the Aztecs live sacrifices of human beings…today that would be very much psychotic but normal in the time of its occurrences.
Point is what we see as history, the world may be blind too.

 

[diggerdomer]

But where does one find the story of Divine Love? The Bible. To call it mere fable would be to ask someone to fall in love with Cinderella as though she were a real person. That is ludicrous.

Why does one believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? It is backed up by tradition and the Bible. If the Bible is full of great fables, where is the credit for the source?

One finds the story of Divine Love outside the Bible as well.

Your analogy with Cinderella is ludicrous. I didn’t say or claim that one should fall in love with Cinderella as if she were a real person. You are putting words into my mouth (so to speak, in this medium). I in no way presented what you claim. You misunderstood (at least).

Please, if you don’t understand something I type, or want me to clarify, just say so.

Your final statement is something I simply don’t understand. Please clarify.

Why do we believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Precisely for the reasons you (knowingly or not) state: the witness of the Bible and Tradition.

If the Bible contains fables, as a literary genre…so what? I fail to see any inconsistency here, and from everything I’ve read neither does the Catholic Church.

Do you need more references? Try the Catechism para 50-141. Try the Ponticial Biblical Commission. Try Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum). I fully adhere to everything those sources teach.

 

[Spirithound]

I agree. But a heathen will easily be able to say that if the Bible is full of fables, then it isn’t consistant with Truth. It is inconsistant because fables are not true…irregardless of the lesson.

A heathen and I have (at least) one thing in common: our opinion has no effect on reality.

Let’s get back on topic. Do you agree that the lessons the Bible teaches constitute truth?

 

[Luke65]

My only question in response is why does God go through all the trouble of creating dinosaur bones and them burying them? Is it to test the faith of people 1600 years after Christ? (I’m assuming that’s when dinosaur bones were first becoming discovered… the actual date is irrelevant).

Of course not. Most of the fossils we find, including dino bones, are creatures that were buried in the Flood. That’s the whole point: the fossil record is a stark reminder of the consequences of sin. To say that these animals died millions of years before Adam sinned makes God the Author of death and suffering.

“How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame?
How long will you love delusions and seek false gods?
Selah” (Psalm 4:2)

Who should we believe, the false god “Science”, or God, the only eyewitness Who cannot lie?

 

[diggerdomer]

Of course not. Most of the fossils we find, including dino bones, are creatures that were buried in the Flood. That’s the whole point: the fossil record is a stark reminder of the consequences of sin. To say that these animals died millions of years before Adam sinned makes God the Author of death and suffering.

“How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame?
How long will you love delusions and seek false gods?
Selah” (Psalm 4:2)

Who should we believe, the false god “Science”, or God, the only eyewitness Who cannot lie?

I believe God, and I believe in God.

I accept everything I’ve learned in science classes as well.

I believe what science teaches about dinosaur fossils. If you want to believe as you state, that they were buried in the Flood (despite current scientific evidence that opposes that)…that’s fine with me. If you want to believe dinosaur fossils were put here on Earth by aliens, that’s fine with me too. None of these affect theological truths that the Bible teaches us, as God wills.

Are you saying that any theory proposed by science is incredible because God didn’t cause it to be written about in the Bible? Seriously?

You’re free to do that, of course, and if you want to believe that I am ok with that. It’s just not what the Catholic Church teaches (though of course, again, the Church allows those of you who want to believe such things complete freedom in that respect).

 

[Luke65]

If the Church’s teaching is backed up with a book of mere fables, why should anyone convert to Her as though She is the True Faith?

Good point, Cherie. From a new thread:

"The Christian faith faces a number of crushing logical objections. I can no longer hold it in good conscience. I will outline these objections below:

1.) The Bible is not inerrant, neither factually nor morally:…"