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mackbrislawn
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In some times and places, heterosexual fornication was illegal and punishable. Who knows, I wouldn’t be surprised if it still is in some states and countries.
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Rau
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Arguably, it is. But people are not justified in taking the further step of feeling justified in acting in accordance with all their sexual desires - are they?
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Rau
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Like, say, joint bank accounts? I think you understate the point. Sex is the defining aspect of marriage. Marriage is a publicly declared and supported sexual relationship. This is the fundamental reason that “same sex marriage” is unacceptable.
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Rau
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…and rather a large number besides Thor, including large numbers of Lutherans
. The reason I have given is the reason that underpins the assessment (by whomever) that it is unacceptable. Other forms of relationship, non-sexual, and therefore not “marriage”, can be perfectly fine.
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pianistclare
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Please explain this remark.
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nqes7t9
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A few more concerns from me:
In my opinion, are you absolutely sure that “gay conversion therapy” never, ever worked? I think that particular absolute is kind of hard to believe. Doesn’t it seem more likely that “gay conversion therapy” helped, or “worked”, at least for a few people, and at least a tiny itty bit? I think that’s more likely.
Secondly, I want to maintain that sodomy is bad. So are many other kinds of things. Fornication is bad. Masturbation is bad. Pornography is bad. Prostitution is bad. Just because the legal system doesn’t punish sodomy doesn’t mean that sodomy isn’t wrong.
Ultimately, do I think we’re meant for pain and punishment? No, I don’t think so. I think we’re meant for eternal happiness. True love does not involve fear, because fear involves punishment – that’s what one of St. John the Evangelist’s letters says. But part of that happiness has to do with living in accord with the law, natural law, moral law, and divine law, and all the other kinds of good and true laws.
Lastly, I’d like to acknowledge that prison is a terrifying idea for me. It could very well be that, in the particular historical time we live in, prison would be far worse for people who have those kind of inclinations than not. I’m sure that the prison system could use an upgrade, some perhaps desperately needed. But prison is only one kind of punishment that the government can deal out.
Peace to you!
In my opinion, are you absolutely sure that “gay conversion therapy” never, ever worked? I think that particular absolute is kind of hard to believe. Doesn’t it seem more likely that “gay conversion therapy” helped, or “worked”, at least for a few people, and at least a tiny itty bit? I think that’s more likely.
Secondly, I want to maintain that sodomy is bad. So are many other kinds of things. Fornication is bad. Masturbation is bad. Pornography is bad. Prostitution is bad. Just because the legal system doesn’t punish sodomy doesn’t mean that sodomy isn’t wrong.
Ultimately, do I think we’re meant for pain and punishment? No, I don’t think so. I think we’re meant for eternal happiness. True love does not involve fear, because fear involves punishment – that’s what one of St. John the Evangelist’s letters says. But part of that happiness has to do with living in accord with the law, natural law, moral law, and divine law, and all the other kinds of good and true laws.
Lastly, I’d like to acknowledge that prison is a terrifying idea for me. It could very well be that, in the particular historical time we live in, prison would be far worse for people who have those kind of inclinations than not. I’m sure that the prison system could use an upgrade, some perhaps desperately needed. But prison is only one kind of punishment that the government can deal out.
Peace to you!
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Strydersroom
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Using statements like “sodomy is bad, masturbation is bad” really shows a lack of thought and understanding. Oral sex is also sodomy and EVERY straight and gay person I know thinks it really is good, quite spectacular actually. And likewise ask any doctor or teenager if they think masturbation is bad
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mikekle
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I have seen more than a few people claim ‘conversion therapy’ worked for them, of course the secular world will do everything they can to discredit this, because it goes against what they believe in, but imo, the results speak for themselves, you cannot discount those once gay people that really did succeed at converting.
Maybe its the same thing as drug rehab, it doesnt work for everyone, different approaches and methods are needed for different people, but you dont stop doing something if it has helped some. Drug rehabs are still around, courts still send people their to get help, even though majority of people do not succeed at these places and continue using, so its the same thing. I dont see anyone calling for drug rehabs to be shut down because they do not cure everyone 100%.
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Lou2U
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What makes you think it does work? There is no “proof” that it works, but if you google “gay conversion therapy” you’ll find a lot of criticism for it being unethical, and for exploiting a person’s vulnerability.
When I’ve googled the above, this seems to come up: drdoughaldeman.com/doc/ScientificExamination.pdf which gives some statistics for the “success rates” of such treatments - the section headed “A Review of Conversion Methodologies” halfway down page 2.
Personally, I don’t see what good therapy can do. You’re heterosexual. I’m heterosexual. I can’t imagine that being sent to conversion therapy to “fix” being heterosexual would work at all. Do you think being sent to this kind of therapy would change your orientation?
This is sort of my point. Why pick on sodomy? Why should other sins not be punished by the legal system if they are also bad?
It’s also sort of my point in that why should the legal system punish sodomy? What does the legal system gain from this?
Then this leads to a whole host of other problems - which divine law? Which religion should be followed? Which denomination of religion? How much interference should a state have over the private lives of its people? Should people be legally punished for not following divine law?
I can’t see the USA or the UK ever criminalising sodomy. I just can’t see it ever working. And I think that’s a good thing but I don’t think the government should have such a power to punish something that is almost impossible to prove.
I’ve been reading Jung Chang’s “Wild Swans” today. I don’t know if you’ve ever read it or heard of it, but it covers China’s history, particularly during Mao’s rule. During this time, the Cultural Revolution occurred, where people were punished for being “too bourgeoisie”, which led to people making wild accusations just to get revenge for petty happenings. So many were tortured and were killed through this when they were innocent. Anything that could be seen as against Mao or against Communism could lead to a person being arrested and sent to do hard labour for correcting their thoughts. This kind of persecution is what we need to avoid. If we make something a crime which cannot be proven to have taken place, what’s to stop people taking their revenge? If sodomy is legally punishable by law and homosexuality can be changed through therapy, what stops others from taking advantage of this?
No-one should be punished for being homosexual, and I disagree that sodomy should be punished, whether it be by prison or hard labour or community service. The government should not have that much control into people’s private lives. It simply is none of their business, and by extension, none of ours.
Lou
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Strydersroom
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Could not have put in more eloquently. Thanks Lou for your articulate, logical and perfectly accurate post. /end thread
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Peebo
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As Christians there is nothing wrong with admonishing those who practice homosexuality because we as Christians see the practice as a grave sin …but that has to be done in a loving way…not in a judgmental way…that is a sure way to alienate someone…there is also nothing wrong with opposing and protesting laws that we see as against Gods laws…but to apply punishment…or to force them to seek “corrective” treatment…wow…sounds like some Christians would like to apply some sort of Christian “sharia” law to punish them…stone them maybe…why stop at homosexuals…why not adulterers…thieves…blasphemers…etc…better still…heed the words of Jesus…" why do you see the mote in your brothers eye but do not see the beam in your own eye".
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Lou2U
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Sarcelle
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Heterosexuals also engage in sodomy. Will they also be punished? Or is it only the gays?And all those that are supporting this type of law being implemented are the very reason many think Catholics/Christians are anti-gay. Which is obviously not true of church teaching, Catholicism is not anti anyone, it just considers homosexuality to be sinful.
If we’re going to send gays to labor camps, what about everyone having sex outside marriage, or that masturbate, or those who get divorced. Suddenly it sounds absurd because well over half the country would be in the labor camp. But if it’s just those repulsive gays it’s okay, right? Because they are just so icky. The rest of the sinful people are not so bad.
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Rau
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Your statement seems to imply that there is nothing amiss in one who experiences a homosexual orientation. In light of one’s bodily design, which homosexuality contradicts, I would disagree. Something is amiss, though we don’t know what.
If the physical makeup of our body counts for anything, our body is designed for heterosexuality - there seems to be a clear bias evident in our body. If there is a therapy that can be effective in eliminating the homosexual inclination (replacing it with heterosexual), I don’t think it follows that the same therapy would eliminate a heterosexual inclination (replacing it with homosexual). An orientation in tune with the body is a different circumstance (on the face of it) than one that is at odds with the body.
Having said that, as far as I’m aware, there is no generally accepted, effective “treatment” that can change one’s orientation. Certainly individuals have reported successfully turning away from homosexual behaviours.
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Lou2U
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Moving away from the physical aspects of our bodies, surely if gay conversion therapy worked, it should also work the other way around. And of course, turning away from the behaviours does not change the orientation, which gay conversion therapy claims to do. There is certainly no “treatment” I’m aware of - I’m sure if there was, it would have been made known to the public whether through those championing it or those opposing it.
Lou
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Rau
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Why do you “move away from the physical aspects of our body”? It is this which suggests that heterosexuality is the “normal” state, and homosexuality a consequence of some other factor(s). It would seem odd if sexual orientation were an entirely independent “overlay”. That’s why I see no basis to believe a therapy (if one exists) would be equally effective in either direction.
I’ve said essentially that. There are treatments - but to my knowledge, they are not widely accepted nor widely held to be effective.
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openmind77
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How about oral sex? Do you think we should make it illegal and criminalize it?
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Thorolfr
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And of course oral sex was one of the “crimes” that was often included under many state sodomy laws.
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Personanongrata
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No, gays are not asking for “privileges”. Asking for privileges would be something like asking to not pay taxes ---- you know, like CHURCHES…
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