Punishments for Sodomy?

[Lou2U]

@Trident H: thanks, let’s be e-friends.

At the moment I think I’ll try to respond to people’s posts as I feel able:

@Lou2U “Firstly, gay people are not the only ones to engage in this act, so should we stop them from marrying? How do we know if gay couples engage in anal sex? How do we know straight couples don’t?”

I used the word sodomy intending its dictionary meaning: “to have anal sex with someone.” That’s the definition I found on Merriam Webster’s website: merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sodomy which I accessed just now, on 27 June 2016. That would include men having anal sex with women, and that’s what I meant throughout this thread.

Okay. I was wondering, since there has been a focus on homosexual couples and not on hetrosexual couples on this thread.

As for so-called gay marriage: people are asking for gay marriage. What do they mean by that? What are they declaring by their marriage? Two men cannot do what a man and a woman can do. I do not think that a man and a man or a woman and a woman can marry. We need to do what we can to stop them! They are hurting themselves.

I assume what they mean is two people of thr same gender being allowed to marry - as in, to show their commitment to each other and to enjoy the benefits afforded to hetrosexual couples who marry.

I understand that Catholics disagree with gay marriage, and I do not mean to convince you otherwise. The fact remains, however, that in the USA and the UK, homosexual couples can legally marry. You may disagree with it, but they can do so.

As for the “how do we know” aspect: well, if by “gay marriage” its supporters mean “we are having anal sex” then public records (ie records of gay marriage) will show who has had anal sex.

This is a lot of “ifs”. We don’t know that this is what the supporters mean. We don’t know that every homosexual couple has anal sex - if fact, surveys have shown that not all do. This also ignores all the hetrosexual couples having anal sex and puts the focus back onto homosexuals.

“Why does this give anyone the right to persecute others?” All right. From a Christian perspective, our Lord tells us to put down our stones. I understand God as reserving the right to punish to Godself and then, frankly, not really exercising it as we would. At the same time, we have to be mindful that we might have answers to people’s problems! If Christians really do have answers for gay people (“we can work on this so you don’t stay in sodomy”) then we need to tell people about it. I’m not talking about gay conversion therapy, I’m just talking about living the Way of Jesus. I think Jesus can and does offer healing for people. I know this from my own life. I don’t want to go back to any sin! I don’t want to commit any sin in the future, either!

All right. You said in a previous post that gay people should complete hard labour until they show that they have overcome their inclinations. This is what gay conversion therapy was designed to do, not that it worked.

You’re forgetting that not everyone disagrees with anal sex and not everyone wants to work on it to stop having anal sex. In many people’s minds, there is no reason not to.

I think that answers many of Lou2U’s questions and points. I’m sorry that I suggested that people should be punished for what they cannot control. I agree that’s not good, and that’s not what I meant to say or even had in mind.

I guess that’s all I have for now. I don’t think I’m a barbarian and I don’t think my posts are barbaric. However, I was told, and I tend to believe, that as Christians we believe in basically the total opposite of everything the world believes.

Amen!

I think it’s good that you’re willing to discuss this, truly. Thank you for being so polite, as well . I don’t think your posts are barbaric, more misguided .

Lou

 

[nqes7t9]

@ComplineSanFran I think it’s possible that civil law could punish sodomy. It’s happened in the past – so why should it not happen again? Has something changed that means civil law will never, as you say, permit punishment of sodomy?

In fact, it’s happening right now – in certain countries, sodomy is a punishable offense. Do we want that?

Yes, I started this thread thinking about criminalization of sodomy, and in this post I’m going more against that now.

 

[nqes7t9]

@Lou2U Thank you as well.

Thanks for pointing out that not everyone thinks anal sex is bad. To that I would say that every thing has a purpose – and I don’t think the genitalia is purposed to do anal sex. It’s good to do things within their pupose, but bad to violate those purposes. For another example, food is meant to give energy and build and heal the body, but if one uses it to overcome, say, anxiety, or loneliness, or boredom–then that’s a violation of the purpose of food.

The fact that “gay marriage” is legal, in my opinion, reflects badly on the legal system. The legal system has its problems. Not that I think we should disobey laws in general. I think a lot of people would agree that the law is imperfect – else why would we have lobbyists, and lawyers, and activists, and so forth?

Regarding my premise that “gay couples have anal sex” — yes, I agree that that premise is not necessarily true. In fact, I have read that pairs of people who are “gay married” tend not to have anal sex with each other, but tend to have anal sex with others, and then discuss those other relationships with their opposite. I read this in Making Gay Okay: How Rationalizing Homosexual Behavior is Changing Everything by Robert Reilly.

May God bless us all.
n

 

[Trident_H]

@Trident H: thanks, let’s be friends.

You got it buddy. Consider it done.

 

[nqes7t9]

Cool, Trident H!

Trident, I think you asked, “why this one sin?” earlier in the thread. I was thinking about that, and really I don’t know. Sometimes I think my own faultiness makes me over-focused on one thing (lust) and so it appears magnified to me. Other times I wonder if sexuality is more important somehow than other things, and so it deserves my attention or our attention more.

But then other things don’t bear that out…for example, didn’t the poet Dante list lust as the least serious cardinal sin? And some of my favorite saints didn’t seem to make a big deal out of chastity. St Francis was really into his Lady Poverty.

To everyone: I think this question is important even outside of the context of public “punishments” for example, what about bullying in schools? Aren’t gay people receiving punishment at the hands of school bullies? Who’s going to handle the, shall we say, philosophical underpinnings of a defense against bullying?

Now I’m going to go way crazy and “opposite” here – even barbaric – maybe school bullying has its place! “Hey loser, your shirt is untucked.” → result: student tucks in his or her shirt (maybe). Granted, I don’t think an untucked shirt is cause for completely labeling a person as a loser.

I really do not know what school bullying is like; I don’t know what’s going on. I thought I was bullied somewhat – I was said to look gay once because my shirt collar was outside my sweatshirt collar (or so I recall I was told) – but maybe looking back that had some good effect. On the other hand, I still do not take good care of my shirt collar. I think the premise “if one’s shirt collar is a certain way, then that person is gay” is not true.

 

[mikekle]

I believe if God sent a very clear warning that shows he exist, a lot of people will repent bc they don’t want to go to hell. I believe the main problem is that people don’t know that God is really real and he would send someone to hell if they don’t repent.

Yes, I agree, all this means is the bible is not effective in our times, thats pretty clear if more and more people are willing to disobey Gods laws, they either do not believe in him or do not believe what they are doing is wrong.

IN the OT, in these cases, God would send warnings or other ‘signs’ to the people, to kind of get them back on the right track, but he has not done this for a very long time, ( Im also referring to many other popular sins in our time too, not just homosexuality ),so of course, the population is going to go the other way…Im really not sure why he has not intervened or sent some kind of clear message to the modern world?

One would think if so many people are ‘getting it wrong’ or not getting it at all, then something needs to be done to correct this…right?

 

[Strydersroom]

Yes, I agree, all this means is the bible is not effective in our times, thats pretty clear if more and more people are willing to disobey Gods laws, they either do not believe in him or do not believe what they are doing is wrong.

IN the OT, in these cases, God would send warnings or other ‘signs’ to the people, to kind of get them back on the right track, but he has not done this for a very long time, ( Im also referring to many other popular sins in our time too, not just homosexuality ),so of course, the population is going to go the other way…Im really not sure why he has not intervened or sent some kind of clear message to the modern world?

One would think if so many people are ‘getting it wrong’ or not getting it at all, then something needs to be done to correct this…right?

Such a dangerous slope and this is used daily to blame homosexuals for natural disasters/9-11/shootings/etc…
pain and destruction, death and murder, will NEVER be a sign from any God I believe in.

 

[Thorolfr]

Yes, I agree, all this means is the bible is not effective in our times, thats pretty clear if more and more people are willing to disobey Gods laws, they either do not believe in him or do not believe what they are doing is wrong.

IN the OT, in these cases, God would send warnings or other ‘signs’ to the people, to kind of get them back on the right track, but he has not done this for a very long time, ( Im also referring to many other popular sins in our time too, not just homosexuality ),so of course, the population is going to go the other way…Im really not sure why he has not intervened or sent some kind of clear message to the modern world?

One would think if so many people are ‘getting it wrong’ or not getting it at all, then something needs to be done to correct this…right?

So why hasn’t God sent any warnings or other signs for a long time?

 

[nqes7t9]

Thorolfr, I think God still does send “warnings” and “signs”. For example, I think God sent me signs through this thread, through the other posts. I think God sends signs through the Church – all Christians are called to prophesy, right? And sometimes I think God does send more “direct” signs like special communications through saints. St. Francis had vision(s) of Our Lord & Our Lady appeared to people in Fatima, too.

And He’s still sending us signs through His Word, the Bible.

However, I guess figuring out what the Bible means is no mean feat, in my opinion. I agree with Strydersroom that one could go a little loopy thinking about that.

Maybe the bottom line is that while these things (sodomy) are bad, and they are maybe they’re own punishment, ultimately God forgives, and God forgives in tangible ways & in greater measure than any negative consequences. If we want to help God then we might as well help God in His forgiving work.

 

[nqes7t9]

Also, I want to say that my understanding of LGBT includes among other things these premises:

1. I am my sexuality.
2. I cannot change my sexuality.

I don’t think the Catholic Church really addresses LGBT ideas on LGBT terms…I think the Church sort of likes to address things on the Church’s terms. I think at root we’d be more about converting from sin and overcoming temptation, and personal growth. I don’t think the Catholic Church is really “gay conversion therapy central.” The Church is just … different. We do things differently.

But I’d also say, I don’t think a person is that person’s … feelings (and right now I mean sexuality == feelings in this post). I feel a certain way, but I am not my feelings! That “to be” verb is special. You are you, but you have feelings. I am not my feelings.

These are just my speculations. I think they are valid speculations, especially in the context of this post & this thread, but I don’t really intend them to be valid too far outside of this scope, although they may be.

 

[Lea101]

Hey, so I wanted to shed some light on why gay people want marriage.

It’s not because they believe in “one flesh” or our idea of marriage. But a civil marriage have its advantages-like healthcare/legal stuff. I mean if not for that, they wouldn’t care about it and just live together.

In my country, married couples are only allowed to buy apartments (or at least they are given priority)

I’m not defending it, but just wanna let you know what they think

 

[Lea101]

Personally, I think God might have made some people gay or asexual. Like so their vocation is singlehood. (Some are called to be priests, some remain single). You know, their cross. But that’s just an unpopular opinion

 

[nqes7t9]

Lea101…I think I would say no to this one: “God might have made some people gay or asexual” I think about it like this: God only causes good. But gay-ness or asexuality is not good. Thus, God could not caused gay-ness or asexuality.

I would attribute gay-ness or asexuality to another cause, an evil cause: the world, the devil, or the flesh. Jesus said some people were made celibate (I don’t mean gay) because they were born so, or made so by others, or because they chose to be. Similarly, I think homosexuality could have come from genetic factors (born so) or environmental factors (made so by others). That’s not to say I think that celibacy is equal to gay-ness, homosexuality, or asexuality. And I don’t mean to say that God can’t act through genes or environment. It’s just that evil can act through those things, too.

Also, I remember the parable in which weeds are found among the wheat…the master said to his servants – don’t pull the weeds, you might hurt the crop (the good parts). Wait until the harvest to eliminate the weeds. I think this reflects that complete liberation may still be in our future & it will require massive, divine help!

Anyway, that’s the way I think about that. My 2 cents.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

You do realize that God destroyed and therefore killed 2 entire cities full of people as punishment over this very sin…right?

I think its pretty clear how he feels about it.

The people in the Bible story - as may be read - were very violent, they were not having a cuddle and getting a bit risque. They picked on non-consenting victims. A source outside the Bible said they had a bed of Procrustes (a guillotine that worked horizontally).

As part of their other attitudes also. To stop them getting even worse. In a phase of earth history with lots of big meteorites etc. God’s providence doesn’t work according to some tariff. It was also to show Lot some things.

For some hundreds of years the term was applied as it was. (It also applied to this act against women, which may not have been consensual. And against other males it may often not have been consensual, especially with a power or status differential.)

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… However I do wonder what the homosexual community would do if God sent a modern day warning about this kind of thing, what if he DOES consider it to be a very grave sin, above other sexual sin (acting on Homosxl thoughts, NOT just having SSA), would the secular world heed the warning and repent (give in and admit its wrong and stop), or claim it is God who is wrong here, and continue engaging in this behavior?

God sent a sign to the Pharisees (the Holy Joes of Jesus’ time) which was the sign of Jonah - the man whose life was swallowed up for three days and nights, whose resultant skin condition made him dependent on God sending shade, who felt compelled to announce God’s mercy to those He sent him to, who was left with nothing other than to offer up his own frailty.

This remains the only sign. Supplementary signs are at Fatima and other places, confirming it. These signs are to us, the Holy Joes.

The Church will get judged first. It’s plain from recent Church history, studied in detail, how policies fostering unequal impure relationships were introduced in some institutions.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

…

1. The “privacy” folks seem to forget that it’s currently the gay movement (or a part of it) want their activities to publicly legitimized. If gay activities are private, then why are gay peoples asking for public recognition and acceptance of those acts …
2. As for punishments, we have to agree that certain levels and types of punishments (or what might be called punishments) are certainly accepted in the Catholic Church. Take penance, for example. A penance is a kind of corrective action that we undertake, isn’t it? What about fasting? Fasting is something we do to overcome temptations and progress spiritually, right? …

Point 1 - I am going to answer this (insofar as I have anything to say) in your thread on the LBGT movement.

Point 3 - I suggest you make a big study of what the Church means by penance - take your time - and keep it in the context of all the other parts of the Christian life.

Christ came to give you life.

 

[at9009]

Lea101…I think I would say no to this one: “God might have made some people gay or asexual” I think about it like this: God only causes good. But gay-ness or asexuality is not good. Thus, God could not caused gay-ness or asexuality.

I believe what she meant was that God allowed for that person’s manifestation of original sin in their concupiscence become that. We all have disordered desires. They can be influenced by environment, genetics, personal choices, etc. but we have deal with inclinations that aren’t in accordance with God’s Will.

So it is not unreasonable to believe that God allows this personal cross in a person’s life because God is able to use it for good. Sometimes thorns are great avenues for grace.

Also I have never heard that asexuality is not good. Sex is reserved between marriage of a man and a woman. If a person is not called for marriage and does not deal with sexual temptations, there is no wrong there.

The complications of sexuality is that it affects and relates to how we connect and communicate with people. (Catechism reference below)

2332 Sexuality affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.

 

[Strydersroom]

Lea101…I think I would say no to this one: “God might have made some people gay or asexual” I think about it like this: God only causes good. But gay-ness or asexuality is not good. Thus, God could not caused gay-ness or asexuality.

I would attribute gay-ness or asexuality to another cause, an evil cause: the world, the devil, or the flesh. Jesus said some people were made celibate (I don’t mean gay) because they were born so, or made so by others, or because they chose to be. Similarly, I think homosexuality could have come from genetic factors (born so) or environmental factors (made so by others). That’s not to say I think that celibacy is equal to gay-ness, homosexuality, or asexuality. And I don’t mean to say that God can’t act through genes or environment. It’s just that evil can act through those things, too.

Also, I remember the parable in which weeds are found among the wheat…the master said to his servants – don’t pull the weeds, you might hurt the crop (the good parts). Wait until the harvest to eliminate the weeds. I think this reflects that complete liberation may still be in our future & it will require massive, divine help!

Anyway, that’s the way I think about that. My 2 cents.

Could you please explain exactly how “gay-ness or asexuality” is not good and attributed to an evil cause. Those are some serious accusations. I believe it is your own Catholicism which preaches Homosexuality is actually NOT a sin per se.

Because I can tell you from personal experience I have never felt that way, and my friends, neighbors and family members would be the first to my defense.

 

[Jake_Parker]

Personally, I think God might have made some people gay or asexual. Like so their vocation is singlehood. (Some are called to be priests, some remain single). You know, their cross. But that’s just an unpopular opinion

And I think God made gay people to adopt all the children straight people don’t bother to adopt, because they are so focused on creating their own children. God does work in mysterious ways, right?

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… But gay-ness or asexuality is not good. Thus, God could not caused gay-ness or asexuality.

I would attribute gay-ness or asexuality to another cause, an evil cause: the world, the devil, or the flesh. … I think homosexuality could have come from genetic factors (born so) or environmental factors (made so by others). That’s not to say I think that celibacy is equal to gay-ness, homosexuality, or asexuality. And I don’t mean to say that God can’t act through genes or environment. It’s just that evil can act through those things, too.

Also, I remember the parable in which weeds are found among the wheat…the master said to his servants – don’t pull the weeds, you might hurt the crop (the good parts). Wait until the harvest to eliminate the weeds. I think this reflects that complete liberation may still be in our future & it will require massive, divine help!

Anyway, that’s the way I think about that. My 2 cents.

Nqes, I think you need to forget about sex and think about everything else in life!

I expect one has been pregnant with one’s own twin (in a cyst) and is attuned to intimacy in some way thereby - just a random thought.

We should all de-obsess!

The bit about wheat and tares is about relative fruitfulness in various ministries in the Church, it is like the talents. Those who said “Lord Lord” went over to Jesus in body and soul while others went over to Him in body, soul and spirit and shared in His mediating ministry.