Punishments for Sodomy?

[truetofaith]

And I think God made gay people to adopt all the children straight people don’t bother to adopt, because they are so focused on creating their own children. God does work in mysterious ways, right?

Yeah, right.

He also created murderers to control overpopulation.

 

[Thorolfr]

Yeah, right.

He also created murderers to control overpopulation.

Perhaps that’s not as far off as you think. Maybe that’s why He created things like the Black Plague that reduced the population of Europe by about 1/3 during the Middle Ages. And then there was the Influenza Pandemic of 1918 which resulted in between 50 and 100 million deaths. Maybe disease was created to control overpopulation.

 

[mikekle]

So why hasn’t God sent any warnings or other signs for a long time?

Thats the million dollar question imo. I wish I knew.

Its clear God sent many warnings back in the OT times, and these were not personal type warnings, these were HUGE, disastrous things, many many people saw and recognized them to be warnings.

However, lets say some big event did happen next week, like if billions of locusts were suddenly let loose, and they destroyed crops, killed people, livestock, and caused all kinds of global problems, we have to ask…would it even be recognized as a warning from God, what was the warning in regard to?

In the bible, apparently the people knew why the warnings were sent, we would not be as lucky, it would be guess at best and naturally, there would be millions of different opinions, so who would be right, Would the Vatican/ church recognize it as a warning? what should they do as a result?

I HIGHLY doubt our modern world would even accept it WAS a warning from God, I assume they would get some scientist to explain it away using big words and there was no way we could have predicted such a thing.

Thats where our modern world is at right now though, we are so far removed from God and morality, we can probably not even recognize ANY warning sent by God, NO MATTER how supernatural or bizarre it happens to appear…the fact remains though, NO current world nation would EVER admit some event was a real warning from God.

 

[nqes7t9]

Vic TalTrees…thanks for the suggestion. I will continue to de-obsess about sex. Trust me, I used to be much worse. What exactly do you have in mind about me learning more about penance? I’d like to know what you’re referring to. Maybe a private message would be good.

Strydersroom, just because something isn’t called a sin doesn’t mean Catholics don’t think it’s bad. I didn’t throw a McDonald’s bag out of my car window, but it’s still litter. We think that homosexuality is bad, but that doesn’t mean that we think it’s the fault of the person experiencing homosexuality (although I would guess exceptions might exist).

So yes, we think that homosexuality is a disorder, that means evil basically. I’m speaking off my cuff here but I’m pretty sure I’m speaking in line with something that’s spelled out in the Catechism.

As for the “does God cause evil” bit: it does look like mikekle in particular is suggesting that God sort of causes evil…honestly, at this point, I’m not sure. I know I spoke to the “God does not cause evil” line earlier, but really I don’t quite understand. Doesn’t God chastise us lightly at least? I guess a chastisement is way less evil than a more serious evil like homosexuality. Homosexuality is terrible…when I say chastisement, I’m thinking more like a cold. Or maybe a cold shower.

I agree with at9009 regarding the “God let a person be afflicted with some evil thing due to original sin”. Could be that evil thing is … alcoholism or bulimia or hypertension or some thing.

Holy Spirit, grant us understanding and love!

 

[Lea101]

I believe what she meant was that God allowed for that person’s manifestation of original sin in their concupiscence become that. We all have disordered desires. They can be influenced by environment, genetics, personal choices, etc. but we have deal with inclinations that aren’t in accordance with God’s Will.

So it is not unreasonable to believe that God allows this personal cross in a person’s life because God is able to use it for good. Sometimes thorns are great avenues for grace.

Also I have never heard that asexuality is not good. Sex is reserved between marriage of a man and a woman. If a person is not called for marriage and does not deal with sexual temptations, there is no wrong there.

The complications of sexuality is that it affects and relates to how we connect and communicate with people. (Catechism reference below)

Yeah that’s what I meant. He allows this to happen. Like maybe he allows a man to suck in being a relationship in order to nudge him to his vocation to be single. Or he allows a woman to be infertile to nudge her to the vocation he wants her to have. Things like that.

Some people might argue that God causes disasters, which are not good. But the intentions behind doing stuff are good. Idk how to refute that bc I kind of agree with it One day hopefully we get all the answers we are looking for. Now we are just saying our opinions and disagreeing.

 

[nqes7t9]

Lea101, I think I may have answered one of your posts quite harshly – sometimes I struggle with how to respond to things.

OK, let’s start over. How about this one: “service for sodomites.” No camp, no hard labor, no snow. No pink triangles. Let’s just say people found guilty of sodomy have to do community service.

Here’s where I’m coming from: we have to do our best. That includes speaking out against what we see as evil. And we need to do our part to make the law actually just.

now, as we all know and as I’ve stated before, some people, call them whatever you will – actually, let’s not call them anything – are asking for what they are calling “gay marriage.” Another person on these forums has a little blurb by the signature saying we must resist that. I think we’re resisting that for the sake of people who have been duped into that false narrative as well as everybody else.

Since we have one force asking for what we see as wrong, maybe we should have an opposing force! “No ‘gay marriage’, and if you commit sodomy & we find out, you have to do community service.”

The law can do various things: say & do nothing. say and do things condoning ‘gay marriage’ and its things. or, say and do something against ‘gay marriage’ and its things.

I don’t think people should be beaten over their heads for anything. Things have meanings. Mindless oppression – that is, any oppression – is pointless. That’s sort of why it’s bad, in my opinion. Thoughtful correction has got to be good – right?

 

[Thorolfr]

Since we have one force asking for what we see as wrong, maybe we should have an opposing force! “No ‘gay marriage’, and if you commit sodomy & we find out, you have to do community service.”

It would be illegal to punish gay people using sodomy laws since such laws were declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in Lawrence vs. Texas in 2003:

Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003) is a landmark decision by the United States Supreme Court. The Court struck down the sodomy law in Texas and, by extension, invalidated sodomy laws in 13 other states, making same-sex sexual activity legal in every U.S. state and territory.

Lawrence explicitly overruled Bowers, holding that it had viewed the liberty interest too narrowly. The Court held that intimate consensual sexual conduct was part of the liberty protected by substantive due process under the 14th Amendment. Lawrence invalidated similar laws throughout the United States that criminalized sodomy between consenting adults acting in private, whatever the sex of the participants.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

 

[nqes7t9]

OK. I just want to say, I quit. I’m just going to follow this: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=134749 “Church Teaching on Same Sex Issues” by Ferdinand Mary.

“Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided” & “clear and emphatic opposition is a duty [towards ‘gay marriage’]”. those are from then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger ie Pope Benedict XVI. doesn’t say anything about punishments.

n

 

[mikekle]

It would be illegal to punish gay people using sodomy laws since such laws were declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in Lawrence vs. Texas in 2003:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

Sodomy laws are still used in KY, I googled this for another post, I found people recently arrested in my state, that had the charge of ‘sodomy’ . I can provide a link to many of them if you like. However, most of them had other charges as well, not just Sodomy.

Now, whether they were actually convicted of this, I do not know, it just listed the charges they were arrested on and their picture, says nothing about how the cases were dissolved.

 

[Thorolfr]

Sodomy laws are still used in KY, I googled this for another post, I found people recently arrested in my state, that had the charge of ‘sodomy’ . I can provide a link to many of them if you like. However, most of them had other charges as well, not just Sodomy.

Now, whether they were actually convicted of this, I do not know, it just listed the charges they were arrested on and their picture, says nothing about how the cases were dissolved.

As the article in Wikipedia noted, “Lawrence invalidated similar laws throughout the United States that criminalized sodomy between consenting adults acting in private.” So people can still be arrested under old sodomy laws if it involves sodomy that is not “between consenting adults acting in private,” i.e. sodomy in public or that involves minors or is non-consensual. And, of course, sodomy does not just refer to gay sex. It includes various kinds of heterosexual sex as well.

 

[mikekle]

As the article in Wikipedia noted, “Lawrence invalidated similar laws throughout the United States that criminalized sodomy between consenting adults acting in private.” So people can still be arrested under old sodomy laws if it involves sodomy that is not “between consenting adults acting in private,” i.e. sodomy in public or that involves minors or is non-consensual. And, of course, sodomy does not just refer to gay sex. It includes various kinds of heterosexual sex as well.

Why should that particular act gets its own charge though, if it was just rape and/or some type of sexual assault? Seems modern laws still consider the act itself something of significance or important enough it needs its own charge.

 

[nqes7t9]

Regarding consent: how can someone claim they are consenting to a sexual act when that person might simultaneously claim that one is not free to choose one’s sexuality?

I sometimes hear a strain of thought: “we’re consenting adults, so it’s OK to do XX” and at the same time, those people sound to be claiming, “I don’t have any choice over how I feel.”

How can someone’s actions be free if those actions are based on feelings that are not free?

My answer to my own question is that freedom over one’s feelings, however persistent or deep-seated those might be, may have to be won, through struggle and also through external help.

hope this helps

 

[nqes7t9]

Another thing: to whoever is reading this: previously I wrote that I understand gay marriage as something that in fact does not mean that the two people are committing sodomy, or any sexual act at all, but actually the two people refrain from sexual activity with each other, and then be sexually active, in one way or another, with other people outside of the pairing. Then they go back to their opposite and talk about their experiences. I read this in Robert Reilly’s Making Gay Okay: How Rationalizing Homosexual Behavior is Changing Everything.

So, looking at gay marriage in that light, I think what avowed gay people are seeking is, in fact, chastity. They want a relationship which is free from their sexuality, roughly speaking, where they can talk about their feelings & experiences.

The problem, in my opinion, is that that’s not really what marriage, “gay marriage” or not, is for. Marriage is a lifelong partnership between a man and a woman for the mutual benefit of the spouses and the bringing up of children. That involves sex.

So based on this, I would suggest that maybe a relationship with Jesus would help. Trust me, you will not commit any sins or any sort with Jesus. Jesus doesn’t do sin. In another thread (a “please read this before posting about homosexuality”), Cardinal Ratzinger spoke about friendship and chastity. I think all people, no matter our feelings, past, present, or future, are seeking friendship, and what we call chastity is what we ought to strive for to help friendship. Any other way does not really work. It’s both idealistic and realistic (that’s what I read in a book by Peter Kreeft, Because God is Real, IIRC).

BTW, I think mostly my ideas and the stuff I write is not really my own. I’ve read a lot of Peter Kreeft so I think my ideas sort of come from him. I can’t remember in detail though, so I don’t know about footnotes and things like that.

 

[Strydersroom]

Sodomy should never be and will never be punishable, whether you are gay or straight. Period. /end of thread

 

[fred_conty]

Sodomy should never be and will never be punishable, whether you are gay or straight. Period. /end of thread

If it becomes politically correct, anyone can be punished for anything. We are not really protected by the constitution any more. Words only mean what people want them to mean.

 

[nqes7t9]

Strydersroom, wake up!

So-called LGBT acts are being punished under the law right now in various places. Take, for example, Saudi Arabia: in that country, some of these acts are punished! You can take a look at this wikipedia article: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

Besides that, based on one of mikekle’s posts, sodomy is still punished in certain places in the US – under the right circumstances.

So, when you write, “sodomy will never be punished” – how can that be true, when it is being punished right now and very likely will continue to be, at least in the short and medium term? And possibly in the long term?

I agree with fred conty’s post – we are sort of under the will of the people in this here democracy of the US of A.

 

[kdbueno]

The seraphic code assures you that sex is freedom of choice, based on the spirit of Truth.

 

[QuestLove]

Hi CAF,

What do you think about punishing people who commit homosexual acts? I’ve read that in some places / cultures / times, homosexual acts could be punished with things like beatings and hard labor.

I’m specifically talking about publicly-approved punishments, like what if your national or state government approved such a measure. “If a citizen commits sodomy, that citizen is sentenced to one month’s hard labor in Alaska.”

I’m not talking about individual citizens deciding to punish other individual citizens, i.e. vigilantes, and I’m not talking about capital punishments.

I got into a heated discussion with a family member recently about this. My opinion is that the state might be quite helpful in reforming people. I also admit that people probably don’t want to be reformed and I imagine many people, particularly in the US, would find this idea of state-sanctioned chastisements for sexual things abhorrent. And of course, I see no movement whatsoever in my country (the US) to institute such a thing.

Aren’t punishments sometimes compassionate? For example, isn’t it good for parents to sometimes punish their children for misbehavior? Right now I’m not sure whether punishments are compassionate, but I do think it’s good for parents to sometimes punish children for misbehavior. I would appreciate any corrections or concerns.

Thanks
n

I live in a country where sodomy is illegal. Without even going into the vigilante justice etc. I have found that punishing people for these acts does not help. The punishments are quite extreme (not as bad as in Uganda though) and studies show that the prison times/fines are not much of a deterrent.

One main reason I do not agree with the punishments is because it limits those who want to seek help or to provide help. For example, guidance counsellors, school psychologists in my country are often reluctant to hear from questioning students because they are required by law to report students who are involved in certain acts eg. sodomy. The reasoning is that they would be legally required to report other illegal acts so why not sodomy. As you will expect, students do not seek help and even they do, mental health officials are often too scared of getting into trouble to help.

Punishment sounds good on paper but what usually ends up happening is that the gay population ends up feeling victimised. And for very good reason. In most countries where sodomy is illegal, other types of acts are not. For example, in my country if you cheat on your spouse and leave him/her for another, this is not against the law. Premarital sex is not illegal either. All of these acts are condemned by christianity…how do we decide which one will land you in jail for 5-10 years if caught in the act?

 

[nqes7t9]

QuestLove, thanks.

 

[edwest2]

Regarding consent: how can someone claim they are consenting to a sexual act when that person might simultaneously claim that one is not free to choose one’s sexuality?

I sometimes hear a strain of thought: “we’re consenting adults, so it’s OK to do XX” and at the same time, those people sound to be claiming, “I don’t have any choice over how I feel.”

How can someone’s actions be free if those actions are based on feelings that are not free?

My answer to my own question is that freedom over one’s feelings, however persistent or deep-seated those might be, may have to be won, through struggle and also through external help.

hope this helps

Who decides when anyone does XYZ? You do. If you let your feelings or emotions control you then you might take some risks that you shouldn’t.

“For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.”

Galatians 5:17 NIV

“No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.”

1 Corinthians 9:27 NIV

“Like a city whose walls are broken through is a person who lacks self-control.”

Proverbs 25:28

Ed