Punishments for Sodomy?

[Jake_Parker]

Thank you.
Very well said.

 

[mikekle]

So all of this means that gay people engaging in sodomy should be sent to labour camps to be “corrected”? What are you going to do with all the hetrosexual couples who practise this? Let them off because it’s between a man and a woman?

Lou

I never said they should be sent to labor camps or be punished legally for engaging in homosexual activity, these kinds of judgements will come when we meet God.

The man and woman who have affairs, or fornicate before marriage, or any other sexual sin they commit, they are sinning all the same, and they will be judged for this one day, however God never said heterosexual type sin was an abomination, this was specifically for homosexual activity.

All we can go by is what the bible says, of course, its only natural some or much of it will not ‘mesh’ too well with the type of hedonistic society we live in today, thats to be expected actually.

The bible also predicts our time, when evil will be called good…good called evil, what do you think some of things this is referring to?

 

[mikekle]

You mean this: “This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.”

You’re right, this is talking all about those disgusting gays.

So he destroyed the 2 cities for those types of sins…if thats true, then I can name 1000s of modern day cities that are worse than S&G… much worse.

Why is ‘sodom-y’ even the term used to describe this act then?

 

[KnowtheSilence]

So he destroyed the 2 cities for those types of sins…if thats true, then I can name 1000s of modern day cities that are worse than S&G… much worse.

Why is ‘sodom-y’ even the term used to describe this act then?

Probably for the same reason “Onanism” is used as a term for maturation, as though that was the worst part about what Onan was doing.

 

[nqes7t9]

Thanks again to all for replying.

A few more thoughts from me:

1. The “privacy” folks seem to forget that it’s currently the gay movement (or a part of it) want their activities to publicly legitimized. If gay activities are private, then why are gay peoples asking for public recognition and acceptance of those acts (so-called “marriage”?).
2. I agree with certain post(s) in that such acts are described as “abominations” in the Bible whereas other things are not described as “abominations”. I don’t think that all sins are not evil; all bad things are bad. But some things are worse than other things.
3. As for punishments, we have to agree that certain levels and types of punishments (or what might be called punishments) are certainly accepted in the Catholic Church. Take penance, for example. A penance is a kind of corrective action that we undertake, isn’t it? What about fasting? Fasting is something we do to overcome temptations and progress spiritually, right? and it’s not any walk in the park. St. Francis of Assisi jumped in the snow to purify himself of some kind of fleshly, sinful inclination. So I think inside of Catholicism we have to admit that we promote some kinds of “punishments” (although not forced labor camps).

I definitely do not want to associate myself with Hitler…I’m not imagining death camps for gays; I’m thinking of a kind of nice prison. It might be more like a resort than anything else. Shovel snow until you’ve overcome your inclinations a little.

Finally, I do see some merit or even a lot of merit in the outlook that “we’ve already tried that.” I think things do progress sometimes. Maybe things are all somehow better than they were long ago, even though it seems that some things have gotten worse.

 

[Lea101]

Thanks again to all for replying.

A few more thoughts from me:

1. The “privacy” folks seem to forget that it’s currently the gay movement (or a part of it) want their activities to publicly legitimized. If gay activities are private, then why are gay peoples asking for public recognition and acceptance of those acts (so-called “marriage”?).
2. I agree with certain post(s) in that such acts are described as “abominations” in the Bible whereas other things are not described as “abominations”. I don’t think that all sins are not evil; all bad things are bad. But some things are worse than other things.
3. As for punishments, we have to agree that certain levels and types of punishments (or what might be called punishments) are certainly accepted in the Catholic Church. Take penance, for example. A penance is a kind of corrective action that we undertake, isn’t it? What about fasting? Fasting is something we do to overcome temptations and progress spiritually, right? and it’s not any walk in the park. St. Francis of Assisi jumped in the snow to purify himself of some kind of fleshly, sinful inclination. So I think inside of Catholicism we have to admit that we promote some kinds of “punishments” (although not forced labor camps).

I definitely do not want to associate myself with Hitler…I’m not imagining death camps for gays; I’m thinking of a kind of nice prison. It might be more like a resort than anything else. Shovel snow until you’ve overcome your inclinations a little.

Finally, I do see some merit or even a lot of merit in the outlook that “we’ve already tried that.” I think things do progress sometimes. Maybe things are all somehow better than they were long ago, even though it seems that some things have gotten worse.

??? You think shoveling snow will make them “less gay”???

This post just reeks of ignorance, whether you like it or not.

Francis did that bc he wanted to. Unless homosexuals are willing, your idea of punishment is just weird. Plus gay people do not believe in God/Catholic Church, so are we really going to punish them? Punishment does not work unless the sinner is GENUINE in obeying God and is willing to do the penance.
If Muslims punish you for something that is considered a sin in islam (for example, believing in jesus, or maybe dressing in a way that’s immodest for them), it would suddenly be barbaric to you wouldn’t it?

 

[nqes7t9]

Yes, I do think that shoveling snow might help one to overcome temptation or sin.

I do appreciate Lea101’s point that conversion needs an element of genuine choice for God.

I have committed my share of “sexual” sin. I have committed deeds of lust. I’ve also overcome temptations and inclinations to such sins, partially through hard work! I’m not kidding at all, and I do not intend to brag, but maybe to give some hope to others who are reading this. I do expect that I’ll keep encountering temptations – but I do also expect to at least sometimes choose the good path.

I do think that even small sins need to be overcome in order to finally and fully enter into heaven. Why wait for tomorrow when one can start work today? Why spend more time in Purgatory when I can overcome my sins today?

Finally, to follow the recent lead of Pope Francis, I’m sorry for any wrongdoing against gays I might have suggested by this post. I tried to talk about this in a way I though appropriate. I know what it’s like to identify oneself with one’s sexuality, and I know how hard (at least, in my case) it can be to achieve victories over lust. I hear and appreciate that strain of thought that one cannot choose or alter one’s sexuality, and I do not necessarily disagree with that premise.

Peace to you all!

 

[Trident_H]

??? You think shoveling snow will make them “less gay”???

This post just reeks of ignorance, whether you like it or not.

Francis did that bc he wanted to. Unless homosexuals are willing, your idea of punishment is just weird. Plus gay people do not believe in God/Catholic Church, so are we really going to punish them? Punishment does not work unless the sinner is GENUINE in obeying God and is willing to do the penance.
If Muslims punish you for something that is considered a sin in islam (for example, believing in jesus, or maybe dressing in a way that’s immodest for them), it would suddenly be barbaric to you wouldn’t it?

Thank you Lea. That’s pretty much the whole case. With a small “some” added in that main line about God and gays.

Listen Nqes? You want to tell us your worst fault first and then tell the rest of us how you’d like to be punished for slipping into it? I mean I’m sure a lot of us could think of a thing or to if you’re stuck for ideas.

See, what you’re missing is you’re making a guess about a lot of different kinds of people and just sort of thinking they’re all against you or even against God. But you’re wrong. There are thousands of us who aren’t at all different from you in our belief that it’s a sin and shouldn’t be done. Even though we’re pulled towards it. But where we’ll split off from you? We’re not going to stand aside and let anyone get sent to any kind of camp just because they don’t agree with where we’re at now. That kind of talk would split us right off from this branch you’re on. So if anything like it ever happened you’d lose all of us. You’d force us into defending the side A’s by just taking away any other choice.

So cool off a bit. Don’t get so wound up on this one thing. On this one sin.

I mean I get that you want to make God proud. I get that. But doing this kind of thing actually works the other way. It actually makes God look weak. Because if He’d wanted more Sodoms He could’ve done that anytime. He could do it any way He wants. But to think He’s just been stewing up in Heaven about what to do until you came on the scene? Nah. That’s just not right man.

So please hold onto your hat with both hands for a second. And sort of relax your zeal at least 90 degrees. And realize we’re all in this together. There’s no need to start building up fences and walls to keep each of us in our own little sinning space. That just divides us into easier groups to knock down. No.

What we really need is to live our lives the best way possible. To say quiet words of help to each other when those words are needed. To pray for those who seem to be slipping. To be willing to say things in love to spread more love. To say things with patience and understanding to get even more of the same.

To keep the doors that let us in wide open. Instead of locked and defended with iron judgment.

I mean love does not mean we don’t have standards. It doesn’t mean we can’t softly remind those closest to us of what they should be doing better. It just means we’re more likely to reach out to those who need us most. Rather than to shove them further away.

Hope you understand what I’m saying here.

Peace Nges?

And thanks again Lea.

-Trident

 

[mikekle]

??? You think shoveling snow will make them “less gay”???

This post just reeks of ignorance, whether you like it or not.

Francis did that bc he wanted to. Unless homosexuals are willing, your idea of punishment is just weird. Plus gay people do not believe in God/Catholic Church, so are we really going to punish them? Punishment does not work unless the sinner is GENUINE in obeying God and is willing to do the penance.
If Muslims punish you for something that is considered a sin in islam (for example, believing in jesus, or maybe dressing in a way that’s immodest for them), it would suddenly be barbaric to you wouldn’t it?

I do agree with you on this, shoveling snow or forced hard labor is not going to be effective here, that kind of thing works for drug or alcohol addiction and similar issues, kind of ‘sweating’ the problem away, eventually they will reach a point where their addiction/ sin is less important to them.

However I do wonder what the homosexual community would do if God sent a modern day warning about this kind of thing, what if he DOES consider it to be a very grave sin, above other sexual sin, (acting on Homosxl thoughts, NOT just having SSA), would the secular world heed the warning and repent (give in and admit its wrong and stop), or claim it is God who is wrong here, and continue engaging in this behavior?

 

[nqes7t9]

I think I see what Trident H is saying…the official communications from the Catholic Church these days that stand out in my mind do not really mention “punishment”. For example, the Catechism says that people (i.e. the “gay” people) should be treated with compassion. And just the other day the Pope said Christians should apologize towards gay people.

So from the standpoint of, “look, our strategy does not involve talking about punishment” right now, I see what Trident H means.

I do want to acknowledge Robert Reilly & his book Making Gay Okay: How Rationalizing Homosexual Behavior is Changing Everything. I copied some of the points in that book in my postings here. In fact, I think it’s generally true that I make social media posts depending on other people’s work without giving credit.

I also don’t think that punishment is the end of the road for anyone…I think life has a “beyond” once we’ve gotten past our faults. Life gets bigger after we’ve made our corrections. Maybe that’s what Trident H is also kind of saying. Oscar Wilde said (just saw this on Google search): Every saint *has *a past…has as in past tense, right? So maybe what Trident H is saying is that lots of “gay” people are way past any sort of purgative stage of the spiritual life. I can see that…thanks.

 

[nqes7t9]

Also: in my personal experiences of conversion from sin, the process is pretty mysterious and not really tied to any one thing. I think it would be unfair to neglect to mention that when I’ve been the recipient of some pretty mysterious help. And on the whole I think that process up makes me happier, not ouch-y from shoveling too much snow & spraining my back or something.

I hope I’ll stop posting things. I haven’t enjoyed this thread. It’d be nice if I could look forward to a future free of Internet interactions. Please God, hear my prayer.

 

[Lou2U]

Thanks again to all for replying.

A few more thoughts from me:

1. The “privacy” folks seem to forget that it’s currently the gay movement (or a part of it) want their activities to publicly legitimized. If gay activities are private, then why are gay peoples asking for public recognition and acceptance of those acts (so-called “marriage”?).

I’m presuming by “gay activities” you are referring to anal sex. Firstly, gay people are not the only ones to engage in this act, so should we stop them from marrying? How do we know if gay couples engage in anal sex? How do we know straight couples don’t?

Sex is private. Sex is one aspect of marriage.

1. I agree with certain post(s) in that such acts are described as “abominations” in the Bible whereas other things are not described as “abominations”. I don’t think that all sins are not evil; all bad things are bad. But some things are worse than other things.

Why does this give anyone the right to persecute others?

1. As for punishments, we have to agree that certain levels and types of punishments (or what might be called punishments) are certainly accepted in the Catholic Church. Take penance, for example. A penance is a kind of corrective action that we undertake, isn’t it? What about fasting? Fasting is something we do to overcome temptations and progress spiritually, right? and it’s not any walk in the park. St. Francis of Assisi jumped in the snow to purify himself of some kind of fleshly, sinful inclination. So I think inside of Catholicism we have to admit that we promote some kinds of “punishments” (although not forced labor camps).

Both penances and fasting is done with the consent of the person undertaking the acts. Arresting someone is not consensual.

I definitely do not want to associate myself with Hitler…I’m not imagining death camps for gays;

Nor should you be.

I’m thinking of a kind of nice prison. It might be more like a resort than anything else.

And now you lose me. Why should gay people be arrested and taken to prison? Why not heterosexual couples who have anal sex? How are you going to prove that any of these couples are having anal sex?

Shovel snow until you’ve overcome your inclinations a little.

To quote Lea101, “You think shovelling snow will make them ‘less gay’??”. What a ridiculous suggestion. My thoughts:

1. You’ve moved away from “punishments for sodomy” to “gay conversion therapy” which has been proven to not work. According to your religion, inclinations are not sinful, acts are. So why do you want to punish those for something they cannot help?
2. You cannot prove who is having anal sex. You just can’t.
3. Why do you think gay people should “overcome [your] inclinations”? Why are they obliged to show you that they have overcome their inclinations? What do they owe you?

Finally, I do see some merit or even a lot of merit in the outlook that “we’ve already tried that.” I think things do progress sometimes. Maybe things are all somehow better than they were long ago, even though it seems that some things have gotten worse.

I cannot believe you are serious.

People are people. You may believe that certain acts are sinful and I do not want to try and change your opinion. I can’t see how you think prison would ever be effective in something like this. What you are doing is advocating the persecution of a group of people and calling for their arrest and “correction” until they have shown to you that they deserve to be treated like a member of society. And you do all this by citing “compassion”.

Lea is right. Your post is ignorant in the extreme.

Lou

 

[Lea101]

I do agree with you on this, shoveling snow or forced hard labor is not going to be effective here, that kind of thing works for drug or alcohol addiction and similar issues, kind of ‘sweating’ the problem away, eventually they will reach a point where their addiction/ sin is less important to them.

However I do wonder what the homosexual community would do if God sent a modern day warning about this kind of thing, what if he DOES consider it to be a very grave sin, above other sexual sin, (acting on Homosxl thoughts, NOT just having SSA), would the secular world heed the warning and repent (give in and admit its wrong and stop), or claim it is God who is wrong here, and continue engaging in this behavior?

I believe if God sent a very clear warning that shows he exist, a lot of people will repent bc they don’t want to go to hell. I believe the main problem is that people don’t know that God is really real and he would send someone to hell if they don’t repent.

 

[Lea101]

Yes, I do think that shoveling snow might help one to overcome temptation or sin.

I do appreciate Lea101’s point that conversion needs an element of genuine choice for God.

I have committed my share of “sexual” sin. I have committed deeds of lust. I’ve also overcome temptations and inclinations to such sins, partially through hard work! I’m not kidding at all, and I do not intend to brag, but maybe to give some hope to others who are reading this. I do expect that I’ll keep encountering temptations – but I do also expect to at least sometimes choose the good path.

I do think that even small sins need to be overcome in order to finally and fully enter into heaven. Why wait for tomorrow when one can start work today? Why spend more time in Purgatory when I can overcome my sins today?

Finally, to follow the recent lead of Pope Francis, I’m sorry for any wrongdoing against gays I might have suggested by this post. I tried to talk about this in a way I though appropriate. I know what it’s like to identify oneself with one’s sexuality, and I know how hard (at least, in my case) it can be to achieve victories over lust. I hear and appreciate that strain of thought that one cannot choose or alter one’s sexuality, and I do not necessarily disagree with that premise.

Peace to you all!

So is taking a cold shower

I believe that for sins like this, we can only advise.

I feel like you have this opinion bc it worked for you, but you could just be lucky. I once thought I was bisexual and I overcome that as well. But i think you and I were in a different situation.

I know a lot of LGBT people that tried so hard. Had lots of therapy and prayer and penance. Nothing worked. It’s not a choice, really.

And what you said kind of shows what we are thinking as well. You weren’t forced by someone of a different belief (assuming that most lgbt people aren’t devout catholics’ to do some sort of punishment. You did it because you sincerely repented. And by the grace of god, you overcame the temptations.

The best option is to love and advise others to make people want to repent, ya feel? No point punishing them

 

[Trident_H]

I think I see what Trident H is saying…the official communications from the Catholic Church these days that stand out in my mind do not really mention “punishment”. For example, the Catechism says that people (i.e. the “gay” people) should be treated with compassion. And just the other day the Pope said Christians should apologize towards gay people.

So from the standpoint of, “look, our strategy does not involve talking about punishment” right now, I see what Trident H means.

I do want to acknowledge Robert Reilly & his book Making Gay Okay: How Rationalizing Homosexual Behavior is Changing Everything. I copied some of the points in that book in my postings here. In fact, I think it’s generally true that I make social media posts depending on other people’s work without giving credit.

I also don’t think that punishment is the end of the road for anyone…I think life has a “beyond” once we’ve gotten past our faults. Life gets bigger after we’ve made our corrections. Maybe that’s what Trident H is also kind of saying. Oscar Wilde said (just saw this on Google search): Every saint *has *a past…has as in past tense, right? So maybe what Trident H is saying is that lots of “gay” people are way past any sort of purgative stage of the spiritual life. I can see that…thanks.

Thanks man for feeling this out. And don’t give up on posting. Even if we don’t always agree it doesn’t mean I don’t respect you. You’ve got ideas so no big deal working them through online. I’ve got no problem with that.

Peace nqes.

-Trident

 

[nqes7t9]

All,

I am so sorry for having brought this up. I was just reading some old threads, and it became clear to me that ==== well…

peace and mercy, forgiveness and love for all!

grace is superabundant, we are meant for eternal joy and with God all things are possible!

let us rejoice and be glad, for this is the day the Lord has made.

Amen! Amen!

:harp::dancing:

 

[nqes7t9]

forgiveness for everybody!

:harp::crying:

 

[Strydersroom]

Hello everyone. I think the biggest things we need to acknowledge here are that:

1. Not everyone believes Homosexuality/Homosexual Acts are sinful. (myself included)
2. Not everyone believes Sodom and Gomorra, or most if not any of the bible are literal stories that actually happened.

As noted so eloquently by others on here, the very idea of “punishment” is a barbaric horrible idea.

I have many gay/straight friends who truly love each other and they should be free to express that love as they see fit.

peace.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I believe if God sent a very clear warning that shows he exist, a lot of people will repent bc they don’t want to go to hell. I believe the main problem is that people don’t know that God is really real and he would send someone to hell if they don’t repent.

Perhaps.

But that is a God decision, not a person decision. Remember that in the US and in many other countries, it is perfectly legal and perfectly moral to marry (or to have a civil union) with someone of your own gender, and to have sexual intimacy within that relationship. No legal mandate will override that.

Now if a religious community wants to punish its members, even send them to a prison camp, it can do it IF and ONLY IF it is legal within civil law. And that is never going to happen.

My suggestion? Let it go. Gay men and women are here to stay and they are living their lives, getting married, having families, making a contribution to the greater community. It’s here and the new normal. If you have worries for their souls, keep it to yourself. Most know what you think already.

 

[nqes7t9]

@Trident H: thanks, let’s be friends.

At the moment I think I’ll try to respond to people’s posts as I feel able:

@Lou2U “Firstly, gay people are not the only ones to engage in this act, so should we stop them from marrying? How do we know if gay couples engage in anal sex? How do we know straight couples don’t?”

I used the word sodomy intending its dictionary meaning: “to have anal sex with someone.” That’s the definition I found on Merriam Webster’s website: merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sodomy which I accessed just now, on 27 June 2016. That would include men having anal sex with women, and that’s what I meant throughout this thread.

As for so-called gay marriage: people are asking for gay marriage. What do they mean by that? What are they declaring by their marriage? Two men cannot do what a man and a woman can do. I do not think that a man and a man or a woman and a woman can marry. We need to do what we can to stop them! They are hurting themselves.

As for the “how do we know” aspect: well, if by “gay marriage” its supporters mean “we are having anal sex” then public records (ie records of gay marriage) will show who has had anal sex.

“Why does this give anyone the right to persecute others?” All right. From a Christian perspective, our Lord tells us to put down our stones. I understand God as reserving the right to punish to Godself and then, frankly, not really exercising it as we would. At the same time, we have to be mindful that we might have answers to people’s problems! If Christians really do have answers for gay people (“we can work on this so you don’t stay in sodomy”) then we need to tell people about it. I’m not talking about gay conversion therapy, I’m just talking about living the Way of Jesus. I think Jesus can and does offer healing for people. I know this from my own life. I don’t want to go back to any sin! I don’t want to commit any sin in the future, either!

I think that answers many of Lou2U’s questions and points. I’m sorry that I suggested that people should be punished for what they cannot control. I agree that’s not good, and that’s not what I meant to say or even had in mind.

I guess that’s all I have for now. I don’t think I’m a barbarian and I don’t think my posts are barbaric. However, I was told, and I tend to believe, that as Christians we believe in basically the total opposite of everything the world believes. That opposite-ness hopefully explains why my posts seem so alien (Merriam Webster mentions that barbaric involves “alien” merriam-webster.com/dictionary/barbarian).

Amen!