Purgation after final judgement

[Ginger2]

…, his charity lasts until he sins again - just like us.

Are you saying that denying God is not a sin?

The virtue of charity, and all the other virtues, living faith and hope, etc., leaves the soul with serious sin.

OR, Are you trying to say that denying God is not a serious enough sin to prevent entry into heaven?

If our good samaritan dies of a heart attack, heaven is his, so long as he has not committed serious sin to drive God from his soul.
So it requires a positve (negative) act of rebellion before his soul would fall into this state.

But he still doesn’t believe in God Are you saying that denying God is not a sin until he speaks his denial?

For instance:
The atheist hands the child he saves to the parents and say “Thank God!”
The atheist is still saved if he keeps his denial to himself and says nothing,
but goes to hell if he says God had nothing to do with it.

 

[mgrfin]

Are you saying that denying God is not a sin?

OR, Are you trying to say that denying God is not a serious eough sin to prevent entry into heaven?

But he still doesn’t believe in God Are you saying that denying God is not a sin until he speaks his denial?

For instance:
The atheist hands the child he saves to the parents and say “Thank God!”
The atheist is still saved if he keeps his denial to himself and says nothing,
but goes to hell if he says God had nothing to do with it.

Denying God is a sin, and can send a soul to Hell. I don’t say he goes to hell, since this is a complex matter, and only God makes that judgment. It can send him to hell, all things being equal.

When as he is running into the building and saving this child, what, he saying to himself, “I don’t believe in God!!”? More likely, like all of us, he is saying, “Oh, God, oh God!”

No, keeping the denial ‘to himself’ has nothing to do with it. Disbelief is an intellectual, wilful sin - no one outside him would ever know.

He is going to say that God had nothing to do with the act he performed? Okay. That is disbelief. Charity may leave at that point.

peace

 

[Ginger2]

Denying God is a sin, and can send a soul to Hell. I don’t say he goes to hell, since this is a complex matter, and only God makes that judgment. It can send him to hell, all things being equal.

When as he is running into the building and saving this child, what, he saying to himself, “I don’t believe in God!!”? More likely, like all of us, he is saying, “Oh, God, oh God!”

No, keeping the denial ‘to himself’ has nothing to do with it. Disbelief is an intellectual, wilful sin - no one outside him would ever know.

He is going to say that God had nothing to do with the act he performed? Okay. That is disbelief. Charity may leave at that point.

peace

I find this all very interesting. An atheist, who God knows will continue in his atheism can get into heaven by dying while saving the life of another, simply because he says “Oh, God, oh God” while he is scared.

But, others who believe in God and are trying to do what they think is good, may burn in hell.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I don’t think a thoughtlessly blurting out “Oh God oh God” is a profession of faith. People say it all the time:

Oh God, you scared me.

Oh God, I can’t believe he asked me out.

Oh God, I forgot my purse.

 

[HailMary]

I find this all very interesting. An atheist, who God knows will continue in his atheism can get into heaven by dying while saving the life of another, simply because he says “Oh, God, oh God” while he is scared.

But, others who believe in God and are trying to do what they think is good, may burn in hell.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I don’t think a thoughtlessly blurting out “Oh God oh God” is a profession of faith. People say it all the time:

Oh God, you scared me.

Oh God, I can’t believe he asked me out.

Oh God, I forgot my purse.

No, try again.

 

[Ginger2]

No, try again.

Why should I try again? This is mgrfin’s theology. I am merely trying to make him think thru what he is claiming.

Or do you agree with mgrfin.

 

[HailMary]

Why should I try again? This is mgrfin’s theology. I am merely trying to make him think thru what he is claiming.

Or do you agree with mgrfin.

I didn’t read all of mgrfin’s post, but whatever you have derived from it, does not constitute standard catholic teaching.

 

[mgrfin]

I find this all very interesting. An atheist, who God knows will continue in his atheism can get into heaven by dying while saving the life of another, simply because he says “Oh, God, oh God” while he is scared.

But, others who believe in God and are trying to do what they think is good, may burn in hell.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I don’t think a thoughtlessly blurting out “Oh God oh God” is a profession of faith. People say it all the time:

Oh God, you scared me.

Oh God, I can’t believe he asked me out.

Oh God, I forgot my purse.

I wondered why you came back to the site, Ginger, since stomping outta here in anger.

I now know why. You came back to try to trivialize what I said, to try to embarass me. Nice try!

I never said his reason for getting into heaven was his saying “Oh, God, oh, God”. It is just something people say, believers or not. Even hear a Jew say “Jesus Christ”. Does that mean he believes in Our Saviour? Of course not!

OUR GOOD SAMARITAN GOT THERE BECAUSE HE LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR SOMEONE ELSE, just as Jesus laid down his life for us.

I never said he made a profession of faith. To the contrary, as I have said over and over, his PERFECT ACT OF CHARITY, could not exist without the other Theological virtues of Faith, Hope and the Moral virtues. His perfect of charity could not exist without it perfecting the other virtues in his soul. Perfect charity brings these virtues along.

Whoever said that ‘others who believe in God and are trying to do what they think is good, may burn in hell’. I never said that. Those “others”, as you refer to them, are given sufficient grace to be saved, and God looks kindly on their good acts, supported by God’s grace.

Please, Ginger, do not try to get even with me by misquoting me.
You should be ashamed of yourself to try to sneak that past everyone… Read my posts, and take all of them into account before speaking.

O God, help and enlighten you.

peace

 

[Ginger2]

HailMary,
This is where the discussion begins:

Absolutely. Say an unbeliever runs into a burning building to save a small child, and dies in the process.

What value does this perfect act of charity have for this pagan.

“Greater love no man has than to lay down his life for his friend”.

That is why Jesus went to great extent to tell us the story of the Good Samaritan, who, to his listeners was an unbeliever.

Good works work, and they have merit, sometimes everylasting, eternal merit.

peace

Then I asked…

mgrfin are you saying that an atheist can get to heaven without Jesus, but simply by doing one great “good” deed?.

Then mgrfin said

Absolutely.

Any one doing this ‘great good deed’ may never heard of Jesus, but all good comes from God. He is doing it, and it is blessed by Jesus. "Greater love than this no many hath than to lay down his life for his friend.

It is an act of perfect charity.

 

[HailMary]

HailMary,
This is where the discussion begins:

Then I asked…

Then mgrfin said

Theology is not defined by excercising scenarios and seeing what the outcomes be. It is what the Church defines to be true.

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who,** through no fault of their own**, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

The question of whether this person goes to heaven or hell is up to God since He is the one with all the facts of this persons heart.

 

[Ginger2]

I wondered why you came back to the site, Ginger, since stomping outta here in anger.

That was another thread. You are confused, again. I have difficulty dealing with your blasphemous statements. But I came back here because someone else was willing to try to help you and I decided the Christian thing was for me to also help and we were making some progres as You are starting to back off from your original claims.

I now know why. I never said his reason for getting into heaven was his saying “Oh, God, oh, God”.

HE GOT THERE BECAUSE HE LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR SOMEONE ELSE, just as Jesus laid down his life for us.

Without believing that God exists!

I never said he made a profession of faith. To the contrary, as I have said over and over, his PERFECT ACT OF CHARITY, could not exist without the other Theological virtues of Faith, Hope and the Moral virtues.

Then what is the point in insisting the atheist must have said “Oh, God oh God.”?

Whoever said that ‘others who believe in God and are trying to do what they think is good, may burn in hell’. Those others, as you refer to them are given sufficient grace to be saved, and God looks kindly on their good acts, supported by God’s grace.

Jesus said it mgrfin. These people who claim to have done good deeds in Jesus name, yet Jesus turns them away, while you insist an atheist will go to heaven for doing a good deed.

Please, Ginger, do not try to get even with me by misquoting me.
You should be ashamed of yourself to try to sneak that true. Read my posts, and take all of them into account before speaking.

I am not trying to get even or misquote you. You are revealing your misguided theology all on your own.

O God, help and enlighten you.

May the Catholic church stand up and correct you in love

 

[clmowry]

Those who,** through no fault of their own**, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

I’d like to meet this guy someday, I suspect he’s rather exceptional.

Of course others seem to think him your basic average Joe.

Chuck

 

[Ginger2]

HailMary;

Please read through the posts. You don’t know what you are talking about.

mgrfin is the one who brought up the hypothetical situation.

Your problem is that you assume fault with me because mgrfin is Catholic.

Read the entire thread and see if you believe what mgrfin claims.

 

[HailMary]

HailMary;

Please read through the posts. You don’t know what you are talking about.

mgrfin is the one who brought up the hypothetical situation.

Your problem is that you assume fault with me because mgrfin is Catholic.

Yes, I am saying that the hypothetical situation approach is usually ill-posed since we don’t know the heart of this man: only God knows. You’d have to qualify this was a lot to get any meaningful message from it.

Read the entire thread and see if you believe what mgrfin claims.

Catholicism doesn’t matter on the opinoins of laymen, clergy, or the Pope’s personal opinion. It matters on what the Church officially teaches.

 

[mgrfin]

That was another thread. You are confused, again. I have difficulty dealing with your blasphemous statements. But I came back here because someone else was willing to try to help you and I decided the Christian thing was for me to also help and we were making some progres as You are starting to back off from your original claims.

Without believing that God exists!

Then what is the point in insisting the atheist must have said “Oh, God oh God.”?

Jesus said it mgrfin. These people who claim to have done good deeds in Jesus name, yet Jesus turns them away, while you insist an atheist will go to heaven for doing a good deed.

I am not trying to get even or misquote you. You are revealing your misguided theology all on your own.

May the Catholic church stand up and correct you in love

I am espousing what the Catholic Church has said in its teaching Magisterium: St. Paul, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Ephrrem, etc.

I am not confused. You left the whole site. “I can’t deal with you anymore. I’m outta here”.

But you came back to my posts to take them out of context. You can never help me with your Protestant theology which believes that any good act before justification is sinful. Pure nonesense. Just like your insistence that the Bible is self-authenticating. More nonesense.

The Church is not going to stand up “to correct me” cause I am teaching St. Paul, the words of Jesus, and the writings of St, Thomas Aquinas.

Go back to my posts where I made it clear as our Saints have made it clear that the Virtues are interlocking. You cannont have a perfection in any Virtue, without it perfecting all the other virtues.

THIS PERFECT ACT OF CHARITY PERFECTS EACH AND EVERY OTHER VIRTUE: PERFECT FAITH, PERFECT HOPE, PERFECTING ALSO THE MORAL VIRTUES. PRUDENCE, JUSTICE, FORTITUDE, AND TEMPERANCE.

May the Holy Spirit enlighten you to the truth, Ginger.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

HailMary,

Here is a summary. mgrfin claims that an atheist can be saved by mere good works out of charity.

I, a Catholic, disagree. We both acknowledge atheist denies God knowingly, freely, and completely. I told him that if an atheist had to be saved, he had to cease to be atheist, or have repented moments before he dies. Only then he can be saved. Apart from God, an atheist cannot be saved because he reject God completely. He denies his very existence.

His views are very similiar to heresy called Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius. It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature (which, being created from God, was divine), and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid.

 

[mgrfin]

HailMary;

Please read through the posts. You don’t know what you are talking about.

mgrfin is the one who brought up the hypothetical situation.

Your problem is that you assume fault with me because mgrfin is Catholic.

Read the entire thread and see if you believe what mgrfin claims.

Ginger,

Citing people on this site with blasphemy is very dangerous, and against the forum rules.

Also, telling Catholics that they don’t know what they are talking about is also against forum rules.

She stands with me because she stands for the Catholic position.
I have never heard you state a 'Catholic position". That is not part of your agenda.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

HailMary,

Here is a summary. mgrfin claims that an atheist can be saved by mere good works out of charity.

I, a Catholic, disagree. We both acknowledge atheist denies God knowingly, freely, and completely. I told him that if an atheist had to be saved, he had to cease to be atheist, or have repented moments before he dies. Only then he can be saved. Apart from God, an atheist cannot be saved because he reject God completely. He denies his very existence.

His views are very similiar to heresy called Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius. It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature (which, being created from God, was divine), and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid.

Manny,
You are repeating yourself. I’ve answered you on this before.
Do you believe that there is a thing as PERFECT CHARITY? Do you believe that a person who lays down his life to save another is an act of PERFECT CHARITY?

Do you accept with St. Thomas, Jesus, St. Paul and others that PERFECT CHARITY does not exist in a vacuum? It brings with it perfect FAITH, perfect HOPE. If it doesn’t then such CHARITY, is not perfect.

Let me repost what I have said already:

"I understand what atheism is, as well as upholding the Magisterium of the Church. I also understand Pelagianism. I did not posit the issue of grace here in this post, since you cannot combine the whole of the Faith in one answer.

You added the element of atheism to this question. You completely missed the point. According to St. Thomas, it is charity that unites us to God, who is the end of the human mind, since ‘he that abides in charity abides in God and God in him’. Therefore the perfection of the Christian life consists radically in charity – not faith, not hope, but charity.

St. Paul tells us: “Above all things have charity, which is the bond of perfection’ because it binds, as it were, all the other virtues together in perfect unity (St. Thomas). God is the reason for our loving our neighbor out of charity.

Ambrose commenting maintained that all virtues are connected and interlocked such that he who has one has all. St. Gregory taught that if one virtue could be had without the others, either it is not a virtue, or it is not perfect. Our Good Samatarian has perfect charity, shown by his laying down his life for his neighbor.

Our good man merits heaven where he shares Charity with the Saints. Charity, is LOVE, and it is this virtue which he possesses, and which supplies for all of the others at the moment of his death.

I hope you understand this, and do not repeat your accusations of heresy against me.

peace

 

[HailMary]

HailMary,

Here is a summary. mgrfin claims that an atheist can be saved by mere good works out of charity.

I, a Catholic, disagree. We both acknowledge atheist denies God knowingly, freely, and completely. I told him that if an atheist had to be saved, he had to cease to be atheist, or have repented moments before he dies. Only then he can be saved. Apart from God, an atheist cannot be saved because he reject God completely. He denies his very existence.

His views are very similiar to heresy called Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius. It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature (which, being created from God, was divine), and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid.

I am not aware of any dogmatic statments that mention salvation through a perfect act of charity but if I recall properly, a perfect act of charity is not something we can do on our own, but rather, moved by the Spirit, can accomplish, provided, we choose, in our free will.

I guess, the better question is, to qualify this hypothetical situation, is, will the Holy Spirit grant an act of perfect charity to him who denies Him? That I don’t know.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Answer this question then.

Does an atheist deny God completely? You posted:

“Above all things have charity, which is the bond of perfection’ because it binds, as it were, all the other virtues together in perfect unity (St. Thomas). God is the reason for our loving our neighbor out of charity.

This would make sense if the atheist recants his atheistic views and accept God as his creator. I know we are going around in circle here, mr. I just don’t buy into it.

Through no fault of their own applies clearly to those to who have common belief in a creator, like Muslims, Jews, Protestants, etc… but un-believers? Those who deny the creator? God, the creator the source of all grace?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I am not aware of any dogmatic statments that mention salvation through a perfect act of charity but if I recall properly, a perfect act of charity is not something we can do on our own, but rather, moved by the Spirit, can accomplish, provided, we choose, in our free will.

I guess, the better question is, to qualify this hypothetical situation, is, will the Holy Spirit grant an act of perfect charity to him who denies Him? That I don’t know.

It really does depends on the situation of the atheist. We are only going through possible what if scenarios.