Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

[BarryI]

Then I guess we differ in our terminology. You continue to refer to baptism of blood, and I keep referring to only one baptism (either water, blood or desire).

A martyr does not receive a ‘baptism of blood’ if we speak of the entry sacrament of the body of Christ unless he has never received a baptism of water beforehand.

A martyr may have no purgatorial experience if his sufferings in this life make up for all temporal effects of sin. I have no way of judging that. That would depend on the attitude of the martyr during the suffering and his prior attachment to sin.

You say we don’t pray for martyrs. But if they are Saints, we don’t pray for any Saints: Martyrs, Virgins, Apostles, Priests, Confessors, Holy men or women. Once canonized we know they have been purged of all attachment to sin.

As to the arguments you raised. I would need to find time to review the elements of this thread. Time is short, but I vaguely recall that you did display some documentation that showed some in authority in the Church believe what you have stated. You definitely have a good argument on your side, but I am unconvinced. To me, it just seems theologically doubtful.

I will re-state my original request here again. I would like someone, anyone to please direct me to the passage(s) in the Bible where Jesus says purgatory or purging of ones sins. That is all This way I can read it and get an understanding of it too

 

[BarryI]

What does this have to do with my question? Can you quote scripture that says sinners can enter heaven?

You’ve already told us that you are a sinner. If you believe that sinners cannot enter heaven, how will you ever enter heaven?

ALL sins will be forgiven at death and we remain in the grave until Jesus calls is out on Judgment day. Then those whose works were good will be resurrected to eternal life , and those whose works were evil will be resurrected to eternal condemnation.

 

[snarflemike]

I will re-state my original request here again. I would like someone, anyone to please direct me to the passage(s) in the Bible where Jesus says purgatory or purging of ones sins. That is all This way I can read it and get an understanding of it too

And I am asking you the counter-question, where in the Bible Jesus says that a sinner can enter heaven.

Most Christians believe 2 things:

1. On earth we are sinners and inclined to sin
2. In heaven we will not be sinners, nor inclined to sin
   (BTW, you never said if you believe #2)

Now the obvious question is, how does one go from being a sinner and inclined to sin, to not being a sinner and not being inclined to sin. Is it through your own efforts, your own force of will? Or is it through the grace of God?

You are stubbornly resisting the obvious here, pretending there is no elephant in your parlor, which is that between this life and our life in heaven, God grants us an all-cleansing, all-perfecting grace. We don’t know the details of this process, but that this process occurs is something I don’t see how any Christian can deny.

So let me ask you yet ANOTHER question: Do you believe that, after death and before entering heaven, God grants all who are saved an all-cleansing, all-perfecting grace?

Or perhaps you believe you perfect yourself through your own efforts. Is that it?

 

[BarryI]

And I am asking you the counter-question, where in the Bible Jesus says that a sinner can enter heaven.

Most Christians believe 2 things:

1. On earth we are sinners and inclined to sin
2. In heaven we will not be sinners, nor inclined to sin
   (BTW, you never said if you believe #2)

Now the obvious question is, how does one go from being a sinner and inclined to sin, to not being a sinner and not being inclined to sin. Is it through your own efforts, your own force of will? Or is it through the grace of God?

You are stubbornly resisting the obvious here, pretending there is no elephant in your parlor, which is that between this life and our life in heaven, God grants us an all-cleansing, all-perfecting grace. We don’t know the details of this process, but that this process occurs is something I don’t see how any Christian can deny.

So let me ask you yet ANOTHER question: Do you believe that, after death and before entering heaven, God grants all who are saved an all-cleansing, all-perfecting grace?

Or perhaps you believe you perfect yourself through your own efforts. Is that it?

Once again I will state my case. I am only looking for the passage in the Bible where God or Jesus tells us about purgatory and how we have to purge our sins to enter heaven. First and foremost that is all I am asking someone to do, so that I too can read it and understand it.

 

[snarflemike]

Once again I will state my case. I am only looking for the passage in the Bible where God or Jesus tells us about purgatory and how we have to purge our sins to enter heaven. First and foremost that is all I am asking someone to do, so that I too can read it and understand it.

Your stubborn refusal to discuss your beliefs about one of the simplest and most fundamental aspect of the Christian faith makes me wonder if you perhaps hold some heretical views which you do not want to reveal.

I am thus led to presume that you either believe
a) that sinners may be present in heaven,
or
b) that you will, through your own efforts, make yourself perfect and without sin or inclination to sin.

Both of these views are gravely in error, of course. Until we can help you correct these views, there is no point in discussing anything else.

 

[BarryI]

Your stubborn refusal to discuss your beliefs about one of the simplest and most fundamental aspect of the Christian faith makes me wonder if you perhaps hold some heretical views which you do not want to reveal.

I am thus led to presume that you either believe
a) that sinners may be present in heaven,
or
b) that you will, through your own efforts, make yourself perfect and without sin or inclination to sin.

Both of these views are gravely in error, of course. Until we can help you correct these views, there is no point in discussing anything else.

No sir, I am not stubborn. I only want the passage in the Bible so that I may read it said by God or Jesus so that I can get an understanding of it . I never ever said there were dinners in heaven. I always quoted Scripture and what Jesus Himself said. I only always just asked for the verse or verses where God or Jesus tells mankind about purgatory. That’s it. I’m not asking for anything else, just that. Can you direct me to that verse or verses? Thank you kindly.

 

[snarflemike]

No sir, I am not stubborn. I only want the passage in the Bible so that I may read it said by God or Jesus so that I can get an understanding of it . I never ever said there were dinners in heaven. I always quoted Scripture and what Jesus Himself said. I only always just asked for the verse or verses where God or Jesus tells mankind about purgatory. That’s it. I’m not asking for anything else, just that. Can you direct me to that verse or verses? Thank you kindly.

Not until you convince me that you do not have heretical views regarding sin and heaven. Back to you.

 

[BarryI]

Not until you convince me that you do not have heretical views regarding sin and heaven. Back to you.

I am just looking for the verse or verses where God or Jesus describes purgatory. It is purely by Their Word that my beliefs and faith are based on. I just would like direction to that or those passages

 

[snarflemike]

I am just looking for the verse or verses where God or Jesus describes purgatory. It is purely by Their Word that my beliefs and faith are based on. I just would like direction to that or those passages

No you’re not, because if you were, you wouldn’t be so afraid to own up to some of the most basic of all Christian teachings, and you wouldn’t stick like crazy glue to your talking points.

But hey, everybody needs a hobby.

I’ll end this very enlightening conversation with you by asking one more time a couple of basic Christian doctrine questions, ones that anybody who claims to be a Christian should be able to answer at the drop of a hat:

1. Are sin and sinners allowed in heaven?
2. Who removes our earthly attachment to sin before we enter heaven, us or God?

I know that, strangely, you won’t answer these questions, but nobody can say I didn’t try.

 

[BarryI]

No you’re not, because if you were, you wouldn’t be so afraid to own up to some of the most basic of all Christian teachings, and you wouldn’t stick like crazy glue to your talking points.

But hey, everybody needs a hobby.

I’ll end this very enlightening conversation with you by asking one more time a couple of basic Christian doctrine questions, ones that anybody who claims to be a Christian should be able to answer at the drop of a hat:

1. Are sin and sinners allowed in heaven?
2. Who removes our earthly attachment to sin before we enter heaven, us or God?

I know that, strangely, you won’t answer these questions, but nobody can say I didn’t try.

I will answer based on my belief and scriptural knowledge. Sinners are not allowed in heaven. In fact, Jesus said in John 3. No one has ascended to heaven, except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man.tjis indicates clearly that no one goes to heaven. Sorry we remain in the ground until the last day when he calls everyone out of the graves. This is what Jesus spoke about. He never gave anybody any indication they were going to heaven.

 

[Emerite]

The NT Bible, referencing things that Jesus said and did, was reported by the apostles, and the first Bible was written by monks in manuscript form. My advanced English college classes taught about semantics, which might explain why the actual word “purgatory” is not written per se in the Bible, however is referenced to at several locations within the Bible (see previous discussions of chapters and verses.) This special English class I was chosen for, was almost beyond my comprehension; however I can understand where the Bible is referencing a place fitting the definition of purgatory. Any intelligent person, with an open mind, should get the gist.

 

[BarryI]

The NT Bible, referencing things that Jesus said and did, was reported by the apostles, and the first Bible was written by monks in manuscript form. My advanced English college classes taught about semantics, which might explain why the actual word “purgatory” is not written per se in the Bible, however is referenced to at several locations within the Bible (see previous discussions of chapters and verses.) This special English class I was chosen for, was almost beyond my comprehension; however I can understand where the Bible is referencing a place fitting the definition of purgatory. Any intelligent person, with an open mind, should get the gist.

Ok then give me one of those passages so I to can study it please. Thank you.

 

[Emerite]

Ok then give me one of those passages so I to can study it please. Thank you.

Some of the scripture references on Purgatory/need for purification before entering heaven include: Matthew 12:36 and 12:32; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15; Hebrews 12:11,14; Revelations 21:27; 1 Peter 3:19; 2 Macchabees 12:43-46; Romans 5:3-5; and 2 Thessolonians 2:13

 

[BarryI]

The NT Bible, referencing things that Jesus said and did, was reported by the apostles, and the first Bible was written by monks in manuscript form. My advanced English college classes taught about semantics, which might explain why the actual word “purgatory” is not written per se in the Bible, however is referenced to at several locations within the Bible (see previous discussions of chapters and verses.) This special English class I was chosen for, was almost beyond my comprehension; however I can understand where the Bible is referencing a place fitting the definition of purgatory. Any intelligent person, with an open mind, should get the gist.

Some of the scripture references on Purgatory/need for purification before entering heaven include: Matthew 12:36 and 12:32; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15; Hebrews 12:11,14; Revelations 21:27; 1 Peter 3:19; 2 Macchabees 12:43-46; Romans 5:3-5; and 2 Thessolonians 2:13

I can only quote on the passage from Matthew here as I am at work and cannot review the others right now, but Jesus here was talking about Judgement Day nothing about a purging of sins.

 

[Nita]

No sir, I’m sorry you never have me a Bible Verse that actuall spells out the word purgatory. I do not think that Jesus would have came to the earth and miss telling humanity about such an important place for mankind to think about and reflect on. No one has been able to give me that/those verses that spell out purgatory that Jesus would have surely spelled out

Why do you think Jesus “would have surely spelled out” purgatory. It is Jesus Himself, who, at the Last Supper on the night before His death, told His apostles (the heads/bishops of His Church):
John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. Jesus has continued to reveal the “many things” He wants us to know. These things are revealed to us by the working of the Holy Spirit in the leaders of Jesus’ Church – as/when His Church is able to “bear them”.

 

[Nita]

I will answer based on my belief and scriptural knowledge. Sinners are not allowed in heaven. In fact, Jesus said in John 3. No one has ascended to heaven, except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man.tjis indicates clearly that no one goes to heaven. Sorry we remain in the ground until the last day when he calls everyone out of the graves. This is what Jesus spoke about. He never gave anybody any indication they were going to heaven.

Do you believe we (human beings) are composed of a spiritual, immaterial soul as well as a physical, material body?

 

[Nita]

… Sorry we remain in the ground until the last day when he calls everyone out of the graves. This is what Jesus spoke about. He never gave anybody any indication they were going to heaven.

Jesus says this to the good thief as they both hang dying on the cross:
Luke 23:43 This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise".

If you accept the truth of the other NT books of Scripture, St. Paul says in:
*Phil 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. 1:24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

2 Cor 5:8 We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord*.

 

[BarryI]

Do you believe we (human beings) are composed of a spiritual, immaterial soul as well as a physical, material body?

We are born of flesh and blood from another who is flesh and blood. We are not spirits .We have a human existence that God purposely created for life on earth. Not heaven. Heaven is where the spirit world resides. We were created to live forever on earth until Satan corrupted Eve and mankind fell from grace Notice what God told Adam in Genesis 3:19 "you will return to the ground, for out of it you were taken . For dust you are and to dust you will return " the same words you hear o n Ash Wednesday. You are acknowledging that you are human and you will be returned to the ground. Notice Hod did notable Adam a spirit, but a human from the earth which is why he created us to inhabit this only planet that supports life . If he wanted us to reside with Him in Heaven, then He would have made us spirit creatures

 

[Nita]

We are born of flesh and blood from another who is flesh and blood. We are not spirits .We have a human existence that God purposely created for life on earth. Not heaven. Heaven is where the spirit world resides. We were created to live forever on earth until Satan corrupted Eve and mankind fell from grace Notice what God told Adam in Genesis 3:19 "you will return to the ground, for out of it you were taken . For dust you are and to dust you will return " the same words you hear o n Ash Wednesday. You are acknowledging that you are human and you will be returned to the ground. Notice Hod did notable Adam a spirit, but a human from the earth which is why he created us to inhabit this only planet that supports life . If he wanted us to reside with Him in Heaven, then He would have made us spirit creatures

Genesis also says - “then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”

The “breath” that came from God is something different from the material earth from which He formed Adam’s physical body. This breath that came from Him and entered us did not come from the earth; it came directly from God. And it is what gives life to the material “stuff” of which our physical bodies are made. When our body is no longer a “living” thing, it is because that immaterial “breath” is no longer present in it. When it (our human, created spirit/soul) departs, our material created body dies - and returns to the dust from which it was created.

I think it is this difference in our understanding of what constitutes human nature that is keeping you from understanding much of what we are trying to communicate to you.

(BTW, the words in Genesis 3:19 were spoken after Adam sinned. They were part of the punishment for his sin. Which implies that would not have been part of the human condition had he chosen not to sin.)

 

[snarflemike]

I will answer based on my belief and scriptural knowledge. Sinners are not allowed in heaven. In fact, Jesus said in John 3. No one has ascended to heaven, except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man.tjis indicates clearly that no one goes to heaven. Sorry we remain in the ground until the last day when he calls everyone out of the graves. This is what Jesus spoke about. He never gave anybody any indication they were going to heaven.

Wow, just when I had given up on you.

So now we have established

1. That we are sinners here on earth
2. That no sinners will be allowed in heaven (when does not matter)

So now we are just left with one question. When, after death and before you enter heaven, you are changed from a sinner to a non-sinner, will it be through your efforts or through God’s grace?