Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

[LionHeart777]

Isaiah 64:6 lets us know that what we think is good works are like filthy rags. We can’t compare oursleves to God’s holiness in our fallen state. The angel announced the God-Man had arrived and He would save the world from their sins; the Savior. What has He saved us from? If He didn’t need to come to redeem us than why would God put His Son through such suffering? God should have kept His Son in heaven with Him if He died in vain and He did not accomplish anything. That would be erroneous!

This is a “straw man”, no one is arguing that we weren’t in need of saving.

Also, as a former Protestant I understand the reference to Isaiah 64:6. However, this passage is often wrongly used. Scripture has a lot more to say about good works than what you have cited here. Furthermore, I recommend this Catholic Answer in regards to the passage you have cited.

 

[Christ_in_Linda]

This is a “straw man”, no one is arguing that we weren’t in need of saving.

Also, as a former Protestant I understand the reference to Isaiah 64:6. However, this passage is often wrongly used. Scripture has a lot more to say about good works than what you have cited here. Furthermore, I recommend this Catholic Answer in regards to the passage you have cited.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

Just like the thief on the cross that called on Jesus for his salvation and Jesus responed by assuring this man that he would be with Jesus that very day. That is the simplicity of the gospel!

 

[LionHeart777]

Purgatory by definition is a place of testing and of purging ones sins. This is in the now and here whilst we are still alive. As Hebrews author writes once we die then it is judgement, that is, the coming of the Lord, the white throne judgement.

Perhaps you define it as a “place” but the Catholic Church doesn’t specify and the Catechism refers to it as a state. The “place” part is Theological speculation. Remember there are 2 judgements, the particular (immediately after death) and the general at the Resurrection at the end of time. Yes the temporal punishment due to sin and “lighter faults” (i.e. venial sins can be purged here and now) but if one’s soul still has “wood”, “hay” and “stubble”, then these must be purged post mortem since nothing unclean can enter Heaven (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:15, Revelation 21:27)

…Purgatory after death is biblically unfounded because then it would denigrate our Lord as to imply that Christ didn’t finish the job concerning our salvation and he needs to somehow manifest himself the second time to finish it of.

I disagree, 2 Macc. 12:43-45 , Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59, Matt. 12:32, 1 Cor. 3:10-15, are some examples (Source: scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html) Perhaps we can look how these verses were interpreted by early Christians and clergy?

Even more concerning for those that believe in a waiting pending judgement is to completely take out the sanctifying functional role of God the Holy Spirit who sees the job through to its completion in every sanctified believer when they die to receive their manifest token that was already Laid up for them by Christ, to be claimed once a faithful dies in Christ…

(Bold mine)

Please show me in the Bible where it says that the sanctification process is complete in everyone at death.

 

[LionHeart777]

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

Just like the thief on the cross that called on Jesus for his salvation and Jesus responed by assuring this man that he would be with Jesus that very day. That is the simplicity of the gospel!

Christ in Linda,

For reference, you are speaking to a former Protestant who once believed the same thing. I trust you know that the Bible says much more about Salvation than this one verse, yes? Even then, are you aware that in Acts 2:21, this is a Jewish audience who would not have taken it in the way you are? And furthermore, we read down some verses later, Peter says: ““Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.” (Verse 38) I have cited the NIV for you from:
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202&version=NIV (Even though this version has at least one corrupt translation I am aware of.)

 

[LionHeart777]

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

Just like the thief on the cross that called on Jesus for his salvation and Jesus responed by assuring this man that he would be with Jesus that very day. That is the simplicity of the gospel!

You realize in the passage involving the Thief on the Cross (St. Dismas is his name, the Bible doesn’t tell you that though), and the promise made by Jesus was before Jesus had opened up Heaven; until that point, the dead went to Abraham’s Bosom (Luke 16:22-23).

 

[SEER_OF_CHRIST]

Perhaps you define it as a “place” but the Catholic Church doesn’t specify and the Catechism refers to it as a state. The “place” part is Theological speculation. Remember there are 2 judgements, the particular (immediately after death) and the general at the Resurrection at the end of time. Yes the temporal punishment due to sin and “lighter faults” (i.e. venial sins can be purged here and now) but if one’s soul still has “wood”, “hay” and “stubble”, then these must be purged post mortem since nothing unclean can enter Heaven (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:15, Revelation 21:27)

I disagree, 2 Macc. 12:43-45 , Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59, Matt. 12:32, 1 Cor. 3:10-15, are some examples (Source: scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html) Perhaps we can look how these verses were interpreted by early Christians and clergy?

(Bold mine)

Please show me in the Bible where it says that the sanctification process is complete in everyone at death.

Hello beloved in Christ

I will answer briefly Good willing., allow me to be your servant.

John 3:5

Salvation = Water (baptism as justification) + Fire (born again by God the Holy Spirit as sanctification)

The SEAL of God Good the Holy Spirit is the final stamp of approval.

There are two baptisms:
One is a calling by the great commission priesthood to baptize by water into Christ.

The second is spiritual and is a life long rehabilitation process arbitrated by God the Holy Spirit in the life of every justified believer.

As the saying goes many are called from the great commission point of view yet very few are sealed to migrate to the heavenly Kingdom by God the Holy Spirit.

If you have to wait for your salvation at the end of age to be dressed in the resurrection body to be with Christ then Romans 8:11 must be ignored

 

[LionHeart777]

Hello beloved in Christ

I will answer briefly Good willing., allow me to be your servant.

John 3:5

Salvation = Water (baptism as justification) + Fire (born again by God the Holy Spirit as sanctification)

The SEAL of God Good the Holy Spirit is the final stamp of approval.

There are two baptisms:
One is a calling by the great commission priesthood to baptize by water into Christ.

The second is spiritual and is a life long rehabilitation process arbitrated by God the Holy Spirit in the life of every justified believer.

As the saying goes many are called from the great commission point of view yet very few are sealed to migrate to the heavenly Kingdom by God the Holy Spirit.

If you have to wait for your salvation at the end of age to be dressed in the resurrection body to be with Christ then Romans 8:11 must be ignored

Salvation, Biblically speaking, is referred to in the past, present, and future tenses. Who said one has to wait until the final resurrection to be with Christ? True, we will be bodily resurrected at the end of ages, but the lack of a body does not inhibit one from being with Christ after death.

Also, you said: “Salvation = Water (baptism as justification) + Fire (born again by God the Holy Spirit as sanctification)”

We believe we are born again in Baptism as the Lord teaches (John 3:5), and as has been believed by Catholics for 2,000 years. (See here for evidence from the first half of the first millennium). When you say “sanctification”, our concept is different if I’m not mistaken. This would be a good read: newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm Purgatory is the final rush of sanctification for those who remain with “wood”, “hay” and “stubble” on their souls after death (1 Cor. 3:15)

Also, we believe in “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” as St. Paul teaches (Ephesians 4:5) (drbo.org/chapter/56004.htm)

I’m still not seeing where you are showing me from the Bible (not that this is the only source of Divine Revelation) where our sanctification is accomplished at death for everyone.

 

[SEER_OF_CHRIST]

If we say sanctification is not complete when we die then we have not placed our trust and faith in God the Holy Spirit who sees the life long sanctification/rehabilitation process through until we pass from this life to the eternal life with Christ.

If sanctification is not complete when we die then what are we doing here and where is the role of God the Holy Spirit.

As you can see your answer is answered friend, it is only a matter of puting your trust and faith in God.

 

[LionHeart777]

If we say sanctification is not complete when we die then we have not placed our trust and faith in God the Holy Spirit who sees the life long sanctification/rehabilitation process through until we pass from this life to the eternal life with Christ.

Brother, I am still waiting for your evidence other than your say so. Show me from Scripture or from Christian writers from the first 500 years of the Church that this is so.

If sanctification is not complete when we die then what are we doing here and where is the role of God the Holy Spirit.

You are assuming that if our sanctification isn’t complete at death, that we have no purpose for having been on the earth or that God the Holy Spirit has no role, this is not the case. Is this a rhetorical question or do you want an answer?

As you can see your answer is answered friend, it is only a matter of puting your trust and faith in God.

I disagree, and now I will show you the Catholic position from Scripture and from the Fathers. It will not be exhaustive however. I will not write all what the Fathers say about Purgatory (final purification), rather, what they have written relating to Purgatory commenting on the texts from Scripture I will cite.

I will point out before we begin that Orthodox Jews to this day, pray for the departed, and Orthodox and Catholic Christians do to. Christians have been praying for the dead for 2,000 years. Jews did in the 1st century according to Josephus and for hundreds of years before as we see in 2 Maccabees. Why do this if it is for no reason? But I digress…

Let’s start with “(Matthew 12:32): ‘And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.’”

Source: Hanna, Edward. “Purgatory.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 12. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1911. 2 Jul. 2013 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm. (Blue mine)

Now, to back up my citation of St. Matthew 12:32 in regards to Purgatory:

According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life ‘some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire.’ St. Augustine also argues ‘that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come’ (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

Source: Ibid.

 

[LionHeart777]

Continued…

Now let’s move on:

“Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, ‘Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.’ …”

Source: scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

I believe St. Cyprian of Carthage references one of these verses when he writes:

‘For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.’ Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

Source: Ibid. (Blue mine)

And a few decades earlier in A.D. 210 Tertullian wrote:

'[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense…Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term ‘adversary’ to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord’s) injunction, while you are in the way with him, ‘to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as ‘the accuser of the brethren,’ or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).’

Source: * Ibid.*

Continued…

 

[LionHeart777]

Continued…

Now we come to a more often cited passage, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

‘For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.’

Source: Hanna, Edward. “Purgatory.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 12. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1911. 2 Jul. 2013 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm.

We read in the Catholic Encyclopedia that:

While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:

St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
St. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37),
St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.).

Source: Ibid.

I will track down a couple of citations on 1 Corinthians 3 regarding Purgatory:

Here is Origen [writing in the A.D. 200’s]:

‘For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Corinthians 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.’ (P.G., XIII, col. 445, 448).

Source: Ibid.

Here is St. Augustine in A.D. 413:

‘If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not–provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever–no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works.’ Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1 (A.D. 413).

Source: scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

 

[pablope]

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

Maybe you have not heard of Matt 7:21:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So can you explain to me and everyone here…why your qouted passage in Acts 2:21 is contradicting Matt 7:21?

Just like the thief on the cross that called on Jesus for his salvation and Jesus responed by assuring this man that he would be with Jesus that very day. That is the simplicity of the gospel!

 

[pablope]

If we say sanctification is not complete when we die then we have not placed our trust and faith in God the Holy Spirit who sees the life long sanctification/rehabilitation process through until we pass from this life to the eternal life with Christ.

If sanctification is not complete when we die then what are we doing here and where is the role of God the Holy Spirit.

As you can see your answer is answered friend, it is only a matter of puting your trust and faith in God.

Seer…who is to judge whether our sanctification is complete or not?

Can you say for sure, you have suffered enough? You have repented of your sins enough? You have cleansed your sinful nature enough? You have done good works enough?

Rom 2 v6 says… God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

If Jesus says at your judgement…your sanctification and your purification, you still carry sinful nature and inclination…where will you go to complete your sanctification and purification?

 

[steve_b]

Isaiah 64:6 lets us know that what we think is good works are like filthy rags.

context context context

Isaiah isn’t indicting everyone’s works on the planet. Only the people he’s refering to.

The reason good works are good, is because God created us to do the works that He prepared in advance for us to do. [Eph 2:10] And if we don’t do what we are created by God to do, then we get cut down and thrown in the fire like the fig tree. (btw, that’s not an analogy of Purgatory, it’s hell)

[Lk 13:6-9] 6 And he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Lo, these three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down; why should it use up the ground?’ 8 And he answered him, ‘Let it alone, sir, this year also, till I dig about it and put on manure. 9 And if it bears fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.
C:

We can’t compare oursleves to God’s holiness in our fallen state. The angel announced the God-Man had arrived and He would save the world from their sins; the Savior. What has He saved us from? If He didn’t need to come to redeem us than why would God put His Son through such suffering? God should have kept His Son in heaven with Him if He died in vain and He did not accomplish anything. That would be erroneous!

He saved us from hell. He made it possible for sins to be forgiven.

Therefore, No one has to go to hell. That doesn’t translate to everyone goes to heaven. We have free will. Jesus doesn’t force anyone to be saved.

 

[JerryZ]

This is still an issue for me only because God could have just never let Jesus die for us then. God could have just allowed us to go to purgatory, or anyone for that matter. However this is contrary to Scripture; Jesus had to die and had to be raised from the dead.

1 corin 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.

But according to Catholic’s, one can simply be placed in purgatory for his sins. So why did Christ need to die if one can simply go to purgatory for their sins?

Jesus paid the price that needed paying which I could NOT pay.
For then I would need to die NOW for my sins.
He allowed me to repent and be forgiven, that does not give me a “free ride” on Jesus’s back to Heaven.
I need to work my salvation 1 day at a time as St. Paul admonishes me, with “fear and trembling”.
That means that I need to strive to be perfect which I AM NOT!
Now as others have already stated and is clear in John’s Gospel, not all sins are created equal.
Some sins are “mortal” to the soul, they do not KILL the soul, they kill the relationship with GOD. And if I die with an unrepented mortal sin on me there is but 1 destination for my soul, HELL. Even if I die with repented venial sin, there still remains this proclivity toward commiting those “little” sins, perhaps you do not even consider them to be sins.
Loosing your temper, thinking something uncharitable towards someone, even being lazy and not doing what it is your duty, telling a “little” white lie, etc. etc. etc.
Well guess what. Nothing imperfect will enter Heaven.
So how I am going to be able to enter it?
By an act that can only be performed by God Himself, He will remove any and all “attachment” to sin I may have (commit those acts I listed above), allow me to pay to the last penny my debt for the sins He did forgive, but have consequences nontheless.
This is what the Church teaches about Purgatory. I am not afraid of it.
Nope I am cheerfull and I pray I’ll make it to Purgatory, because I am not a Saint
And I also pray for the souls that are there that they may be released sooner.
I am afraid of hell, but I am even more afraid on spending eternity removed from God.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I’ve encounter both sayings, including from saints.

Example: “Purgatory is not a place of misery and unwanted torment; even though it is a place of suffering. Purgatory is a place of love, hope and peace. It was created by love—the love which God has for His beloved children. Purgatory was a necessity born out of love because only the purest of souls can enter Heaven; and if Purgatory did not exist, most souls would never be allowed in God’s Heaven of pure love.”

What’s the official description?

We kind of got sidetracked from the original question into the Biblical justification for the concept of Purgatory, but this is something I think about a lot, too.

I can think of a lot of very physical possibilities of what the state of Purgatory might be like if my only conception is something like a Penitentiary for the Dead - my imagination is febrile enough that I can picture being trapped for eons in a situation that terrifies me, like being stuck in a dark, hot, enclosed crevice with barely room to expand my chest to breathe and no room to move, feeling a claustrophobic panic attack that seems like it will never end. There are a lot of possibilities open if the goal is simply physical “punishment” and pain until I’ve paid my debt. I could be wrong, but I don’t think that will be part of the process. (Although I could be wrong.)

The things that seem to hurt us the most, if we are at all moral persons, are recognitions and acknowledgement of the pain and disappointment we cause others whom we care about. Such experiences are incredibly painful, but also in some way positive, in that it causes - or forces - us to expand our understanding and compassion for others, and to accept our own responsibility for others.

I have no canonical support for this, but it seems to me at least a possibility that the state of Purgatory is being granted a glimpse of God’s full omniscient vision as we examine our life on earth, and being given full knowledge of the effects of all our unforgiven sins. Perhaps we experience every sin we have committed against another, no matter how venial or small we thought it was, and have to experience its effect through the ones we wronged, perhaps through their whole life. Perhaps we are granted knowledge of how that sin is passed on through the behavior of the one we wronged, both laterally in the way they then act to those around them, and down through time through their children, and their children’s children. We might be given a sense of how even sins that we do not think affect anyone but ourselves, do in fact affect others. We may have to answer for sins of omission, and learn how the times we could have offered care or support or understanding or alms, but didn’t, could have made other’s lives better.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

(cont.)

The offhand unkind comment we made to another and quickly forgot, for instance, may become part of a burden that makes their lives less enjoyable, makes the person less trusting of others, makes them lash out at another. And those sins, which are complicit in your sins, are passed on to others, and those on to others. Some of the effects of the burden of those venial unkindnesses may lead others to some quite mortal sins.

We may have to follow the effects and transmission of all the wrongs we have done through year after year, perhaps even experiencing them as all those we have wronged experienced them, perhaps to the end of time and the Second Coming. We would be outside space and time in this perspective, but this experience of full knowledge of the magnitude of all our sins could seem to last for eons.

And I would suspect that we may be accompanied in this purifying journey by Another who feels the pain of each person we have wronged as strongly, or more so, than we do or the wronged one does, because whatever wrong we have done to another, we have done to the Man beside us who created us all, and who feels each wrong done to any of His creations as any father does to any of his children. And who warned us that whatever we do to the least of our brothers, we have also done to Him. And whose own sacrifice to obtain forgiveness for the web of sins all mankind committed stands as conviction of our continued errors.

Picture the person in this world whom you love and respect more than anyone else, and how mortified you would be to tell all your sins and disappoint them, and imagine how even more horrible you would feel if every wrong you have done, you have done to this person you love. Magnify that person’s attributes by infinity, and you can imagine some of what you would feel as you relive all your sins, as experienced by the ones harmed and through this Man. Perhaps, at the end of each journey of regret, you have to confess what you have done with full understanding of its consequences, understand His sorrowful disappointment in you, and finally beg forgiveness of Him, then begin to examine your next sin.

So, if it is a place of suffering, it would also be a place of hope, for the knowledge that however undeserved, He will forgive you. It would be a humbling and unimaginably painful experience, but as a purification and a chance for forgiveness, one that we would welcome. Like the moments of pain before confession, and the feelings of release once you step outside the confession booth and begin your penance, writ even larger.

So how does prayer for the dead help in such situations? When you are going through hard times, the support and love of those around you helps. The members of your Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, who continue to be part of that Church whether in Heaven or Earth, can only help you in the journey towards purification of your sins. Offering up one’s own sufferings for those being purified, or trying to act more righteously, or even simply offering their support, would be felt (perhaps in a vaguely similar way) to the cheers from the sidelines of those who have finished the race before you, or who are waiting to begin the race themselves. As anyone who has ever done an arduous race can tell you, the love and support of those who know what you are going through is enormous.

Among the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the support and love of His Church. Its power to help us should not be underestimated.

I can’t argue that this is anything close to what we may experience when going through Purgatory, but it seems like it might be something similar.

 

[Christ_in_Linda]

The gospel is simple in nature. Jesus was approached by Nicodemus; a man who was considered ‘religious’ in his community and he knew, supposedly, God’s word and yet he heard something in Jesus’ teachings that made him question what he had been taught. He was a very wise man because he made the decision to seek further truth by going to see Jesus at night; probably didn’t want to ruin his facade and prestige he received in his community. He was blunt and asked Jesus what he must do to be saved and Jesus quickly responded and said he MUST be born again. Nicodemus was very confused and thought Jesus was speaking about a physcial birth and he asked Jesus how was he suppose to enter his mother’s womb again as an adult man. Jesus told Nicodemus that He was not speaking about a physcical birth but a new spiritual birth. When God created Adam in His image, Adam was just lying there on the ground lifeless until God breathed into Adam and He became alive. It is our spirit that was identical to God; definitely not our bodies and soul. Adam’s spirit wa perfect, sinless and holy and was able to commune with a holy God in the cool of the day.After Adam messed up and yielded to the lies of Satan, that communication changed because a holy God cannot be in the presence of anyone unholy. Remember, God asked Moses to take his sandals off and when Moses asked to see God He told Moses He couldn’t but He hid him in a cleft of a rock and showed His back part of Himself. God still had a future plan to restore man to Himself and that plan was His Son, Jesus; the Sacrificial Lamb who came to redeem us back to a relationship with the Father.Just like Jesus explained to Nicodemus, those who have faith in Him and His redemptive power will inherit everlasting life. Nicidemus was one of those people who says Lord Lord and yet God does not even hear them! It isn’t their deeds (works) that impresses God, it is the acknowledgement of His Son as their Savior. This is a gift that MUST be accepted; Nicodemus was given the information as to how to be saved and then it was Nicodemus who must decide what he is going to do with this new information; accept it in faith or reject it for his man made ideas and doctrines! It was Nicodemus’ choice; life or death. He must decide to go on believing as he had in the past, which Jesus said was death or believe the new revelation Jesus gave him and by faith apply it to his own life. This is where the persecution comes into the picture. Nicodemus’ religious friends and council members would probably have disowned him, but Jesus said when you follow Him, there will be those who will NOT agrree with His words and you will pay a price. But who cares! Jesus, the Author and finisher of our faith paid the price for us all and if we reject Him; there is no other name under heaven in which we can be saved; He is the only way to the Father. Those who reject Him as the full payment of their sins have no other alternative. Those who accept Him, by faith, will enter into the presence of Almighty God; forever; just like the thief on the cross who acceptd Jesus and was rewarded by Jesus by spending eternity with Him; beginning that very day of his death.

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; and I will not remember your sins.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.

Jeremiah 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor , and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their inquity, and their sin I will remember no more.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD, though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shll be as wool.

Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far has **He removed **our transgressions from us

Note, it is Him that has removed our sin; we cannot remove our own sins because we are unrighteous to begin with and we need Someone who is righteous to take ouy place; an Advocate, and His name is Jesus Christ.

Jesus Himself put it this way:

John 3:16 For God so loved the whole world that He GAVE His only begotten Son, that whosoever **believes in Him **should not perish but have everlasting life.

We MUST humble ourselves and accept His perfect sacrifice and just say a continual “thank you” for loving us unconditionally and becoming our substitute payment. There is NO greater love! . . .why would anyone reject such a precious Savior?

 

[LionHeart777]

Christ in Linda,

First, as a former Protestant I was shocked to see how John 3:15 was interpreted from the beginning, and has been for 2,000 years. Please see here.

Second, you misunderstand what purgatory is in that it is not us “removing our own sins”, but rather the subjective application of Christ’s atonement to those who died in God’s friendship, but still have “wood”, “hay”, and “stubble” on their souls (1 Cor. 3:15)

Faith and works are a different conversation altogether, but it is manifest that God, “…will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: [8] But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.” (Romans 2:6-8)

And, we are to “[7] Be not deceived, God is not mocked. [8] For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit, of the spirit shall reap life everlasting.” (Gal. 6:7-8)

Are we talking about “works of the law” or works done outside of a state of Grace by our own power, Heaven forbid! We are talking about works enabled to done by the Grace of God before we do each one, and which he has promised to reward, which includes eternal life (Romans 2:6-8, Gal. 6:7-8) It is because of His promise to reward our works not because God owes us something by the very virtue of us doing them. (Much of what I say here was said by Jimmy Akin as a guest on “The Bible Answer Man”)

But it seems we are speaking past each other.

(Scripture from DRBrg )

 

[steve_b]

The gospel is simple in nature. Jesus was approached by Nicodemus; a man who was considered ‘religious’ in his community and he knew, supposedly, God’s word and yet he heard something in Jesus’ teachings that made him question what he had been taught. He was a very wise man because he made the decision to seek further truth by going to see Jesus at night; probably didn’t want to ruin his facade and prestige he received in his community. He was blunt and asked Jesus what he must do to be saved and Jesus quickly responded and said he MUST be born again. Nicodemus was very confused and thought Jesus was speaking about a physcial birth and he asked Jesus how was he suppose to enter his mother’s womb again as an adult man. Jesus told Nicodemus that He was not speaking about a physcical birth but a new spiritual birth.

iow, he was to be baptised

CiL:

When God created Adam in His image, Adam was just lying there on the ground lifeless until God breathed into Adam and He became alive. It is our spirit that was identical to God; definitely not our bodies and soul.

Please explain what you mean by our spirit vs our soul

CiL:

Adam’s spirit wa perfect, sinless and holy and was able to commune with a holy God in the cool of the day.After Adam messed up and yielded to the lies of Satan, that communication changed because a holy God cannot be in the presence of anyone unholy.

you’re making a distinction between our spirit and our soul?

CiL:

Remember,

[snip] for space

Jesus, the Author and finisher of our faith paid the price for us all and if we reject Him; there is no other name under heaven in which we can be saved; He is the only way to the Father. Those who reject Him as the full payment of their sins have no other alternative. Those who accept Him, by faith, will enter into the presence of Almighty God; forever; just like the thief on the cross who acceptd Jesus and was rewarded by Jesus by spending eternity with Him; beginning that very day of his death.

With all due respect, given what the thief actually did and went through, that’s a hugely reductionist & simplistic view.
C:

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; and I will not remember your sins.

That’s a summary statement. It presumes one has done everyrthing required leading up to that summary.

CiL:

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.

Yes another summary statement. I’d like to draw your attention to the following. Hebrews 10:26-27 please read the section surrounding this selection, to see the context. When you do that I’d like to make a few points.

CiL:

Jeremiah 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor , and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their inquity, and their sin I will remember no more.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD, though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shll be as wool.

Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far has **He removed **our transgressions from us

All summary passages. Summaries don’t happen until what’s required for the summary is done.

CiL:

Note, it is Him that has removed our sin; we cannot remove our own sins because we are unrighteous to begin with and we need Someone who is righteous to take ouy place; an Advocate, and His name is Jesus Christ.

Purgatory isn’t something we do, it is a process done to us by Jesus.

CiL:

Jesus Himself put it this way:

John 3:16 For God so loved the whole world that He GAVE His only begotten Son, that whosoever **believes in Him **should not perish but have everlasting life.

We MUST humble ourselves and accept His perfect sacrifice and just say a continual “thank you” for loving us unconditionally and becoming our substitute payment. There is NO greater love! . . .why would anyone reject such a precious Savior?

You’re not addressing the topic.

1 Cor 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13* each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15* If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

When does this (the Day) happen?