Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

[Evan]

Question 414 of the Baltimore catechism states:

Purgatory is a state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.

Some here have opined that time will not be in play after death, I disagree, **as the prayers for indulgences used to have a number of days attached to them **(I know the nomenclature now is “partial” or “plenary” – but this makes no difference, as the four last things have not changed just because we refer to them in a different manner).

The days attached had nothing to do with time in purgatory, It was the equivalent of time spent here, on earth, doing penance. So time spent thoughtfully reading your bible may be equivalent to a pilgrimage to the holy land that may take months.

 

[Gidge]

The days attached had nothing to do with time in purgatory, It was the equivalent of time spent here, on earth, doing penance. So time spent thoughtfully reading your bible may be equivalent to a pilgrimage to the holy land that may take months.

What is your source for this assertion ?

It would be great if this is the way it works, but the lives and legends of the saints seem to point in the opposite direction (I believe that this is due to the degree of suffering in Purgatory, where 15 minutes *feels like *many years).

 

[Evan]

What is your source for this assertion ?

It would be great if this is the way it works, but the lives and legends of the saints seem to point in the opposite direction (I believe that this is due to the degree of suffering in Purgatory, where 15 minutes *feels like *many years).

Common knowledge.

Look at the history of penance.
At one time a penance might be:
5 years as a weeper (standing at the door of the church desiring to be readmitted)
5 years as a listener (entering the church for mass, but still unable to receive the eucharist)

So an indulgences could reduce this time.

From the catholic encyclopedia newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

To say that an indulgence of so many days or years is granted means that it cancels an amount of purgatorial punishment equivalent to that which would have been remitted, in the sight of God, by the performance of so many days or years of the ancient canonical penance. Here, evidently, the reckoning makes no claim to absolute exactness; it has only a relative value.

 

[Gidge]

Common knowledge.

Not so common, I would opine, as I’ve never heard indulgences explained this way.

The money statement from the link is here : “it has only a relative value” *

Yes, God can exercise His mercy and judgment however He sees fit, and I do not dispute this fact. I prefer that we Catholics play by the rules, rather than bank on an exception from them viz-a-viz indulgences.

• Have we not been warned about the dictatorship of relativism ?

amazon.com/Dictatorship-Relativism-The-Benedict-ebook/dp/B0055E6TOM

 

[pocohombre]

Question 414 of the Baltimore catechism states:

Purgatory is a state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.

Some here have opined that time will not be in play after death, I disagree, as the prayers for indulgences used to have a number of days attached to them (I know the nomenclature now is “partial” or “plenary” – but this makes no difference, as the four last things have not changed just because we refer to them in a different manner).

Some have said a day is like a thousand years, well, according to the book I suggested (based on the lives and legends of the saints) it seems that the opposite is true.

Granted, we are not bound to accept (non-dogmatically-defined) private revelations – but one of the stories from the book stands out in my mind. There was a lay brother who died and asked a priest to say a Mass for the repose of his soul on his deathbed. The lay brother appeared to the priest after he had said the Mass, and the soul of the lay brother was admitted into Heaven and thanked him, asking why he waited so long (a number of years) to offer Mass for the lay brother’s soul ? The priest told the apparition of the lay brother (now a saint in Heaven) that he said the Mass within 15 minutes of the lay brother’s passing.

Actually a day is as a thousand and a thousand as a day,I think it says.

 

[JanetF]

Barry, do you realize that you put a lot of emphasis on believing what is written in a book that is never explicitly mentioned in that book, i.e., BIBLE?

Nor does the Bible say anywhere that the word of God is the only source. Catholics believe in the Scripture, Oral Tradition, and what has been taught to us by the Church who cannot lie and is guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[dandy1822]

Well then can you explain then why, if one is already in Heaven, he is still going to be resurrected and judged on the last day. Judgment Day. For even in the Nicene Creed, all Catholics profess"We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.We Look for the Resurrection of the DEAD and the life of the world to come Amen

and it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot
of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and elijah went up by a whirlwind
into HEAVEN - kings 2:11
although i have heard different theries about this some do think we will have to await the
coming of christ and some think some could have been taken directly to heaven from death.
when jesus was on the cross one of the robbers said to him - “lord remember me when thou
comest into thy kingdom” and jesus said to him “verily i say unto thee , today shalt thou be
with me in paradise”
i do agree with you on the issue of purgatory as i have not read real evidence of this.

 

[MJCamp]

St. Faustina’s testimony of purgatory from her diary

hicatholicmom.blogspot.com/2008/11/st-faustinas-vision-of-purgatory.html?m=1

 

[pocohombre]

Barry, do you realize that you put a lot of emphasis on believing what is written in a book that is never explicitly mentioned in that book, i.e., BIBLE?

Nor does the Bible say anywhere that the word of God is the only source. Catholics believe in the Scripture, Oral Tradition, and what has been taught to us by the Church who cannot lie and is guided by the Holy Spirit.

And, she has not always taught the same thing. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that has clearly evolved .You may say the seed was there from the beginning, but not the teaching of today. Apparently the first churches did fine without today’s enlightenment and or further clarification on the matter.

 

[pocohombre]

St. Faustina’s testimony of purgatory from her diary

hicatholicmom.blogspot.com/2008/11/st-faustinas-vision-of-purgatory.html?m=1

Thank you. Just can’t buy it.Visions are fine, but I need some boundary to them. Even if they are real, they may not be of the Lord. The CC also is very careful in this area also giving boundaries using known doctrine ( of which this Faustina vision is fine,OK). Hopefully you respect my same attitude,of sticking to previous convictions to discern visions.

 

[fred_conty]

Purgatory would seem to me to be in part something to do with shedding all our bad habits and faults, those we know about and especially all those we don’t know about. It becomes very apparent what really sad shape we are in which we denied or refused to look into during our earthly life. Then all at once, all of that bad stuff is seen. And it must be shed.
All the attachments that we had we have to give up.

For instance, smoking. Think of how hard that would be to immediately have this habit to overcome. This attachment would have to be cut off with no lingering desires left behind.
How long will that take a person? And how hard would it be? (I know some deny smoking is wrong).

Now multiply that by all the attachments we had.

Then all those times we were angry or unkind thruout our life are shown to us.
This is followed by a litny of other regretful things we did thruout our life.

This is exactly why we need indulgences, the church’s merciful reduction of payment.
This is why we need to pray and do penance and to do chaity, to reduce this payment.
But also to do this for those who have gone before us, especially those we were close to.

Just my thoughts.​

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[JanetF]

And, she has not always taught the same thing. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that has clearly evolved .You may say the seed was there from the beginning, but not the teaching of today. Apparently the first churches did fine without today’s enlightenment and or further clarification on the matter.

The first churches did fine because they understood what Jesus was saying. The Church cannot tell an untruth. The teaching of “today” simply clarified for people what had long been believed and practices. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit the Church cannot teach anything that is not true!!!

 

[pocohombre]

The first churches did fine because they understood what Jesus was saying.

Part of me says “BINGO”. I would also say they did not stray past the fundamentals.Do you think they had rules on fasting, or rules on penance or believers who delayed baptism -catechumens,etc., etc. Were the early Christians wrong in believing the emminent return of Christ? Were they wrong in thinking, writing about “apocatastasis”, possible forerunner to purgatory ?

The teaching of “today” simply clarified for people what had long been believed and practices

I disagree.There was more than clarification.There was developement,evolving.I agree a “seed” was there but the plant has evolved by (name removed by moderator)uts from early fathers.Some said “this”, some said “that”. It took centuries for “this” to win and “that” to be anathema, all from the same seed of truth. And as I noted,the church did fine all along.

Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit the Church cannot teach anything that is not true!!!

Yes, understand the doctrine of infallibilty,formally decreed in 19th century by the Pope at that time.That is another topic.

 

[LionHeart777]

I will kind of sum up what I feel strong evidence of the existence of a post-mortem purification:

1. The Jewish roots of the existence of a post-mortem purification as evidenced by prayers and sacrifices for the departed (Evidenced in Sacred Scripture in 2 Maccabees 200 years or so B.C., and as found in the Jewish historian Josephus who attests to the practice in 1st century A.D. Palestine.
2. The universality of the belief (except for most Protestants) among Jews, Orthodox and Catholic Christians (together about 75% of the world’s Christians these latter two groups make up.)
3. The testimony of Sacred Scripture which I have given in this thread, and the various Patristic interpretations which cite the same Scriptures myself and others cited. Add to this Patristic testimony outside of the exegesis of the Scriptures that were given on this thread to our Protestant brothers and sister, examples of which can be found here.
4. We have Jimmy Akin’s logical argument based on two Biblical planks as he says (a la “Bible Answer Man” show as a guest)- I’ll paraphrase (with a bit of liberty perhaps)

a) Most of us still sinning at the end of this life*

b) No sin in Heaven

therefore, there must be a post-mortem purification

*I’m not including here those who die with mortal sin(s) on their soul that needed to be dealt with. They will be punished in Hell.

1. Finally, we have the authority of the Catholic Church headed by the Pope who was authorized by Christ to teach and is protected from teaching error on matters of faith & morals, as evidenced by Scripture and History. (Beyond the scope of this thread I realize.)

---

against this we have the private interpretations of a few of our Protestant brothers and sisters of a few Passages of Scripture (most if not all being unrelated to the topic), who give us these interpretations on their own authority.

 

[pocohombre]

I will kind of sum up what I feel strong evidence of the existence of a post-mortem purification:

1. The Jewish roots of the existence of a post-mortem purification as evidenced by prayers and sacrifices for the departed (Evidenced in Sacred Scripture in 2 Maccabees 200 years or so B.C., and as found in the Jewish historian Josephus who attests to the practice in 1st century A.D. Palestine.

My understanding is that for the most part Jews did not nor do they today pray for the dead,especially for their specific “alleviation”. That they commemorate a recently deceased with praises to God(Kaddish),never mentioning death, is a stretch that they “pray FOR the dead”. Josephus apparently never said it either, though some have tried to say that he did.You do not find it in the Hebrew bible.

1. The universality of the belief (except for most Protestants) among Jews, Orthodox and Catholic Christians (together about 75% of the world’s Christians these latter two groups make up.)

It is universal only in Roman Catholicism and perhaps one or two other small denominations. The Jews and Orthodox do not believe in the Latin purgatory.

1. The testimony of Sacred Scripture which I have given in this thread, and the various Patristic interpretations which cite the same Scriptures myself and others cited. Add to this Patristic testimony outside of the exegesis of the Scriptures that were given on this thread to our Protestant brothers and sister, examples of which can be found here.

Yes, thank you. Scriptures were also given to the contrary, as well as that there was wide range of opinion on the matter by early fathers. It is interesting that the East with better understanding of Greek could not agree to Latin (West) interpretations of the several proposed interpretations.

1. We have Jimmy Akin’s logical argument based on two Biblical planks as he says (a la “Bible Answer Man” show as a guest)- I’ll paraphrase (with a bit of liberty perhaps)

a) Most of us still sinning at the end of this life*

b) No sin in Heaven

therefore, there must be a post-mortem purification

No one is denying purification, just some of the doctrines surrounding it.

1. Finally, we have the authority of the Catholic Church headed by the Pope who was authorized by Christ to teach and is protected from teaching error on matters of faith & morals, as evidenced by Scripture and History. (Beyond the scope of this thread I realize.)

All are authorized to protect and discern God’s truth. However, one can not rebut a Catholic’s own view of infallibility in Her except that that is a Catholic doctrine for Catholics.An outsider can only say for centuries Popes did not define purgatorial matters, or at least that differing views were allowed.To me the further you get away from the apostles for a final doctrinal decree, the more challenging it is to say ,“It is apostolic”. Not that it can’t happen ,as in the trinity defining,with it’s many ,many scriptural supports,just that it is more difficult, especially with limited scriptural support.

---

against this we have the private interpretations of a few of our Protestant brothers and sisters of a few Passages of Scripture (most if not all being unrelated to the topic), who give us these interpretations on their own authority.

From what I have read, much has been said on the topic since the early church, and much has been labeled as being private interpretation by the fathers themselves(even one against the other), and it was allowed, for a time. It is only natural to call the opposing views as private,or man-made because thankfully we want to believe in the right,Godly interpretation. Finally,we all want absolute Truth. To say it only rests on one “authority” or definition thereof is relative in itself, at least making it “conditional”.

 

[LionHeart777]

My understanding is that for the most part Jews did not nor do they today pray for the dead,especially for their specific “alleviation”. That they commemorate a recently deceased with praises to God(Kaddish),never mentioning death, is a stretch that they “pray FOR the dead”. Josephus apparently never said it either, though some have tried to say that he did.You do not find it in the Hebrew bible.

I told you of my two early Jewish sources, now I’ll give them to you:

2 Maccabees 12:39-46

“39 Next day, with Judas at their head, they went back to recover the bodies of the slain, for burial among their own folk in their fathers’ graves; 40 and what found they? Each of the fallen was wearing, under his shirt, some token carried away from the false gods of Jamnia. Here was defiance of the Jewish law, and none doubted it was the cause of their undoing; 41 none but praised the Lord for his just retribution, that had brought hidden things to light; 42 and so they fell to prayer, pleading that the sin might go unremembered. Judas himself, their gallant commander, gave public warning to his men, of fault they should evermore keep clear, with the fate of these transgressors under their eyes. 43 Then he would have contribution made; a sum of twelve thousand silver pieces he levied, and sent it to Jerusalem, to have sacrifice made there for the guilt of their dead companions. Was not this well done and piously? Here was a man kept the resurrection ever in mind; 44 he had done fondly and foolishly indeed, to pray for the dead, if these might rise no more, that once were fallen! 45 And these had made a godly end; could he doubt, a rich recompense awaited them? 46 A holy and wholesome thought it is to pray for the dead, for their guilt’s undoing.”

Source: newadvent.org/bible/2ma012.htm#vrs43

Here is Josephus from my copy of “The Jewish War”, Williamson, G.A. Smallwood, E. Mary, Penguin Books, New York, NY: 1981. Pgs. 46-47 , (emphasis mine)

“While the Romans were suffering severely Pompey was amazed at the unshakeable endurance of the Jews, especially their maintenance of all the religious ceremonies in the midst of a storm of missiles. Just as if deep peace enfolded the City [Jerusalem] the daily sacrifices, offerings for the dead, and every other act of worship were meticulously carried out to the glory of God.”

I was a bit off in my date, Josephus is was writing of Pompey, this was just before the 1st century A.D. (1st century B.C..)

Regarding more current Jewish custom, from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

“…The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: “In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: ‘I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried’ [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, ‘He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again’” (I Sam. ii. 6). …”

Source: jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12446-purgatory

Please check out the rest of that article in the Jewish Encyclopedia too. Yes, the Mourner’s Kiddish is also evidence for a post-mortem purification

Continued…

 

[LionHeart777]

Continued…

It is universal only in Roman Catholicism and perhaps one or two other small denominations. The Jews and Orthodox do not believe in the Latin purgatory.
Yes, thank you.

I am specifically talking about a post-mortem purification and not arguing that the understanding is identical to the Catholic concept of purgatory

Scriptures were also given to the contrary,

None of these disprove Purgatory or the more general post mortem purification

as well as that there was wide range of opinion on the matter by early fathers.

None deny a post mortem purification to my knowledge.

It is interesting that the East with better understanding of Greek could not agree to Latin (West) interpretations of the several proposed interpretations.

I am unaware of any debate on the matter in the first Millennium. I am only aware of St. John Chrysostom’s exegesis of 1 Corinthians 3:15, do you know of any other related passages from the Father’s commenting on the verses I cited? Also, this allegation of an alleged language deficiency among the Latins is just that; an allegation (albeit maybe I’m not being fair and it is only an apparent allegation )

No one is denying purification, just some of the doctrines surrounding it.

Well if you are not denying a post mortem purification of the soul then we are closer than I thought perhaps. I don’t suspect Christ in Linda is quite there yet but we haven’t had much of a dialogue–I understand she had a lot to respond to in her defense.

All are authorized to protect and discern God’s truth. However, one can not rebut a Catholic’s own view of infallibility in Her except that that is a Catholic doctrine for Catholics.An outsider can only say for centuries Popes did not define purgatorial matters, or at least that differing views were allowed.To me the further you get away from the apostles for a final doctrinal decree, the more challenging it is to say ,“It is apostolic”. Not that it can’t happen ,as in the trinity defining,with it’s many ,many scriptural supports,just that it is more difficult, especially with limited scriptural support.

This one I didn’t really expect to dialogue on as it’s beyond the scope of the conversation (I realize I brought it up though!) We obviously disagree inasmuch as your view differs from Catholic teaching.

From what I have read, much has been said on the topic since the early church, and much has been labeled as being private interpretation by the fathers themselves(even one against the other), and it was allowed, for a time.

What I perhaps meant to get at more was that the testimony of the Fathers (and of the Catholic Church I would argue) is weightier than yours (and mine by itself).

You and I have no authority, I would argue.

It is only natural to call the opposing views as private,or man-made because thankfully we want to believe in the right,Godly interpretation. Finally,we all want absolute Truth. To say it only rests on one “authority” or definition thereof is relative in itself, at least making it “conditional”.

The question of authority is where we definitely differ… Amen to all of us wanting the absolute truth! I don’t think either of us are out to dupe each other

Anyway, regarding Purgatory (as opposed to a more vague post-mortem purification), you are probably aware that, according to Catholic teaching, “there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. [And that o]ther ideas, such that purgatory is a particular ‘place’ in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.” (Source: catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory)

Peace,

Nick

 

[pocohombre]

told you of my two early Jewish sources, now I’ll give them to you:
2 Maccabees 12:39-46

You are making me dig, thank you. Here is a site I found dealing with Mac-It seems it is talking of resurrection not purgatory. Resurrection for those fallen soldiers who were idolators, perhaps dying in mortal sin. It also seems prayer for the dead was not practiced yet by Jews at time of writing Macc.Here is a quote and the site- aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3167 “Overall, even though disagreeing with Hayes as to the positive origin and affirming development of Purgatory, there was something fundamentally more honest in reading his analysis as compared to the Catholic apologists cited above. Hayes seems to realize that simply assuming the conclusion of what one wants to prove Biblically becomes tenuous in light of history. For Hayes(Catholic theologian), elements of Purgatory are found in 2 Maccabees 12, but as to purgatory proper, it was the result of development begun at the level of popular piety. For Catholic apologists, the text simply means purgatory.These are two very different approaches”.

Source: newadvent.org/bible/2ma012.htm#vrs43
Here is Josephus from my copy of “The Jewish War”, Williamson, G.A. Smallwood, E. Mary, Penguin Books, New York, NY: 1981. Pgs. 46-47 , (emphasis mine)
“While the Romans were suffering severely Pompey was amazed at the unshakeable endurance of the Jews, especially their maintenance of all the religious ceremonies in the midst of a storm of missiles. Just as if deep peace enfolded the City [Jerusalem] the daily sacrifices, offerings for the dead, and every other act of worship were meticulously carried out to the glory of God.”

Again, not sure if this translation of Josephus is correct-it may be_ but it may be like Macc,praying for resurrection,not to get out of purgatory .

Regarding more current Jewish custom, from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

Yes the article sites the Shammaites talking of purgatory and states the other group(s) as opposed to the idea .Also this group (religious school/think tank) began in first century.I did state earlier you might find some segment of Judaism talking of purging,as some segments of christianity do today. However it seems for the most part, and for most of their history, Jews do not hold to it (purgatory) .

 

[dandy1822]

Yes, Jesus died for our sins. We have been forgiven but our sinful nature remains. That sinful nature makes us “unclean”. We still have an inclination to sin and the bible says that nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Yes, very Catholic. We can not be saved without Christ’s resurrection.

You misunderstand Catholic teaching. Christ’s resurrection is necessary for our salvation. We agree on that completely. We are cleansed of our sins…he has wipes them away…but we still have a sinful nature. Christ’s death on the cross did not remove our sinful nature and we can not enter heaven with a sinful nature, We must be cleansed as through fire of this sinful nature. That is what scripture says. What do you call this cleansing process? Catholics call it purgatory.

Lots of scripture on purgatory…read here

we call it been baptized and been cleansed by recieving the holy spirit {on earth]

 

[BarryI]

Question 414 of the Baltimore catechism states:

Purgatory is a state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.

Some here have opined that time will not be in play after death, I disagree, as the prayers for indulgences used to have a number of days attached to them (I know the nomenclature now is “partial” or “plenary” – but this makes no difference, as the four last things have not changed just because we refer to them in a different manner).

Some have said a day is like a thousand years, well, according to the book I suggested (based on the lives and legends of the saints) it seems that the opposite is true.

Granted, we are not bound to accept (non-dogmatically-defined) private revelations – but one of the stories from the book stands out in my mind. There was a lay brother who died and asked a priest to say a Mass for the repose of his soul on his deathbed. The lay brother appeared to the priest after he had said the Mass, and the soul of the lay brother was admitted into Heaven and thanked him, asking why he waited so long (a number of years) to offer Mass for the lay brother’s soul ? The priest told the apparition of the lay brother (now a saint in Heaven) that he said the Mass within 15 minutes of the lay brother’s passing.

Can you ease clarify"satisfied for the punishment due to their sins". Once again. Is not death out payment for out sins? When God created Adam., He purposes him to live on the earth forever. Yes that’s right , forever. When they sinned., it was them that God told him to dust he shall return, and he shall labor the rest of his life. That was the penalty for sin , death. Still Is … Once you are dead , the body and mind that were sinning cease to exist and therefore cannot be punished. Which is why Jesus said " The hour is coming when all those in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, Those who have done righteous things to w eternal life, and those whose works were wicked, the eternal condemnation. .