Purgatory for Protestants?

[GKMotley]

Certainly does limit what one might think of as protestant, to say that as a binding stricture on the term.

Of course, I have a idiosyncratic concept of what constitutes protestant, myself. Don’t expect anyone to acquiesce to it, though.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I’ll just say, stuff on the internet needs to be vetted carefully. People get labeled as saying things they don’t say or what they do say is so re contextualized it doesn’t come close to what was actually said.

It does not seem to be a likely source for Fr. Pacwa. I am still confused, if it was a duel, why would there be any punishment? And if he did enter the monastery out of guilt, why is that such a bad thing? People went to monasteries for all kinds of reasons. Not a few women for unwed pregnancies! He stayed, so his superiors must have determined he had a vocation somewhere along the way.

I didn’t start the question. I was responding to a charge attributed to Fr Pacwa. I showed a possible source of the charge.

 

[lanman87]

I hate to jump into someone else’s conversation… but…

For what it is worth, my Protestant/Evangelical church has bibles in the pews(actually chairs) and every week we tell the congregation that if you don’t have a Bible you are welcome to take one as our gift to you. The Pew Bibles are ESV, which is what we generally use during worship. However, from time to time other versions are used for Scripture reading during the service. We even read part of Isaiah 53 in the Good New Bible paraphrase as part of our Easter service yesterday.

Most Evangelical Churches primarily use whatever version the Pastor normally preaches from during the worship service. I’ve been in churches where this is NIV, ESV, NASB, and NKJV. Also, churches have a choice about what version the Sunday School material will use. I know at Lifeway (Baptist Books stores) You can get the same Sunday School books with either KJV, NKJV, or HCSB. I’m not 100% certain but I seem to remember NIV and ESV versions of the Sunday School books as well.

Granted, 40 or 50 years ago almost all Evangelical Churches used the KJV exclusively. Since that time many really good English Translations have been made available.

 

[steve-b]

lilypadrees:

To not preach and teach the KJV during a Protestant church service is simply unthinkable.

Saying Protestants do this or believe that is almost without fail an inaccurate statement. Why? Because other than a loose General grouping, their is no Protestant Church.

Howdy Jon.

a very True statement

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

lilypadrees:

To not preach and teach the KJV during a Protestant church service is simply unthinkable.

Saying Protestants do this or believe that is almost without fail an inaccurate statement. Why? Because other than a loose General grouping, their is no Protestant Church.

Howdy Jon.

a very True statement

I wouldn’t argue the point. There are instead various (sadly too many) traditions within the one True Church

 

[bbbbbbb]

I was raised in a United Presbyterian church. They adopted the Revised Standard Translation as their official Bible as soon as it was produced in 1948.

 

[steido01]

Steve, you’re taking this from Beggars All. James Swan was reacting to what Pacwa said; he cannot be the source of Pacwa’s claim.

The 1995 book Swan referenced on his site is pretty much the only source that has ever made such an accusation against Luther. That book, as Swan notes, was written by a maxillofacial surgeon. Not exactly a theologian or historian. Furthermore, the point of that surgeon’s book was to retroactively diagnose Luther with various afflictions. Pseudoscience, at best; anti-Luther propaganda, at worst. And his source for claiming Luther killed another man? One single sentence in the second-hand Table Talks, interpreted in a way no one else ever had.

That Pacwa would repeat such a spurious claim demonstrates either a pre-existing anti-Luther bias, or ignorance of historical evidence. In either case, he is not to be considered an expert on Martin Luther.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

JonNC:

lilypadrees:

To not preach and teach the KJV during a Protestant church service is simply unthinkable.

Saying Protestants do this or believe that is almost without fail an inaccurate statement. Why? Because other than a loose General grouping, their is no Protestant Church.

Howdy Jon.

a very True statement

I wouldn’t argue the point. There are instead various (sadly too many) traditions within outside the one True Church

And sadly too many willing to defend ALL THOSE TRADITIONS outside the one True Church.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

steve-b:

JonNC:

lilypadrees:

To not preach and teach the KJV during a Protestant church service is simply unthinkable.

Saying Protestants do this or believe that is almost without fail an inaccurate statement. Why? Because other than a loose General grouping, their is no Protestant Church.

Howdy Jon.

a very True statement

I wouldn’t argue the point. There are instead various (sadly too many) traditions within outside the one True Church

And sadly too many willing to defend ALL THOSE TRADITIONS outside the one True Church.

Sadly, you and me and all of us.

 

[steve-b]

Steve, you’re taking this from Beggars All. James Swan was reacting to what Pacwa said; he cannot be the source of Pacwa’s claim.

The 1995 book Swan referenced on his site is pretty much the only source that has ever made such an accusation against Luther. That book, as Swan notes, was written by a maxillofacial surgeon. Not exactly a theologian or historian. Furthermore, the point of that surgeon’s book was to retroactively diagnose Luther with various afflictions. Pseudoscience, at best; anti-Luther propaganda, at worst. And his source for claiming Luther killed another man? One single sentence in the second-hand Table Talks, interpreted in a way no one else ever had.

That Pacwa would repeat such a spurious claim demonstrates either a pre-existing anti-Luther bias, or ignorance of historical evidence. In either case, he is not to be considered an expert on Martin Luther.

Swain was apparently pointing to the book that made the claim Luther was in a duel and killed his friend. The real question is, did Fr Pacwa really say what he is accused of saying?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

JonNC:

steve-b:

JonNC:

lilypadrees:

To not preach and teach the KJV during a Protestant church service is simply unthinkable.

Saying Protestants do this or believe that is almost without fail an inaccurate statement. Why? Because other than a loose General grouping, their is no Protestant Church.

Howdy Jon.

a very True statement

I wouldn’t argue the point. There are instead various (sadly too many) traditions within outside the one True Church

And sadly too many willing to defend ALL THOSE TRADITIONS outside the one True Church.

Sadly, you and me and all of us.

As you know, I don’t defend the divisions that happened.

 

[steido01]

Swain was apparently pointing to the book that made the claim Luther was in a duel and killed his friend.

Which he was only made aware of after hearing Pacwa’s strange claim. Goodness, I hope James is around to comment on this soon. The book is dubious enough. The author’s credentials are lacking. It cannot be considered reliable in any sense. It is an outlier.

The real question is, did Fr Pacwa really say what he is accused of saying?

No, and this is evidence we’ve gone too far down this rabbit hole. The root point was not a question, but a simple truth: one cannot determine factual history from a single, contemporary source – much less a single, contemporary source who cites dubious works by unqualified researchers with an ax to grind!

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Swain was apparently pointing to the book that made the claim Luther was in a duel and killed his friend.

Which he was only made aware of after hearing Pacwa’s strange claim. Goodness, I hope James is around to comment on this soon. The book is dubious enough. The author’s credentials are lacking. It cannot be considered reliable in any sense. It is an outlier.

The real question is, did Fr Pacwa really say what he is accused of saying?

No, and this is evidence we’ve gone too far down this rabbit hole. The root point was not a question, but a simple truth: one cannot determine factual history from a single, contemporary source – much less a single, contemporary source who cites dubious works by unqualified researchers with an ax to grind!

I think we’re saying the same thing, just saying it differently

 

[steido01]

Then count me relieved to re-read your post in that light.

I hope others in this thread consider reading multiple reputable sources for historical fact, rather than simply accepting one person’s word because it fits their narrative.

 

[lilypadrees]

lilypadrees:

To not preach and teach the KJV during a Protestant church service is simply unthinkable.

Which Protestant Churches? Or better, please be specific about the communion?
In the 60 years I was Lutheran, I never saw the KJV used. So, either your statement is wrong or you don’t consider Lutherans Protestant.
Saying Protestants do this or believe that is almost without fail an inaccurate statement. Why? Because other than a loose General grouping, their is no Protestant Church.

Good grief, JonNC! All of the Protestant churches. Lutherans were the first Protestants. The father of Protestantism is Martin Luther.

As for their communion, I never took part in it. So I can’t answer that question.

 

[jtavington]

And yet you have been told repeatedly that plenty of English-speaking Protestants use other translations.

 

[Pup7]

Technically speaking, I’m not sure that Anglicans, Methodists, and Episcopalians are strictly Protestant. They didn’t grow out of the Reformation. They grew out of the split under Henry VIII.

I noticed that last night on the CNN miniseries on the Pope, in their “family tree” of the Catholic Church, they split the Anglicans and their descendants off from Protestantism as a whole and didn’t branch them under the Protestant Reformation.

Maybe someone with a lot more knowledge can clarify that for me. Is the strictest definition of “Protestant” one that specifies having been born of the Luther-driven Reformation, or just someone who disagrees with/split from Catholicism? I’ve always heard and understood it to be more the former. Because then technically the Easterns are essentially Protestant, are they not?

Serious question. It’s confused me for a while and if someone has flat out defined it, I missed that post.

 

[steve-b]

Technically speaking, I’m not sure that Anglicans, Methodists, and Episcopalians are strictly Protestant. They didn’t grow out of the Reformation. They grew out of the split under Henry VIII.

I noticed that last night on the CNN miniseries on the Pope, in their “family tree” of the Catholic Church, they split the Anglicans and their descendants off from Protestantism as a whole and didn’t branch them under the Protestant Reformation.

Maybe someone with a lot more knowledge can clarify that for me. Is the strictest definition of “Protestant” one that specifies having been born of the Luther-driven Reformation, or just someone who disagrees with/split from Catholicism? I’ve always heard and understood it to be more the former. Because then technically the Easterns are essentially Protestant, are they not?

Serious question. It’s confused me for a while and if someone has flat out defined it, I missed that post.

Did I by chance, see a change in your profile after Sunday?

 

[SnowRose]

To not preach and teach the KJV during a Protestant church service is simply unthinkable.

Which Protestant Churches? Or better, please be specific about the communion?

In the 60 years I was Lutheran, I never saw the KJV used. So, either your statement is wrong or you don’t consider Lutherans Protestant.

Saying Protestants do this or believe that is almost without fail an inaccurate statement. Why? Because other than a loose General grouping, their is no Protestant Church.

Good grief, JonNC! All of the Protestant churches. Lutherans were the first Protestants. The father of Protestantism is Martin Luther.

We just went through multiple posts in this thread proving that Lutherans do not use KJV worldwide and only used to temporarily in the US, the Anglicans use whatever, so do the Methodists and the Presbyterians. Several Protestants and ex-Protestants have reported this from their perspective.
That’s four fairly large mainline Protestant denominations not using the KJV at all or only in combination with other translations.

To still claim all Protestants use the KJV and that anything else is unthinkable makes it seem like we were all speaking to deaf ears.

 

[Pup7]

You did indeed.

It was the first thing I did before finally getting to bed.

I’m enjoying the word “they” in relation to “everyone else”.