And as you know, neither do I.
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steve-b
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You did indeed.
It was the first thing I did before finally getting to bed.
I’m enjoying the word “they” in relation to “everyone else”.
Then your statement about Protestant churches using the KJV, posted again below, in incorrect.
Until I became continuing Anglican, I never, in over 60 years, saw a Lutheran Mass, Matins, or Vespers using the KJV.To not preach and teach the KJV during a Protestant church service is simply unthinkable.
I saw RSV, NIV, and ESV. The first bible I owned was RSV. I own an ESV with the DCs, a copy of Luther’s Die Bibel, an NKJV, a paraphrase from college days known as “The Way”, and a copy the KJV.
As for Luther being the “Father of Protestantism “, that is more a comment about chronology, not leadership. Most communions commonly known as Protestant have very little in common with Luther, particularly regarding the sacraments.
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gmontemayor
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I recommend you read the book “Purgatory Illustrated by the Lives and Legends of the Saints”
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mcq72
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not sure where I posted contrary to CC view.
What judgement ? upon death? after the resurrection ?, judgement seat of Christ? White Throne judgement ?
And yes agree it is for all disciples, this judgement
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guanophore
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I know the traditional date of 1517 at the publication of the 95 Theses is customary, but he was really not the first protestant. What was different was that the political, economic and social conditions came together around Luther’s time so that efforts to annihilate protesters did not work.
The Albigensians and Waldensians among these movements.
John Wycliffe and William Tyndale did the same things that Luther did, but the Church was able to squash these movements before they became widespread. All of these were “Protestants” before Luther.
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mcq72
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yes, but that is not what is referred to as that great great “Day” (when we die).
But yes, immediately upon death we are sent to “final destination”…“to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”…Paul was not boasting, but seems to write that as a general rule, a rule to be applied to all disciples, as comforting etc…he did not say that because he was super holy and without unconfessed sin or "unpaid’ for and super ready, already purged more than most believers…but yes , upon death it is either hell or purgatory/heaven per CC.
It seems to me that there are more judgement s in store, when the books are opened up…is this not that great Day ? it does not determine final destination, but it seems rewards are given for believers, and some say just before we begin to rule with Christ, that these may be positions where we exercise authority in His kingdom.
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guanophore
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It boils down to authority, which Henry VIII took to himself. After that, doctrinal changes began, apostolic succession was lost, valid sacraments lost or denied, and continued fruit of the Reformation, which has been division.
I do agree that the branch of the split that emanated from the church taken over by Henry VIII has more in common than those splits that began with Luther, the departure from Apostolic doctrine continues to occur, so that these two cousins are now closer to each other than either of them are to Rome.
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Pup7
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Would you say the printing press helped Luther?
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guanophore
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I think, were it not for the printing press, he may have gone the way of all the others!
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steve-b
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Re: that phrase. It’s often misquotedsteve-b:
yes, but that is not what is referred to as that great great “Day” (when we die).
But yes, immediately upon death we are sent to “final destination”…"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"…Paul was not boasting, but seems to write that as a general rule, a rule to be applied to all disciples, as comforting etc…he did not say that because he was super holy and without unconfessed sin or "unpaid’ for and super ready, already purged more than most believers…but yes , upon death it is either hell or purgatory/heaven per CC.
2 Cor 5:
“6 So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.”
To which one would naturally say, yeah who wouldn’t
But it’s not a forgone conclusion that to be absent from the body is to automatically be with the Lord for everybody. after judgement
The final judgement doesn’t change the particular judgement that occurs when we die.
Quick explanation
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mcq72
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thank you for correction, yet Paul does not mention any other option for "we’’ the christian…he mentions the “preference”, not as apart from hell or even purgatory,but explicitly from life in this current body.
no, but the particulars of the final judgement, that Paul references, sounds a lot like a purging, or what some make case for purgatory.
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steve-b
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Paul for sure is making a distinction. Since Paul isn’t talking to pagans, and only writing to people “in the Church”, we know by his writings, and his admonishments, that not all of those he writes to are living the faith. So Paul DOES mention options just not in the passage we’re talking about. For him to say we would rather be with the Lord, is a hopeful sentiment, but not a forgone conclusion for EVERYONE.steve-b:
thank you for correction, yet Paul does not mention any other option for "we’’ the christian…he mentions the “preference”, not as apart from hell or even purgatory,but explicitly from life in this current body.
For those who die without mortal sin on their soul, that’s true.
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Likely, but eventually someone would have come along because of the nature of the Church in EuropePup7:
I think, were it not for the printing press, he may have gone the way of all the others!
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Pup7
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I agree. I think Luther had nothing short of serendipity on his side.
As they say, timing was on his side.
As they say, timing was on his side.
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Oh, it was more than that. There was real corruption. And there was a sincerity on Luther’s part that rang true with many.
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Pup7
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I know that. I’m not a scholar of the Reformation but I know the gist of what was going on at the time.
I’m talking about in terms of it being Luther who led the Reformation over someone else at some other time.
He was the right guy in the right place at the right time.
I’m talking about in terms of it being Luther who led the Reformation over someone else at some other time.
He was the right guy in the right place at the right time.
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mcq72
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Correct, but dont think he mentions any other place for a believer (such as purgatory…for it is not a place nor may even be in time).But for sure he .mentions a judging
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mcq72
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Perhaps, but I am more familiar with the distinction of believers /non believers or those who blaspheme H.G.
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steve-b
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While the name is not there, the reality is. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians.steve-b:
Correct, but dont think he mentions any other place for a believer (such as purgatory…for it is not a place nor may even be in time).But for sure he .mentions a judging
1 Cor 3:
13 “each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
The “Day” is the day one dies.
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