Purgatory**HELP!**

[praise_Him]

sorry made a typo in last post and the edit button seemed to have vanished

praise Him wrote

“If we look at the Greek word for martyr in verse 1 it is martus which means a witness or a martyr.”

This should read… If we look at the greek word for witnesses in verse 1 it is martus which means a witness or a martyr.

Thanks and God bless!

 

[Church_Militant]

There is 1 problem Ecc. isn’t the only verses concerning this doctrine. there are numerous others as seen in earl;ier posts here are just a couple

“Job 14:12 So man when he is fallen asleep shall not rise again; till the heavens be broken, he shall not awake, nor rise up out of his sleep”.

"Psa 115:17 The dead shall not praise thee, O Lord: nor any of them that go down to hell. "

The word “hell” in these verses comes from the hebrew word sheol which if we look up it up means “the grave”
When dead we can’t love,hate,work,reason,have wisdom,knowledge nor can we praise God. Nor can we suffer in purgatory!

“Psa 146:4 His spirit shall go forth, and he shall return into his earth: in that day all their thoughts shall perish.”

I do find soul sleep taught in the OT as well as in the NT by our Lord Himself No you don’t, and especially not in the OT. It’s just not there…as even your “proof texts” show.

Either way…your texts only prove the same thing that I said all along. The OT Jews and even modern Jews today…do not believe in a resurrection of the dead.

Joh 11:12 His disciples therefore said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

Not what it was talking about. They. like most people assumed that he was resting and sleeping to regain his strength. It’s plain that that is what that verse means.

Joh 11:13 But Jesus spoke of his death: and they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead. "

And it’s quite plain that you have forced your own errant interpretation onto this passage instead of following what the verses actually say.

Here Christ taught explicitly that death was sleep.
"Mat 9:24 He said: Give place, for the girl is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. "

A complete misstatement as to what the Lord was saying. The fact is that He had already raised her and that all he had to do was awaken her. I’ve always known that from that passage.

"Mar 5:39
Mar 5:40 "Luk 8:52-55

Same passage…same error.

“Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed.
Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth: and the truth shall make you free.”
Brothers and sisters I want to follow Christ’s teachings how about you?

Not believing errors like you are teaching.

What about Hebrews 12:1 (and Hebrews 11) Who are the witnesses in the context of this passage? They were people of great faith as well as martyrs. If we look at the Greek word for martyr in verse 1 it is martus which means a witness or a martyr. But it can easily be seen just from the context of the previous verses that this is referring to people of faith and people that were martyred as Paul exhorts us that our trials should be set aside in the light of the severe trials others suffered for Jesus sake!

Am I the only one who sees the twisted interpretation that is being foisted on us here? In fact, as you look over these passages you quickly see that they have nothing to do with this topic and are in fact being yanked all out of context to try to help this poster’s case.

It was actually only the Sadducee’s that did not believe in the resurrection in the OT the pharisees DID believe in the resurrection and we can see that Christ rebuked them for that belief and explicitly refuted this belief that they held!

Yeah but the vast majority of Jews followed the Sadducee’s teachings and still do today. My point is that based on the OT alone (what is that called “Sola Old Testamentum”?) one comes away with the idea that there is no resurrection. Why? Be cause the authors that wrote it did not understand that.

I want no part of any religion that requires the mental and theological gymnastics that your apparently does…only to arrive at errors in doctrine.

 

[praise_Him]

Luk 8:52 And all wept and mourned for her. But he said: Weep not. The maid is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

Brother I am seeing alot of opinion but no scripture in your posts. You are using alot of eisogesis. I have posted scripture after scripture after scripture disproving the catholic postion on the state of the dead. I am truly sorry you are to close minded to even look at scripture. How many are you going to lead astray from scripture by being closed minded and blind?
Our Lord clearly taught soul sleep and was laughed to scorn for teaching it

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Church_Militant]

You really should get a job as a cherry harvester PH…you cherry-pick scripture like mad.

I’m not close minded…I probably know the Word of God better than you do on my bad days. I also know what it says and the verses that you are handing out like breath mints do not support what you are teaching.
**
There is no soul sleep.**

Here’s a great case in point.
Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: 2 And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. 3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him. and then Luke 9:28 And it came to pass about eight days after these words, that he took Peter, and James, and John, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And whilst he prayed, the shape of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became white and glittering. 30 And behold two men were talking with him. And they were Moses and Elias,

31 Appearing in majesty. And they spoke of his decease that he should accomplish in Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep. And waking, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. 33 And it came to pass, that as they were departing from him, Peter saith to Jesus: Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias; not knowing what he said. 34 And as he spoke these things, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them; and they were afraid, when they entered into the cloud. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son; hear him.

Some “soul -sleep” for these two huh? If they were “soul sleeping” then just how would they have known about all the things that they discussed with Our Lord? According to your errant preaching they are asleep and unaware of everything, yet this event from the gospels proves you dead wrong.

Hebrews 12:1 also disproves your error because it plainly tells us that the people in question (the sainted dead) are witnesses to the race that we run. 1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us: How could “soul-sleepers” be witnesses of anything? They can’t, and since your fallible interpretation does not line up with what the Word of God actually says that proves again that you are dead wrong.

You wanted scripture…here ya go!

There is ample evidence that the Bible implicitly teaches a Purgatory.

Begin with Matthew 12:32, which says, “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Now think this through…There is no sin to forgive in heaven, right? Sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and permanent. So…Implicit “purgatory”

1st Corinthians 3:15 which says, “If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” Again this cannot refer to heaven or hell for the same reasons as above. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.

1st Peter 3:18-20 which says, “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.”

and 1st Peter 4:6 which says, “For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit” Note that it was a prison for disobedient spirits and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them.

2nd Maccabees 12:44-46 which says, "44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. "
The same reasons apply here as to the first passages I gave you…

 

[Church_Militant]

and 1st Peter 4:6

which says, “For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit” Note that it was a prison for disobedient spirits and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them. BTW…How could Our Lord have preached to soul-sleeping disobedient spirits? You have to be awake and aware to hear preaching.

 

[NonDenom]

[sign]Question: “What does the Bible say about Purgatory?”[/sign]
Edited By Moderator as per Forum Rules. (© Copyright 2002-2007 Got Questions Ministries. All Rights Reserved.)

Hi All
After reading scripture on this, I don’t know how anyone can believe in purgatory. The church used purgatory to collect money from it’s people wanting their loved ones who had died, to get out.
A friend of mine’s sister PAID $300 to her church to have them dedicate 10 masses to her Husband who had died a year ago from suiside. She thought he was purgatory since he had killed himself. Christ’s sacrifice WAS and IS sufficiant for us.
In Him and Him Only

 

[drafdog]

Read the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed. There is no mention of Purgatory. We are not compelled to believe in it. It is a comforting concept, but it still falls under the heading of speculative theology. It also ignores the idea that after death we are no longer in physical existence and are no longer constrained by the attributes of matter (space, mass, time, etc.).
On the concept of temporal punishment, let me tell you a story.
A young man in his early thirties called up his mother. In the course of the conversation he said, “I was a rotten kid.” To which his mother replied, “No, you weren’t.”
“I used to push push your buttons all the time to see how far I could go before you got mad.”
“I know. But you weren’t a rotten kid. We loved you.”
So much for punishment.

Matthew

 

[Eileen_T]

Well, considering that this is a Catholic forum, we are not restricted to the Bible Alone as the Church recognises and treasures the writings of the Early Church fathers who received their understanding of Scripture from the Apostles and those who had been directly taught by them.

Historical evidence is clear. The Early Church Fathers believed in purgatory and prayers for the dead. This is seen not only in their writings but in the “graffiti” in the hundreds of miles of catacombs where the early Christians gathered and hid from Roman persecution.

The Early (and Apostolic) Church Fathers wrote to communities, to instruct them in the meaning of Scripture. When the ‘Reformers’ rejected the Authority of the Church fifteen hundred years after she had been founded by Christ, they found that they also had to jettison the writings of the Early Fathers (except for bits and pieces taken out of context) and the teachings of the early Church councils.

The only person in ancient times who objected to having prayers and Masses said for the dead was a 4th century priest named Arius (Aerius), who got upset at not being made a bishop and left the Church to found a sect.

St Augustine points out that the custom of praying for the dead and having Masses offered for them was universally held throughout the Christian world, and Epiphanius traces the belief in praying for the dead to the time of the Apostles.

In other words, everything that did not conform to the new Protestant doctrines.

 

[Eileen_T]

The Jewish historian Josephus, while commenting on the endurance of the Jews under siege in the year 63, writes, “Just as if deep peace enfolded the city, the daily sacrifices, offerings for the dead, and every other act of worship were meticulously carried out to the glory of God” (The Jewish War).

So, if this was a practice at the time of Jesus, and it was a wrong thing to do, why did Jesus not speak out against it or teach his disciples it was wrong? Where in the New Testament writings does it specifically condemn praying and giving offerings for the dead?

It doesn’t, because it was not only an accepted practice, it was a good and holy thing to do.

 

[Keikiolu]

Luk 8:52 And all wept and mourned for her. But he said: Weep not. The maid is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

Jesus said the maid was “sleeping” because she WAS actually SLEEPING,… as in “taking a snooze”, because He had pulled her back from the dead into a state of mortal sleeping…!

Brother I am seeing alot of opinion but no scripture in your posts. You are using alot of eisogesis. I have posted scripture after scripture after scripture disproving the catholic postion on the state of the dead. I am truly sorry you are to close minded to even look at scripture. How many are you going to lead astray from scripture by being closed minded and blind?
Our Lord clearly taught soul sleep and was laughed to scorn for teaching it

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The WORD is Jesus,… not the Bible, alone.

Thus,… why do you leave out those parts of The WORD that are not contained in the Bible…?

Who, in that case, is “closed minded”?

Mahalo ke Akua.

E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe…! Aloha.

 

[BloodStaindRose]

Jesus may have died for our sins, but the Kingdom of Heaven is in a state of purity and no matter how great or small the transgression may be a soul cannot “dirty” the purity of the Kingdom.

Another subject that caught my attention was the comment on how Catholics celebrate the “Last Supper” at every Mass, but Catholics do not recognize Jesus already did this with perfection…

but this person must have forgotten Jesus saying “DO this in remembrance of Me…”

God Bless!

 

[Keikiolu]

Jesus may have died for our sins, but the Kingdom of Heaven is in a state of purity and no matter how great or small the transgression may be a soul cannot “dirty” the purity of the Kingdom.

So, it’s OK (with you) for evil beings to be in Heaven?

Interesting.

Another subject that caught my attention was the comment on how Catholics celebrate the “Last Supper” at every Mass, but Catholics do not recognize Jesus already did this with perfection…

Catholics don’t RE-DO the perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

We HAVE the SAME SACRIFICE (as in “the singular and original”) at the altar.

So, what is your point?

but this person must have forgotten Jesus saying “DO this in remembrance of Me…”

God Bless!

We DO the eating in remembrance.

Only Jesus DOES the sacrificing.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui…!

 

[BloodStaindRose]

So, it’s OK (with you) for evil beings to be in Heaven?

Interesting.

Catholics don’t RE-DO the perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

We HAVE the SAME SACRIFICE (as in “the singular and original”) at the altar.

So, what is your point?

We DO the eating in remembrance.

Only Jesus DOES the sacrificing.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui…!

Sorry but you misunderstood me completely!!!
I was saying sinners CANNOT enter into the Kingdom with sin on their souls that is why there is a process known as Purgatory–to cleanse souls dirtied by sin!

And I was arguing a point that Catholics take part in the celebration of the Last Supper during every Mass.

I am sorry you misunderstood me.

God Bless!

 

[TheHem]

NonDenom wrote:
Hi All
After reading scripture on this, I don’t know how anyone can believe in purgatory. The church used purgatory to collect money from it’s people wanting their loved ones who had died, to get out.
A friend of mine’s sister PAID $300 to her church to have them dedicate 10 masses to her Husband who had died a year ago from suiside. She thought he was purgatory since he had killed himself. Christ’s sacrifice WAS and IS sufficiant for us.
In Him and Him Only

Now, you have to understand the Church’s stance on suicide. God is the ONLY perfect judge on these matters. We do not know what the person expressed at the very last moment before death.

Here’s a question that was posted onhttp://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/faq-cc.html#q31 regarding the stipend:

Why must Catholics pay money for a Mass that is offered up for deceased relatives and friends when the Bible states that the gift of God is not to be purchased with money? (Acts 8:20).

Catholics are not compelled to pay for Masses offered up for someone’s special intention. They are simply reminded that giving a stipend'' (usually $5) is the custom. Priests will oblige without a stipend being paid if the one making the request can ill afford it. Giving stipends for special intention Masses is the custom because it is only fitting and proper that there should be some token of appreciation for the special service rendered, especially in view of the fact that the average priest draws a very small salary. For many priests these stipends mean the difference between standard and sub-standard living conditions. And this custom definitely has scriptural approval. Wrote the Apostle Paul: Who serveth as a soldier at any time, at his own charges? . . . Who feedeth the flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? . . . So also the Lord ordained that they who preach the gospel, should live by the gospel.’’ (I Cor. 9:7-14). Of course the gift of God is not to be purchased with money. But that does not imply that God’s ministers are free-serving slaves. Protestants will generally agree to this because within Protestantism it is likewise customary to give the minister who performs baptisms, marriages, etc. a token of appreciation in the form of money. Protestants do not call their gift of money a stipend, but that is exactly what it is.

 

[VociMike]

Sorry but you misunderstood me completely!!!
I was saying sinners CANNOT enter into the Kingdom with sin on their souls that is why there is a process known as Purgatory–to cleanse souls dirtied by sin!

And I was arguing a point that Catholics take part in the celebration of the Last Supper during every Mass.

I am sorry you misunderstood me.

God Bless!

FWIW, I understood your meaning.

 

[VociMike]

[SIGN]After reading scripture on this, I don’t know how anyone can believe in purgatory.

Then you must believe that you are perfect and without sin and without inclination to sin at the moment you die. If you died right now, are you perfect, without sin and without any inclination to sin? If you are not, you cannot enter heaven without being made so. There are no sinners or wanna-be sinners roaming about in heaven. God’s making one thus perfected is purgatory. Why this great objection to God finishing up the work of our perfection at the time of our death? I repeat, why this great objection? I simply cannot fathom the resistance to it. Why be so afraid to acknowledge this final mercy of God?

 

[Keikiolu]

Sorry but you misunderstood me completely!!!

I was saying sinners CANNOT enter into the Kingdom with sin on their souls that is why there is a process known as Purgatory–to cleanse souls dirtied by sin!

And I was arguing a point that Catholics take part in the celebration of the Last Supper during every Mass.

I am sorry you misunderstood me.

God Bless!

Oh…

Yup,… evil doesn’t get to go into heaven.

…and, Yup,… Eucharist at every Mass.

Sorry about that Chief…!!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[guanophore]

Did you know that the word gospel means “good news”?

Does it sound like “good news” to you that you can attend over a thousand Masses throughout your life and still die not fully purified from sin?

By contrast, does the following statement by the apostle Paul sound like “good news”: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. it is the GIFT of God; not as a result of works. the no one can boast” (Eph. 2:8-9)**

No, it does not discourage me because I know that:

2 Thess 3:2-3
3 But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from evil." and

1 Thess 5:24
24 He who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.

Now I have a question for you. What must we be doing, to do the works of God?

 

[Linkowski]

From the standpoint of these scriptures…why is a stop on the way to being with the Lord not mentioned?

Philippians 1:23 KJV 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Okay…I’m going to step in here and clarify something that some of you are messing up on and then go back and try to fix some of the posted problems.

The relevant parts of the Forum Rules are highlighted in red.
MF

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