Purgatory question

[mijac]

Why, if Jesus died on the cross for our sins to take away our sins, why would we go to Purgatory?

If the atonement for all sins is total, absolute and complete absolving all believers of all accountability and responsibility for our sins then the following passages become meaningless; The following demonstrate the Temporal Consequences of sin and satisfaction of those consequences:

And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves for **charity shall cover the multitude of sins **1 Peter 4:8

Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Dan 4:24, Therefore o King, take my advice; atone for your sins by doing good deeds, and for your misdeeds by kindness to the poor; then your prosperity will be long.

There are other examples
remember all Scripture must be taken into account in arriving at any great truth or Doctrine, one can not be selective in choosing which to listen to and which to ignore because they do not fit one’s biased opinion. Hence the fathers sacred oral tradition are all very helpful in understanding all of this…

 

[Henning]

What to do with Hebrews 1:3 ?

“And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (NASB)”

-or-

“who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high (NAB)”

(both NAB and NASB are based on the Greek)

 

[mijac]

What to do with Hebrews 1:3 ?

“And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (NASB)”

-or-

“who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high (NAB)”

(both NAB and NASB are based on the Greek)

Question are we purifited of all of our sins right now??? I do not believe anyone would go so far as to say that. So then Purification from sins has to do with those who are saved after their life on earth is over. So then the purification from sins in the after life has to do the application of Christ’s Redemptive work and necessarily does not define the how in this verse…is worked out in the afterlife…

 

[GJx86]

What to do with Hebrews 1:3?

It is through Christ’s death that both our justification and sanctification are possible. That doesn’t mean that Christ’s death immediately sanctifies us; if it did, no one would ever sin.

The author of Hebrews clearly doesn’t believe that Christ’s death alone is enough to sanctify us. If he did, why would he have included the imperative statements to seek peace and holiness in Heb. 12:14?

Hebrews 1 is not seeking to make a technical statement about how sin works. It simply identifies Christ as the source of our salvation.

 

[Frinjaaa]

It would also be wise to mention that not everyone has a need for a final purification. Some people die in such perfect grace that they do go straight to heaven at the time of death. These people we call Saints.

The Bible states that we all are saints.
We being, believers or members of the church of Christ.
The definition of a saint is ‘holy people whose lives are consecrated to God. All the Christians belonging to a church or district.’

Therefore, if we are all saints, you state that we all go directly to Heaven and have no need for a ‘final purification’.
Now what is the need for something called Purgatory?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

The Bible states that we all are saints.
We being, believers or members of the church of Christ.
The definition of a saint is ‘holy people whose lives are consecrated to God. All the Christians belonging to a church or district.’

Therefore, if we are all saints, you state that we all go directly to Heaven and have no need for a ‘final purification’.
Now what is the need for something called Purgatory?

We [Christians] are all saints, but we are not all Saints.

 

[Feedmysheep]

The definition of a saint is ‘holy people whose lives are consecrated to God. All the Christians belonging to a church or district.’

I would maintain that, judging from actions alone (as that’s all I can judge by), not everyone who claims to be Christian leads a holy life consecrated to God. So, barring the tedious and God-reserved process of sorting out the “real” Christians from the posers, I would hesitate to use the term “saint” for all who call themselves Christian.

Therefore, if we are all saints, you state that we all go directly to Heaven and have no need for a ‘final purification’.
Now what is the need for something called Purgatory?

See my above post about final sanctification. As a Christian, I STRIVE to lead a holy life consecrated to God, but I fall short. What process will I undergo between my life on Earth where I’ve fallen short of perfection, and my eternal life in Heaven, where I will have achieved Heaven, otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to have access to?

If you can explain to me what you believe about that, then we might be closer to coming to a meeting of the minds about Purgatory.

p.s. I don’t think the Church teaches that no Saint ever underwent a purgation. That’s one poster’s take on it, I’d like to see documentation before throwing it around as established Church teaching.

 

[Ignatius]

Why, if Jesus died on the cross for our sins to take away our sins, why would we go to Purgatory?

Go and learn what purgatory is.
Only those on who are going to heaven by the forgivness obtained grace of Jesus Christ will be in purgatory.

 

[Kronotaur]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but could you please show me where in scripture specific proof of purgatory exists? Much of this to me seems to be based upon slanted interpertation and broad based assumption. Also, if anyone knows the actual history of our church and the apocrypha, please let me know!

 

[Frinjaaa]

See my above post about final sanctification. As a Christian, I STRIVE to lead a holy life consecrated to God, but I fall short. What process will I undergo between my life on Earth where I’ve fallen short of perfection, and my eternal life in Heaven, where I will have achieved Heaven, otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to have access to?

If you can explain to me what you believe about that, then we might be closer to coming to a meeting of the minds about Purgatory…

The Bible says that God forgave us from our past, present, and future sins when Jesus died on the cross (us meaning, the ones who prayed and asked for the Holy Spirit and forgiveness).
So, while we are only STRIVING to lead a life consecrated to God, he cleans up all the mess that didn’t meet ‘Holy standards.’
God knows we CANNOT be perfect no matter how hard we try, but he is a merciful God and gave forgiveness to those of us who focus our lives on trying our best.
I do not believe there is a Purgatory, because God has ALREADY, even NOW, forgiven ‘us’ for our every sin.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but could you please show me where in scripture specific proof of purgatory exists?
Much of this to me seems to be based upon slanted interpertation and broad based assumption.

Can you show me where in Scripture it says that everything must be specified in Scripture? The Church predates the NT. The Church teaches Purgatory. As was mentioned above:

While here on earth, we are in the flesh and struggle against our sinful nature.
When we arrive in Heaven, we will no longer have this struggle against our sinful nature.
The change between what we are now and what we will become is Purgatory.

Also, if anyone knows the actual history of our church and the apocrypha, please let me know!

Both of these questions deserve their own threads, but briefly: The actual history of our Church is found in the Scriptures - Acts, specifically. You would greatly benefit from visiting www.biblechristiansociety.com and taking advantage of the free downloads offered there, ‘One Church’ primarily.

By “apocrypha” do you mean the Deuterocanon or do you mean the writings that nobody considers canonical Scripture, such as the Gospel of Thomas or the Acts of Peter?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

The Bible says that God forgave us from our past, present, and future sins when Jesus died on the cross (us meaning, the ones who prayed and asked for the Holy Spirit and forgiveness).
So, while we are only STRIVING to lead a life consecrated to God, he cleans up all the mess that didn’t meet ‘Holy standards.’
God knows we CANNOT be perfect no matter how hard we try, but he is a merciful God and gave forgiveness to those of us who focus our lives on trying our best.
I do not believe there is a Purgatory, because God has ALREADY, even NOW, forgiven ‘us’ for our every sin.

I’m having trouble locating the “past, present and future sins are all forgiven at one time” passage in my Bible. Do you have a reference, please?

 

[Frinjaaa]

I’m having trouble locating the “past, present and future sins are all forgiven at one time” passage in my Bible. Do you have a reference, please?

1Timothy 2:5 says that He gave Himself a ransom for ALL.

 

[Kronotaur]

That is true…

 

[Pixie_Dust]

1Timothy 2:5 says that He gave Himself a ransom for ALL.

So you believe everyone is going to Heaven, then?

 

[Kronotaur]

That is true…

Human perfection is impossible - by any means constructed and orchestrated by men.

hmm, reading the book of Ephesians makes it hard to believe that the underlying principles for why we even need purgatory are true.

 

[Frinjaaa]

So you believe everyone is going to Heaven, then?

I think that is a rhetorical question.
But, I will back myself saying that the Bible also says God has given us the free will to either accept or deny what He is offering.

Would you like me to also cite that?

 

[div431]

I understand the purpose of praying for the souls in Purgatory. Is there any discourse on whether or not the saints in heaven can intercede for these souls in Purgatory?

 

[NotWorthy]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but could you please show me where in scripture specific proof of purgatory exists? Much of this to me seems to be based upon slanted interpertation and broad based assumption. Also, if anyone knows the actual history of our church and the apocrypha, please let me know!

I hate to beat a dead horse, but
a) Maccabees clearly teaches that the souls of the dead benefit from our prayers:
b) The authority of the Church teaches that the souls of the dead benefit from our prayers.
c) Paul teaches of a purging done after our death in 1 Corinthians chapter 3

10
According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, 11 ****** for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.*** 12 ****** If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,****** 13 ****** the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work***.*** 14 ****** If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.****** 15 ****** But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,but only as through fire***.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Bible says that God forgave us from our past, present, and future sins when Jesus died on the cross (us meaning, the ones who prayed and asked for the Holy Spirit and forgiveness).
So, while we are only STRIVING to lead a life consecrated to God, he cleans up all the mess that didn’t meet ‘Holy standards.’
God knows we CANNOT be perfect no matter how hard we try, but he is a merciful God and gave forgiveness to those of us who focus our lives on trying our best.
I do not believe there is a Purgatory, because God has ALREADY, even NOW, forgiven ‘us’ for our every sin.

Sigh…

Nowhere in Catholic teaching does it say that in Purgatory our sins are forgiven. Please learn proper Catholic teaching before you call it false.