Purgatory question

[NotWorthy]

1Timothy 2:5 says that He gave Himself a ransom for ALL.

Two questions:

So he forgave everybody’s sins with that one event?!?

Can you go out and fornicate knowing that "it’s ok, God will forgive (or has already forgiven) me?

 

[NotWorthy]

That is true…

Human perfection is impossible - by any means constructed and orchestrated by men.

hmm, reading the book of Ephesians makes it hard to believe that the underlying principles for why we even need purgatory are true.

Then please will someone answer me:
If God forgave King David, why did he allow the son of David and Bathsheba to die as further punishment?

 

[NotWorthy]

I think that is a rhetorical question.
But, I will back myself saying that the Bible also says God has given us the free will to either accept or deny what He is offering.

Would you like me to also cite that?

But you denied the Catholic teaching of Purgatory because you said God died and redeemed all. Now YOU are putting stipulations on it, immediately after accusing US of putting stipulations on it.

 

[SD_Catholic]

if anyone knows the actual history of our church and the apocrypha, please let me know!

Posts #25 and #26 will give you a start

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

I think that is a rhetorical question.
But, I will back myself saying that the Bible also says God has given us the free will to either accept or deny what He is offering.

Would you like me to also cite that?

I didn’t see the verse for past, present, and future cited yet

Frinjaaa

The Bible says that God forgave us from our past, present, and future sins when Jesus died on the cross

If all future sins were forgiven already why did Jesus tell the Apostles they had the power to retain sins and hold them bound? Why would they be given the power to forgive sins if they were already forgiven? Why would we be told to ask for forgiveness if they were already forgiven? Why do we ourselves have to forgive 7 x 70 times if they’re already forgiven?

SD

 

[Feedmysheep]

God knows we CANNOT be perfect no matter how hard we try, but he is a merciful God and gave forgiveness to those of us who focus our lives on trying our best.
I do not believe there is a Purgatory, because God has ALREADY, even NOW, forgiven ‘us’ for our every sin.

Nothing unclean can enter heaven (REV 21:27). That’s that. If I am NOT perfect, I cannot enter heaven. End of story.

My question has nothing to do with the forgiveness of sins. My question, which you have yet to answer, deals with the process of final sanctification. I am forgiven through Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the cross. We both agree on that. The process of purgatory has NOTHING to do with the FORGIVENESS of sins.

The question I am waiting you to address stands: How will I, a sinful creature who STRIVES for perfection, actually OBTAIN that perfection between earth and heaven?

 

[mijac]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but could you please show me where in scripture specific proof of purgatory exists? Much of this to me seems to be based upon slanted interpertation and broad based assumption. Also, if anyone knows the actual history of our church and the apocrypha, please let me know!

Do note the Jews have a form of purgagory though using different wors for the teachings. The Catholic church and Eastern Orthodox all prior to Protestants going back to the time of Christ taught from all the ancient fathers the concept of Purgatory and the benifit of offering a prayers for the church suffering in purgatory…

Why would anyone go to purgatory?** to be cleansed-purged of remaining sins and worldly attachments**. “**Nothing unclean shall enter heaven” Revelations 21:27.

**Mat 5:48 **Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. (**The perfection comes through the cleansing, the purging of a soul stained with sin, of a soul still held by some chains of attachment to the world.) (necessity of cleansing of all sin being made perfect occurs upon death))

Heb 12:14 … pursue that consecration and holiness, without which no one will [ever] see the Lord.

Heb: 12:23** (Pugation)-the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect.---- **(They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death.

Prayer for the dead: 2 Timothy 1:16-18, “May the Lord grant mercy to the house of onesiphorus, because he often comforted me and was not ashamed of my chains; but when he came to Rome, he sought me out diligently and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And thou knowest very well the many services he rendered me at Ephesus.”** ( Onesiphorus is spoken of as now dead; he was an official of the church at Ephsus.)2 Tim 1:18 fromfrom the UBS Handbook Series. Copyright 1961-1997, by United Bible Societies.)**verses seem to imply Onesiphorus’ death, and, since he prays God to have mercy upon his soul, show that prayers are profitable not only to the living, but also to the dead. They are an early illustration of Christian prayer for the dead. (Catholic Commentary edited by Dom Bernard Orchard)

Matthew 5:25-26, & 48, "come to terms with thy opponent quickly while lest thy opponent deliver thee to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and** thou be cast into prison**. Amen I say to thee,** thou wilt not come out from it until thou hast paid the last penny.** (the judge is God, the prison is the place of purging, of cleansing, the releasing or coming out of prison cannot occur if one is sent to hell, see church fathers below for commentary and meaning of this passage as taught from the get go.** Most all of the early church fathers provide the interpretation of purgatory to this passage **According the Haydock commentary on scripture:-Ver. 25. & 26. Agree whilst you are in the way, or wayfaring men, i.e. in this life, lest you be cast into prison, i.e. according to Sts. Cyprian, Ambrose, and Origen, into purgatory; according to St. Augustine, into hell, in which, as the debt is to be paid to inflexible justice, it can never be acquitted, and of course no release can be hoped for from that prison. (Haydock)

1 Corinthians 3:14-15, “if his work abides which he has built thereon he will receive reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved yet so as through fire.” Heaven has no fire, and Hell is forever, only Purgatory could explain this passage?..{include the idea of purificatory suffering after this life, i.e. in purgatory. (A Catholic Commentary on Holy }Scripture,…{Divers of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment from the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and is such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven. These words of the apostle, the Latin Fathers in the Council of Florence[1] Haydock Commentary}

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, that **every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account **for it in the day of judgment.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

That is true…

Human perfection is impossible - by any means constructed and orchestrated by men.

hmm, reading the book of Ephesians makes it hard to believe that the underlying principles for why we even need purgatory are true.

Quote from CS Lewis, who was not Catholic:

I believe in purgatory. Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist’s chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn, a voice will say, ‘Rinse your mouth out with this.’ This will be purgatory.

When we get to Heaven we will have been changed, mortal will have put on immortality, corruptible will have put on incorruption. That change from one state of being (mortal, corruptible) to another (eternally immortal and incorruptible) is Purgatory.

 

[Frinjaaa]

Two questions:

So he forgave everybody’s sins with that one event?!?

Can you go out and fornicate knowing that "it’s ok, God will forgive (or has already forgiven) me?

If one is able to fornicate while, at the same moments, think about God’s truth, I am not convinced that they have truly given their lives over to God.

Do you not believe God has the power to forgive those who ask for it with one event?

 

[graceandglory]

The Bible says that God forgave us from our past, present, and future sins when Jesus died on the cross (us meaning, the ones who prayed and asked for the Holy Spirit and forgiveness).

Please give us the verse where the Bible says exactly that. What you are sharing with us is someone’s interpretation of what they think is the means of salvation. What does the Bible actually say? Not just someone’s interpretation.

So, while we are only STRIVING to lead a life consecrated to God, he cleans up all the mess that didn’t meet ‘Holy standards.’

God knows we CANNOT be perfect no matter how hard we try, but he is a merciful God and gave forgiveness to those of us who focus our lives on trying our best.

I do not believe there is a Purgatory, because God has ALREADY, even NOW, forgiven ‘us’ for our every sin.

These are nice, warm thoughts, but your theology isn’t supported by Scripture.
Please provide scriptures for these things that you believe.

 

[graceandglory]

If one is able to fornicate while, at the same moments, think about God’s truth, I am not convinced that they have truly given their lives over to God.

It’s not really up to you to be convinced. What does Scripture say?
Are there examples of holy people in the Bible who royally have blown it? You bet!!
King David for one. The Apostle Peter for another. I’m not suggesting it, but we do commit sins after we are “saved.”

 

[graceandglory]

Why, if Jesus died on the cross for our sins to take away our sins, why would we go to Purgatory?

Hi teentruthseeker,

Here’s a good resource to find tons of scriptures on purgatory:
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
God bless you as you hunger and thirst for the truth.
"You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
***So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.***2 Thessalonians 2:15

Praying for you!

 

[graceandglory]

1Timothy 2:5 says that He gave Himself a ransom for ALL.

Right. Christ’s death atones for all people.
"I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father, except through me.
Only through Christ’s suffering and death on the cross do we have access to the Father and to everlasting life in heaven.

Purgatory is not a denial of the entrance to Heaven. It’s like the “antechamber” of heaven. Only those who are headed to Heaven stop off, somewhere between this life and the final day. Purgatory will only last until the Second Coming of Christ when the dead shall be raised, according to scripture. If the dead aren’t already in heaven, where are they???

There are so many scripture references that don’t SAY purgatory, which means a state of “purging” or “cleansing”, but which refer to the state after death and before heaven.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

Scripture backs it up.
If the Jews believe it, the Catholics and the Orthodox believe it, and only Christians in the past 500 yrs who have been privately interpreting scripture on their own DON’T believe it, doesn’t it make sense that the Church is probably right on this one?

 

[NotWorthy]

If one is able to fornicate while, at the same moments, think about God’s truth, I am not convinced that they have truly given their lives over to God.

Do you not believe God has the power to forgive those who ask for it with one event?

As mentioned, I believe King David would fall under this category. I only wish that I have the trust in God that David had.

 

[GJx86]

If one is able to fornicate while, at the same moments, think about God’s truth, I am not convinced that they have truly given their lives over to God.

What is the level of sin that divides people who have given their lives over to God from those who have not?

If I get frustrated and drop the F-bomb under my breath at work every once in a great while, is that proof that I was never really a Christian to begin with?

Do you not believe God has the power to forgive those who ask for it with one event?

We do – that event is the sacrament of Reconciliation, as you’re learning about in another thread

But it should be stated again that the issue of purgatory, which this thread is about, is not one of forgiveness: It is about temporal punishment for wrongs committed, and God shows us in 2 Samuel 11 and 12 that these punishments apply even when he has forgiven us for our sins.

 

[Frinjaaa]

Please give us the verse where the Bible says exactly that. What you are sharing with us is someone’s interpretation of what they think is the means of salvation. What does the Bible actually say? Not just someone’s interpretation.

These are nice, warm thoughts, but your theology isn’t supported by Scripture.
Please provide scriptures for these things that you believe.

when i have more time than I do now, I will locate the scripture.
But, if you guys are going to provide me with ‘scripture’ that I don’t even believe to truly be from the Bible, then I don’t see how that should reassure me that you are correct in your theories.

 

[Kronotaur]

Good point GJx86. No one is free from sin including those that us catholics rely upon to interpet the bible for us and teach us scripture. If the post above stating that those who get saved and still sin, are infact actually still completely without salvation, then we are all in big trouble. Unless we are missing something pretty important…

Worse yet, if those who preach the faith to us sin, then surely their interpretations are corrupted as well.

The implications of that comment, if true, are huge. Either there are people living on earth teaching scripture that are free from sin or there are not. The pure depth of that line of thought transends even into fundamental chruch doctorine regarding the issue of the now regarded as debunked belief in papal infallacy and the currently held claim of Church infallacy in regards to scriptural teaching and doctorine. It also throws into light the issue of why the church sees fit to devalue certain scripture through methods of re-interpretation to fit the most current world-view of reality.

The only genuinely proven method that we have to detect and route out this corruption lies in most translations of the bible which the word of God. (there are exceptions which have been reworded to made certain doctorines work…) We can know that the message has not changed beyond the occasional translational mistake because of the almost direct matches found in today’s bible and the dead sea scolls. We can also determine this because the church has kept copies of the original letters from the NT.

 

[NotWorthy]

Good point GJx86. No one is free from sin including those that us catholics rely upon to interpet the bible for us and teach us scripture. If the post above stating that those who get saved and still sin, are infact actually still completely without salvation, then we are all in big trouble. Unless we are missing something pretty important…

Worse yet, if those who preach the faith to us sin, then surely their interpretations are corrupted as well.

Where does it say this? Those that teach are sinless? That’s news to me. I would have counted Peter and Paul amongs the sinners. What say you?

The implications of that comment, if true, are huge. Either there are people living on earth teaching scripture that are free from sin or there are not. The pure depth of that line of thought transends even into fundamental chruch doctorine regarding the issue of the now regarded as debunked belief in papal infallacy and the currently held claim of Church infallacy in regards to scriptural teaching and doctorine. It also throws into light the issue of why the church sees fit to devalue certain scripture through methods of re-interpretation to fit the most current world-view of reality.

So, what teachings have been “re-interpreted”. Maybe that woud be a good thread.

We could start with faith alone, work into OSAS, then delve into Sola Scriptura. We can cover all the heresies! It would be a hoot!

The only genuinely proven method that we have to detect and route out this corruption lies in most translations of the bible which the word of God. (there are exceptions which have been reworded to made certain doctorines work…)

Ah, so you’ve read the Wycliffe Bible. Good. That We can know that the message has not changed beyond the occasional translational mistake because of the almost direct matches found in today’s bible and the dead sea scolls. Wedude did a whole bunch of reworking.

can also determine this because the church has kept copies of the original letters from the NT.

Yes, you can thenak your frienly neighborhood Catholic Church for doing that for you, Praise the Lord!

 

[graceandglory]

when i have more time than I do now, I will locate the scripture.
But,**** if you guys are going to provide me with ‘scripture’ that I don’t even believe to truly be from the Bible****/B], then I don’t see how that should reassure me that you are correct in your theories.

What do you mean???
Are you the “court of final arbitration” or is Scripture?
You are now the one who decides what is Scripture?
The reason we use Maccabees is because it is a historical book of Jewish tradition. It tells us about the Jewish faith. Even without that scripture, Purgatory is apparent throughout the New Testament. But you can’t just pick and choose one or two verses, you have to assimilate all of scripture to understand that. That’s why we have the Church. In 2,000 years the teaching remains the same, sometimes a council is convened to hammer out some more difficult theological understandings.

(That is why I like to call the Catholic Church the “full gospel” Church. We don’t pick and choose. One scripture leads to another, and in order to understand purgatory, one must understand the inerrancy of scripture, and believe **all **scripture is profitable for reproof and correction. This is the full mean deal, being Catholic!

Can you imagine if someone today wanted to get rid of a book of the Bible that didn’t fit with his theology? He would be a heretic. Well, basically that’s what they did in the Protestant revolt. They decided they were bigger and better than the Church that Jesus started.

The Catholic Church compiled the Scriptures, and decided which scriptures to be included. That’s just a basic history fact. If you check out your church history, like I did before I converted, you might find that your “church history” section only goes back about 500 yrs to the protestant reformation.

The history of the Christian Church --the Catholic Church that Jesus Christ founded – goes back to Christ. It was the councils of the Catholic Church (you can find history of the first councils in the Book of Acts, but they have continued for 2,000 yrs)
the councils are who determined which scriptures are included in the OT/NT.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Frinjaa,

While you’re looking for the requested scripture, could you also address my question about final sanctification?