Purgatory question

[peary]

Originally Posted by **peary **
Actually, on the last day when the dead (bodies) are raised and united with their souls, all bodies will be reconstituted and raised from the earth. Souls, wherever they may be at the time, will be joined to those bodies and then the whole person will unite in either Heaven or Hell. That is the way I understand Catholic doctrine.

Originally posted by teentruthseeker
wait so… what if you are alive on earth when that happens and you are not pure, would you go to heaven?

Answer: Souls that are already either in Heaven, experiencing purification after death, or Hell, on the “last day” will unite with their bodies for all eternity. We don’t know what will happen to the souls experiencing purification after death, but since they are on their way to Heaven, God may allow them to eventually continue this purification with their bodies until they can enter Heaven. If you are alive on earth when the last day occurs and you are not pure, you would either be in Heaven or Hell. and, of course, through all of this, there is still the mercy of God and it is His final decision. That is how I interpret it. Of course, it is only my opinion.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Are these private revelations part of the Traditions of the church?

Are they also part of what is called something like “the fullness of the truth” that is found only in the catholic church?

Not capital T tradition, such as the Immaculate Conception, but little t tradition, such as the covering of women’s heads, the vestments the priests wear, etc. etc.

They’re part of the the riches of the Church. Since the Church contains the fullness of the Truth, and the Truth, we as Christians know, is a Person, not a Thing, there is more to explore, understand, and benefit from than a single person could do in a dozen lifetimes.

Again, Church-approved private revelation can do nothing but enrich the spiritual lives of us and others, but they’re not required of us the same way Public revelation is.

And yes, I know that certain things, like the Purgatory prayer some people here are (rightly) devoted to would do nothing but good things if everyone prayed it. However, for Holy Mother Church to require it would be in error, as it is not part of public revelation.

As for why it’s not more heavily promoted, I have my suspicions, but they’re probably better left to another thread.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Whatever purgatory is— be it a place or condition the promise is that a catholic would be released relatively shortly by this prayer.

NotWorthy
The prayers of the righteous are powerful indeed!!!

I have no problem with this promise.

The promise was made to Saint Gertrude that the prayer she was given would release 1000 souls from purgatory. Can any prayer of any righteous person release a soul from purgatory?

 

[justasking4]

Dogma’s are part of “Traditions” of the Church.

“traditions” of the Church are changeable, but “Traditions” aren’t.

The Fullness of the Truth IS the Catholic Church. They include (but are not limited to) dogmas, disciplines and tradition.

Are you saying then that these private revelations that people have had throughout the centuries are part of the fullness of the Truth in the Catholic Church?

 

[NotWorthy]

The promise was made to Saint Gertrude that the prayer she was given would release 1000 souls from purgatory. Can any prayer of any righteous person release a soul from purgatory?

No, of course not. But God’s Will can do it. And God asks us to pray with confidence and zeal.

So, no, our prayers don’t release them. But God’s answering of our prayers can release them.

 

[peary]

The promise was made to Saint Gertrude that the prayer she was given would release 1000 souls from purgatory. Can any prayer of any righteous person release a soul from purgatory?

**Well, the Bible *does *say (somewhere) that God hears the prayer of the righteous, so I guess, yes. **

 

[NotWorthy]

Are you saying then that these private revelations that people have had throughout the centuries are part of the fullness of the Truth in the Catholic Church?

Yes and no. Those that are approved by the Church are part of the fullness of Truth. And some of them that may not have been approved by the Church are part of the Fullness of Truth.

The Fullness of Truth is what the Catholic Church teaches. Some of these apparitions may agree with these teachings, whether the apparition itself has been approved or not. As I mentioned before, the Church is a staunch skeptic when looking at these apparitions. Just because something said during a visitation agrees with Catholic teaching doesn’t mean the Church will just throw it’s stamp of approval over the whole affair.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t understand why there is so much concern over purgatory

I don’t understand why you are so concerned about it either, ja4, since you don’t believe it exists!

since there are a couple of promises made that a catholic won’t have to spend much time there if they do certain things. Here are a couple of promises that if followed will not result in much or anytime in purgatory;

Actually, purgatory exists outside of “time” so our human notions of “years” are really not relevant at all.

If these 2 promises are true why doesn’t the catholic church promote these so that all catholics will know them and practice them?

These are private revelations, and are not binding on the faithful. The Catholic Church does not promote private revelations for everyone.

How could they not be necessarily TRUE if the catholic church supports them?

They have been investigated, and determined not to contain anything contrary to the public revelation given by Jesus to the Apostles. However, the possibility exists that, since they are private, they only apply to the individual that received them.

The church may not know how long someone is there but evidently these promises tells us that a person would not have to be in there for long.
Is not the Brown Scapluar and the prayer of Saint Gertrude supported by the church? Has the church ever condemned these things?

The notion of “time” is a human perception that has been overlaid upon purgation. The Kingdom of Heaven that is not of this world is not bound by time.

The prayer and devotion is allowed by the church. However, there are a great many things with which the Church does not agree or support that she does not outright condemn.

Secondly, if they have not condemned these things why does it not promote these things? Why not get the word out to all catholics to pray this prayer of Saint Gertrude so that purgatory could be emptied?

Because it is a private revelation, and for all we know, only applies to the person who received it.

 

[guanophore]

So if they are approved by the Church wouldn’t that make them Church teaching?

i dont understand

whats the difference between private and public rebelations?

Something allowed by the Church does not mean it applies to everyone. Some people are called to certain disciplines and ways of life that others are not.

Public revelation is that which preceeded Christ, and what Christ taught, and through His apostles. Jesus is the fulness of God’s revelation of HImself to man. though Him, the deposit of faith was once and for all delivered to the saints. All of us are responsible for the public revelation. Persons who receive private revelation are responsible for themselves.

 

[guanophore]

Whatever purgatory is— be it a place or condition the promise is that a catholic would be released relatively shortly by this prayer.

Why does this matter to you, since you don’t believe there is such a thing as purgatory, and you don’t believe in prayers for the dead?

Are these private revelations part of the Traditions of the church?

Tradition with a small “t” (customs of men). They may contain elements of Divine Revelation (Tradition with a Big “T”). Tradition is what was given to us by Christ through the Apostles. Such as purgatory and praying for the dead.

Are they also part of what is called something like “the fullness of the truth” that is found only in the catholic church?

No, that phrase only refers to the Divine Deposit of faith, of which private revelations are not a part.

 

[jean8]

**of a Purgatory actually isn’t state soul after death. ce’. It’s Some souls experience a purification of sin after death, and this spiritual experience is referred to as purgatory.a 'plathe

There are two parts to sin - one is guilt, the other is temporal. It’s like someone who steals your car. If you know who the person is, you can forgive him, but would you let him keep your car? Or, because he broke the law, he should not do any time or be punished in any way?

That is how sin is. There is a residual element to it. Those sins which we have not confessed, those which we have forgotten or unaware of prior to death, these are what need purification before we enter heaven. We are with the Lord after death, but I think of it as various degrees of experiencing his love. And I think it is the experience of his love which purifies those of us who have to experience purification after death.**

peary,
You said, "of a Purgatory actually isn’t state soul after death. ce’. It’s Some souls experience a purification of sin after death, and this spiritual experience is referred to as purgatory.a 'plathe "

Don’t you believe that Jesus did it all when he said from the cross, “It is finished.” (Jn.19:30) why do you need further purification? When a person dies , that person is immediately in the presence of the Lord.
He died for you. Are you intending to purify yourself?

God bless,
jean8

 

[NotWorthy]

peary,
You said, "of a Purgatory actually isn’t state soul after death. ce’. It’s Some souls experience a purification of sin after death, and this spiritual experience is referred to as purgatory.a 'plathe "

Don’t you believe that Jesus did it all when he said from the cross, “It is finished.” (Jn.19:30) why do you need further purification? When a person dies , that person is immediately in the presence of the Lord.
He died for you. Are you intending to purify yourself?

God bless,
jean8

You are misunderstanding Catholic Theology with these questions. No one is saying Jesus did it all when He died for us. (BTW, “It is finished” DOES NOT mean our role in our own Salvation is finished). And no one is claiming that we “purify ourselves”.

But, as mentioned numerous times, nothing unpure can enter heaven. If we are sinful, we are still unpure. Purgatory cleanses us of the (name removed by moderator)urities.

 

[peary]

peary,
You said, "of a Purgatory actually isn’t state soul after death. ce’. It’s Some souls experience a purification of sin after death, and this spiritual experience is referred to as purgatory.a 'plathe "

Don’t you believe that Jesus did it all when he said from the cross, “It is finished.” (Jn.19:30) why do you need further purification? When a person dies , that person is immediately in the presence of the Lord.
He died for you. Are you intending to purify yourself?

God bless,
jean8

**Good Lord, how did all that get screwed up?? This is what I wrote:

" Purgatory actually isn’t a ‘place’. It is the possible state of one’s soul after death. Some souls experience a purification after death, and this experience is what is called a purgatory."

Yes, the Lord died for me, but the sins I commit after accepting Him as my personal Lord and Savior is a different matter. That is why Paul says that he works out his salvation (throughout his life) “with fear and trembling.” Why would he have fear and trembling about his salvation if his salvation was such a done deal? Nothing unclean gets into heaven. **

 

[mangy_dog]

**Good Lord, how did all that get screwed up?? This is what I wrote:

" Purgatory actually isn’t a ‘place’. It is the possible state of one’s soul after death. Some souls experience a purification after death, and this experience is what is called a purgatory."

Yes, the Lord died for me, but the sins I commit after accepting Him as my personal Lord and Savior is a different matter. That is why Paul says that he works out his salvation (throughout his life) “with fear and trembling.” Why would he have fear and trembling about his salvation if his salvation was such a done deal? Nothing unclean gets into heaven. **

Hello Peary,

Purgatory is actually a place. Not a place as we relate to physical places. But a realm. It is also a condition in which the church suffering - purges their faults with the help of the prayers of the church militant.

And you are very correct about the Apostle Paul. While there are other scripture passages that allude to purgatory, this specific passage is excellent because here we have Paul (protestants love Paul) talking about “fear and trembling”. Why?! isn’t Paul “once saved always saved???”

Thank you.

 

[peary]

Hello Peary,

Purgatory is actually a place. Not a place as we relate to physical places. But a realm. It is also a condition in which the church suffering - purges their faults with the help of the prayers of the church militant.

**Maybe it is; maybe it isn’t. The CCC doesn’t describe it as a ‘place’ but as an experience of some souls after death. I guess (hopefully) when I get there I’ll figure it out. **

 

[Feedmysheep]

Purgatory is actually a place. Not a place as we relate to physical places. But a realm.

Wow…I’m pretty sure our Holy Father has specifically stated that Purgatory isn’t a place, realm, or anything other than a state of being, a process the soul undergoes.

 

[guanophore]

The promise was made to Saint Gertrude that the prayer she was given would release 1000 souls from purgatory. Can any prayer of any righteous person release a soul from purgatory?

What would be the harm in trying? The Apostles taught us to “bear one another’s burdensm and thus fulfill the Law of Christ”. And “pray for one another, that you may be healed”.

Have you never prayed a prayer and it was not answered the way you wanted? Did God’s different answer damage your prayer life? Did not knowing if you would get what you wanted damage your prayer life?

 

[guanophore]

Don’t you believe that Jesus did it all when he said from the cross, “It is finished.” (Jn.19:30)

He was referring to the fourth cup of the Passover. His sacrifice was finished, the Passover lamb was sacrificed. His work is done, but ours is not.

why do you need further purification?

We live in a sinful world, and we have a sin nature.

When a person dies , that person is immediately in the presence of the Lord.

Well, to some extent, the Christian is always in the presence of the Lord, and for that matter, so is everyone! However, sin separates us from God, even though God has wiped away our sins in the blood of Christ, the effects of those sins sometimes remain. Please do all of us a favor, and read in the library on purgatory.

He died for you. Are you intending to purify yourself?

God bless,
jean8

Both things are true. Because he died for us, we are to live a life worthly of thec alling to which we are called.

James 4:7-10
8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into dejection. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you."

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we will be has not yet been revealed. What we do know is this: when he is revealed, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is. 3 And all who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure."

 

[mangy_dog]

Selective listening.

It is truly a blissful “state of being”.

It is probably the reason that the church has to make dogmatic pronouncements.

 

[guanophore]

Are you saying then that these private revelations that people have had throughout the centuries are part of the fullness of the Truth in the Catholic Church?

The Church affirms that private revelation and commandments are given to some people that are not meant for everyone.