Purgatory: Real or Imagined?

[Techno2000]

Deb, things in Heaven will be different. Yet if one truly believes, there will be no Purgatory. I’m happy that you are happy with your conversion, but I will never go back to the RCC church.

I am offended by people that pray for the dead. How about the folks that pay obscene amounts of money for Gregorian masses, so that person will go to Heaven, even if he/she were in Hell? These are beliefs that I WAS TAUGHT when I went to the Catholic school. None of this was imagined or thought up.

Things change, yes, I understand that, but this much?

'" I am offended by people that pray for the dead"

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. 2 Machabees 12:46

Then you must be Offended by the Bible .

 

[Mannyfit75]

'" I am offended by people that pray for the dead"

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. 2 Machabees 12:46

Then you must be Offended by the Bible .

Psst, Techno2000, I don’t think he has the Maccabees in his Bible…

 

[Techno2000]

Psst, Techno2000, I don’t think he has the Maccabees in his Bible…

Then he/she must have got short changed

 

[fdmilkis]

Karl,

I am not whining and I do not need to “get a life”. I have one, thank you and I am happy with where I am now. I would rather die than to go back where I was.

Who established your church?

Who established the Catholic church?

Which church therefore is closer to God?

I mean it doesn’t take a genius to figure that out you know?

 

[mark_a]

but from my “own” experience" I know that if a homily is more than ten seconds long, there are people complaining. Even my own folks, who are in their late 80’s. My mom goes to mass all the time and drags dad, who can barely walk and doesn’t really know what is going on around him. She goes, flirts with the guys and comes back home.

That little old lady wasn’t tired out, she even mentioned to me that she misses the “old days” when mass was in Latin and you didn’t have to know what was going on. wow.

Respectfully, have you considered that maybe you have a family problem instead of a Church problem?

 

[Greg27]

I interpret purgatory to mean the process whereby whatever selfishness exists in us that separates us from God is purged away before we can see God by being totally united to him. Dante pictured it well when the blessed in heaven have their wills perfectly in union with God, while those in purgatory still do not and have to be ‘purified’ until they are.

 

[water]

She goes, flirts with the guys and comes back home. I do the driving but I won’t go into the church.

That little old lady wasn’t tired out, she even mentioned to me that she misses the “old days” when mass was in Latin and you didn’t have to know what was going on. wow.

Does the Church ever teach people to go to church for flirting?
Does the Church ever teach you that you don’t have to know what is going on at the Mass?

Sound like it was your family problem instead.
Sometimes there are more problems at home for us to deal with than to see problems of somebody else.

Just a thought.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Does the Church ever teach people to go to church for flirting?
Does the Church ever teach you that you don’t have to know what is going on at the Mass?

Sound like it was your family problem instead.
Sometimes there are more problems at home for us to deal with than to see problems of somebody else.

Just a thought.

From what I can tell many of them leave the church because of disobedient Catholics. Of course some leave because of doctrine issues, but some leave because of bad Catholics.

I talk to a Baptist and he said he saw some preachers preached but they go end up going to the clubs and flirt… I think that is common amongst churches regardless.

 

[Bishopite]

BelFarfalla - Yes, when I was attending the Catholic school, Purgatory was taught as a place that had fire such as Hell and you had to go there unless you died in the state of grace. You could stockpile indulgences, that would help you get out sooner. Also, the nuns taught that if you died wearing a scapular, you had it pretty good as the Blessed Mother visits Purgatory every Thursday and if you are there, with your scapular on, She’d take you right to Heaven. Wow.

jmcrae - We “had” to go to church. I was just trying to make a point when I said “had”. I didn’t mind it, but after a while, you noticed that people were just sitting there, daydreaming, staring out the window. As far as people leaving early and arriving late, that is something that ALWAYS happens. It’s not an isolated incident. You might not notice it when you are in church yourself, but just for humor, go watch the people that leave early. You’ll see the first volley of people leaving, usually about 20 minutes before the service is over. I know. I witness that every Saturday.

I have never seen anyone leave a Protestant service early. Not unless they were carried out on a stretcher.

I can tell you from thirty-eight years as a Baptist Protestant that I have seen many people leave services early. But that’s here nor there theologically.
As a child I was taught in the Southern Baptist church that I just had to accept Jesus as “my personal Lord and Savior” and poof that’s all I needed to do; what I and other young people did apart from church activities was a concern, because I had Jesus and was once saved always saved. My point being, perceptions in our childhood are one thing and to say you completely understood Catholic theology is another, in fact in appears you didn’t know it at all. I didn’t understand my Protestant theology well, until I was in my twenties.

The word “purgatory” is a word that explains a true theological concept, just as “Trinity” is a word that explains three persons, one God with the same nature, of the same substance (homoosius).

But let me ask you , when you die will you be completely sanctified?

 

[nkelly]

Purgatory. I grew up in a Catholic home, went to Catholic schools and attended mass all the time because I “had” to. To this day, I cannot understand just WHY Catholics run off to mass every Sunday, (or Saturday night, so Sunday isn’t shot) arrive late, leave 20 minutes early, and wow, they “got it done” for the week. Then to believe in something like Purgatory, well, that is beyond my imagination.

Hello beartaich, I believe that the existence of Purgatory is further proof of God’s mercy. We probably both agree that nothing impure/defiled can enter Heaven. I think there are very, very few of us who will die with no stain of sin on our souls. Those who die with sanctifying grace in their souls and are saved, would most likely have the stain of sin on their souls and have to purge these stains before entering Heaven. When we sin, we don’t get away scot free but as Jesus said, we must “pay the last farthing”.

I would highly recommend St. Catherine of Genoa’s Treatise of Purgatory which I think you may find very interesting:

ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/CATPUR.TXT

God bless,
Noel.

 

[jmcrae]

I bet that you have forgotten the athletic nature of Catholic worship. Up, down, kneel, turn and shake a few hands, She might have been just honestly worn out!

Did you also catch the part that it was Palm Sunday? That’s a long Mass, anyway, and there is very little sitting at that one. If they did the processional at the beginning of it, then it would have been even longer than normal.

My knees are always worn out at the end of Palm Sunday, and I’m only in my 40s.

 

[FCEGM]

From what I can tell many of them leave the church because of disobedient Catholics. Of course some leave because of doctrine issues, but some leave because of bad Catholics.

It’s funny, isn’t it, Manny, that many who leave because of disobedient Catholics never stop to think: “But WAIT, Catholicism formed St. Mother Teresa of Calcutta and St. Maximillian Kolbe and St. Teresa of Jesus and Dorothy Day and St. Augustine and John Paul II and St. Therese of Lisieux and St. Dominic Savio and Bl. Kateri Tekakwitha, doooh”. :doh2:

 

[MariaG]

well, I say amen. Guess what? Catholics agree, once your sins are forgiven, then they are forgiven. The problem is that you don’t really understand what purgatory is. That’s okay. This is what this forum is for.

I think that the concept of purgatory can best be explained through examples.
.

I agree

A great example of this from scripture is David. He was forgiven of his sin, but his first born son “must surely die” because of his sin.

But if I may make a suggestion? If the OP has not already done so, why don’t you make new threads for the many and separate subjects.

It is obvious that what was learned by him was in error and documents from the Church CAN be produced to show that the Church has not changed our teachings, but rather, the OP was taught very poorly.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[NotWorthy]

Psst, Techno2000, I don’t think he has the Maccabees in his Bible…

That’s right. They follow Martin Luther’s Canon (Tradition of Men) that removed that (and other) book from the Christian Canon.

Now that’s sad… and unbiblical!

 

[NotWorthy]

I just started reading this thread, hoping it was on Purgatory. Sadly, it hasn’t. Before I try to help get it back on the subject, I need to add these two cents worth.

5 years ago, I was the person sleeping during the homily. Even though I never left early or arrived late, my mind was rarely totally there in Mass. BORING!!!

Then I noticed a woman sitting next to me with the biggest look of rapture on her face, all throughout the Mass. It was amazing. Now, I knew enough about the Bible to be able to relate this scenario - her ecstasy in the midst of my mental sleep. I remembered the woman hemorhaging who reached out and touched Jesus’ cloak. She was cured. Meanwhile, numerous other people touched Jesus with no effect. These people were me!!! Since then, I’ve become like that woman (in a spiritual sense). Like you, I can’t get enough of the Mass. My day is incomplete if I can’t make a daily Mass!!!

Beartaich, my point being, is that the Mass hasn’t changed. I have. Maybe it was not your fault, but you got nothing out of the Mass because you didn’t reach out to touch Christ’s cloak while He was in your presence. Shame on your Catechists!!! Shame on your teachers!!!

Whatever the reason, quit trying to judge all Catholics by your own shortcomings in the Mass. It’s the most beautiful thing on earth!!!

Now back to Purgatory…

 

[NotWorthy]

Now, regards to Purgatory…

Bear, don’t you read throughout the Old and the New Testament of God’s Love like a cleansing fire? Doesn’t Paul tell us of our works being burned by fire? Don’t you think Catholics use this to build our teaching on Purgatory?

 

[Pryority7]

Bear…I can understand your disbelief in Purgatory. You don’t believe in it for the very same reasons I didn’t believe in it. I don’t believe that Purgatory exists because the Cross was more than sufficient. I believe that Purgatory exists BECAUSE the cross was sufficient. You see, when God enters our hearts, a cleansing process begins…it’s happening to you…it’s happening to me. Our selfishness, our worldly attachments, our desire to sin…all of this is being cleansed by the once and for all sacrifice on the Cross two thousand years ago…a temporal event becomes one with our temporal lives in the realm of eternity…understand? In God all things are made new…we become a new creation in God, but in our earthly pilgrimage here on earth, we are being sanctified…and this process of sanctification…of cleansing…will not end before we die…otherwise it would contradict what John says about us being without sin (1 John). This finishing of the cleansing that has begun in us is what we call purgatory. It is not a second chance…it is not a middle place…it’s the beginning of Heaven…we are letting go of our attachments, and that can even hurt, but the joy of where we are going…where all tears will be wiped away and we will be in the presence of Him whose death and ressurection made this all possible…that is the Heaven we yearn…that is the Heaven we are preparing for…Purgatory end the preparation…that’s all.
Still dont’ understand? It’s okay my sister…we will all truly see one day…
P7

 

[Sabda]

deb, no… what she said to me, was that when the mass was in Latin, she could just sit there and not have to participate much more than parrotting the latin responses. She now had to give her responses in English, thus, more participation.

She also mentioned that she was tired of having to “participate” so much, that she already has ALL she needs to get to Heaven when she dies. She wears her holy medals, she has people praying when she is dead and all that. I’m sorry, but I just cannot subscribe to that.

It saddened me, to know that I received so much from my service that day, that I felt so much of God touching me! Then I met this lady and all she could do was complain about how long the preaching was.

I really must get to my oxygen now. I’m starting to wheeze.

Wow, wow, wow!!! Alright take a deep breath and CALM DOWN!!! Seriously, you are getting way to wound up about this and there is no real reason for it. Catholicism is extremely biblical. However, unless you know where in the Bible to find it your not going to see it. After all the Bible is a pretty big and deep book. First thing you need to do is find out what the Church really teaches. Not listen to what Harry and Tom have to say about it. I don’t know if you saw my post on the other thread but I’ll give you the link to the Catechism again. I will also give you the link to the Baltimore Catechism also. This is the catechism that predates Vatican II. I will kindly ask you to PLEASE read though these two books to find out what it is that we, as Catholics, REALLY DO BELIEVE. I have seen toooooo many times where someone says what they think we believe when it is NOT what we believe.

As far as Purgatory goes you have no clue of what a truly beautiful teaching you are throwing out the window. Purgatory shows us just how truly merciful God is. When I went though RCIA in order to be confirmed we had a couple there coming into the Church. The woman told us she thought the teaching on Purgatory was truly beautiful.

In order to understand Purgatory you have to be able to understand a few passages in Scripture. To start with here is the official teaching, relevant footnotes included, on Purgatory:

From the Catechism:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

Footnotes:

606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39: PL 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5G 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.

Now let’s go check out some Scripture passages, ok?

Continued …

 

[Michael_Howard]

I just started reading this thread, hoping it was on Purgatory. Sadly, it hasn’t. Before I try to help get it back on the subject, I need to add these two cents worth.

5 years ago, I was the person sleeping during the homily. Even though I never left early or arrived late, my mind was rarely totally there in Mass. BORING!!!

Then I noticed a woman sitting next to me with the biggest look of rapture on her face, all throughout the Mass. It was amazing. Now, I knew enough about the Bible to be able to relate this scenario - her ecstasy in the midst of my mental sleep. I remembered the woman hemorhaging who reached out and touched Jesus’ cloak. She was cured. Meanwhile, numerous other people touched Jesus with no effect. These people were me!!! Since then, I’ve become like that woman (in a spiritual sense). Like you, I can’t get enough of the Mass. My day is incomplete if I can’t make a daily Mass!!!

Beartaich, my point being, is that the Mass hasn’t changed. I have. Maybe it was not your fault, but you got nothing out of the Mass because you didn’t reach out to touch Christ’s cloak while He was in your presence. Shame on your Catechists!!! Shame on your teachers!!!

Whatever the reason, quit trying to judge all Catholics by your own shortcomings in the Mass. It’s the most beautiful thing on earth!!!

Now back to Purgatory…

Wow…beautifully put, this moved me, thank you:thumbsup:

 

[Sabda]

Continued…

Scripture passages to think about.

Revelation 21

27
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

As we can see from here it is very clear that NOTHING sinful can enter heaven. If we all are sinful then how can we enter heaven? There has to be some process between our last second on earth and when we get to heaven were we are completely cleansed of sin. What does your church call that process? We call it Purgatory.

Hebrews 12

22
No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
23
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, 6 and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,

How are the spirits of the just made perfect? If they are spirits then they are no longer alive on earth. Yet, the passage says the SPIRITS are MADE perfect. When does this happen?

1 Cor 3

10
6 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it,
11
for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
12
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13
the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work.
14
If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.

The word used in Greek for fire is pur, in many instances in the New Testament it refers to the holiness of God. So what this passage is saying is that the person’s work will be burned up but he will be saved and it will be through the holiness of God(fire). This is a process of purification. You can not stand in God’s holy presence with sin on you. You must be cleansed from it. What does your church teach in regards to this cleansing process? God is meticulous about everything. Look around you at the complexity of nature! It’s not simply a “poof” and it’s done. There is a process where everything works in harmony together. Purgatory is simply part of that process. Purgatory is not hell, it’s heaven. Don’t you want to feel the fire of God’s love? I know I do! :heaven:

After all doesn’t Scripture teach that God’s love is an all consuming fire?

Hope this gives you something to think about.