Purgatory, the final santification process from your sins...or your sinful nature?

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I actually answered your question in my last reply: “God said”: “ALL” my sins are paid in FULL, by faith in what Jesus did for me on the cross, 1 John 1:7. The payment was in Full, Romans 3:25. The word “propitiation” Greek version: hilasterion means FULL covering of our sins. God now see’s me as “saved completely”… Hebrews 7:25. So, how do you define “ALL” or COMPLETELY…?

But before this gets too layered, I didn’t see your response to my other earlier statements:
  1. Back to the original question: Where did God endorse Purgatory?
  2. Regarding Paul forgiving sin’s, I’m curious why you left out that we can go “directly to God” to have our sin’s forgiven… given, 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins & cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness”.
3. You didn’t address that using Maccabees to support your argument, when even Jerome, a Catholic scholar, stated that “Maccabees and the Apocrypha was not Canonical or has authority.”
  1. You didn’t address my answer after your statement: “You will find neither bible alone, nor saved by faith alone, nor once saved always saved”… then my answer: Romans 1:16: “The Gospel is the power of salvation”; Luke 7:50: “Your faith has saved you”… Romans 10:9-10 "Once you believe, you will be saved".
Extra credit question: 5. Which sins did Jesus die for… and how do you know?
 
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There are three parts to repentance: contrition, confession, and bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance (aka making satisfaction). Purgatory mostly has to do with the third part.

Sins are forgiven when the priest absolves you after you confess your sins with contrition. You are restored to the friendship of God. But, we still must bring forth fruits worthy of repentance as Scripture says–that is, we must attempt to “expiate” the temporal stain of our sin.

Here’s an analogy: if I steal a five dollar bill from you, I have sinned. I confess my sin with a contrite heart and am absolved by the priest. Am I now totally clean? No–I still have the ill-gotten five dollars in my wallet. I still carry with me that injustice–that stain from my sin. I can’t just say Jesus paid the price of that sin and pocket my ill-gotten gains. I need to get rid of those gains. What is the fruit worthy of my repentance for stealing? To give it back, or, if that is not possible, to give it as alms or make some other amends.

Every sin carries with it some kind of stain of injustice, even if intangible, including honor we should have given to God which we did not. Most priests assign prayer as a penance for this reason, since by it we give honor and love to God.

Penances assigned by the priest are not meant to make full satisfaction. We can and should do more ourselves through prayer, fasting, and almsgiving as the Scriptures demonstrate, especially during the penitential days and seasons of the Church (Fridays, Lent, etc.). Almsgiving is traditionally associated with sins against neighbor, fasting with sins against self, and prayer with sins against God (which all are).

God also can and often does send His own punishments (see e.g. Hebrews 12:4-11) which, if we bear them patiently, also expiate our sins.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church sums this all up:
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."84
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If we don’t make sufficient satisfaction in this life, but die in the friendship of God, the remaining expiation must be accomplished before entering Heaven. We can’t bring that injustice, those ill-gotten gains, with us. This final purification is what we call purgatory.

Finally, since we are all one Body and should bear each other’s burdens, as Jesus says, we can offer our prayers and penances in satisfaction for another’s sins. This is why we pray for the dead. The Church, through the power of binding and loosing, by virtue of the superabundant satisfactions of the whole body of Christ, can also remit some or all of the need to make satisfaction (this is called an indulgence).
 
  1. So what if there is no purgation process? What is it to you?
Really, what?

The only answer that will satisfy you is one that agrees with you. I would violate my conscience to do so. I’ve held your beliefs in the past and found them man-made, empty and dangerous.

You need to hear the truth. 2,000 year old truth. Truth that handed you the bible. Truth that properly interprets the bible. Truth that destroys the heresy which well-meaning by horribly wrong souls taught you. Truth that absolutely contradicts What Christ and the Apostles taught. Taught to you erroneously by those who prefer an easy, zero-cost faith. Faith that probably does not even baptize. IMO, they are in for one hell of a surprise.

I think your time would be far better spent:
  1. Studying the early Church as many Catholic converts have done.
  2. Understanding that 2 Peter 3:16 was written for someone. Why does it not apply to you? The entire bible applies to Catholics.
  3. Preaching even error to Mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses is better than the pseudo-Christ they have.
Until and unless you face the fact that your beliefs arose in either Germany or America and were NEVER a part of Christian history, you will never have the full truth.

As close to the end of my life as I am, arguing is the worst waste of time when those with opposing opinions are lead by error and ego rather than reason and intellect.

I’m out.

May God richly bless you on your journey toward the truth.
 
Thanks for sharing that… but were does God say that there’s a Purgatory, given all the Scripture that tells us all of our sins were paid for on the cross in full, and believing in Jesus, Justifies us in front of God. Let me know if you’d like to see that scripture. Thanks also for the reminder of Genesis 3:15… a sad moment…
 
Thanks for sharing that… Where does God support Purgatory… given man’s opinion is biased … even mine…
 
Thanks sharing that… Where does God say there is a Purgatory…?
 
Samuel2 said:
I personally believe that purgatory is the process of removing your sinful nature in order to enter heaven, not sins. Our sins have been taken away by the sacrifice of Christ of course but there is still our Sinful nature that we need to take care of. …
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Attachments to sins are removed in the purgatorial state. Human nature was wounded (weakened) by original sin.

Catechism
310 … But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. …

417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin”.

405 … Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

1472 … every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. …
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Thanks, In an effort to remove men’s opinion for a moment, where did God say there is a Purgatory…?
 
Thanks for that. I am still curious, due to several passages that conflict with Purgatory, where does God say that we go to Purgatory after we die…?
 
I’m not sure which of my posts you’re referring to now so I may be repeating myself, but God speaks via the Church, of course, whose members wrote the New Testament, noting that there were unwritten teachings that they we’re to hold onto and that not everything Jesus said and did was recorded. The Bible was never intended to be some sort of clear and exhaustive and systematic catechism. And the Church received, preserved, and proclaimed the gospel before a word of the NT was even written. And Scripture can be vague, seemingly contradicting itself sometimes too.
 
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The purpose of Purgatory is to get rid of our sinful nature. As the Scriptures say (hopefully someone can let me know the exact verse) “Nothing impure can enter Heaven”. When we go to confession and complete penance, with a sincere Act of Contrition, our sins are 100% forgiven, no strings attatched. People who sin more on Earth have a stronger sinful nature, and perhaps thus spent more time there, but since God and Heaven are outside human understandings of time and space, I don’t think we can put it into exact “human time”
 
BTW, Purgatory isn’t referenced directly in the Bible, but indirectly, and also logically. I can give you some verses if you want
 
Thanks for all of your post. And you covered some very good points.
My take away is that you feel the Catholic church is the conduit of God’s revelation. And we should believe in Purgatory because the Catholic church said so, with no evidence from God…? It sounds like a question of authority. Maybe the better question is, where did God give the Catholic church the “authority” to tell us there is a Purgatory…?
 
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Thanks for the reply,
Sure, feel free to send those verses. And in those passages, could you explain “how” it is you know they point to Purgatory? Thanks
 
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Christianapologist said:
Thanks for all of your post. And you covered some very good points.
My take away is that you feel the Catholic church is the conduit of God’s revelation. And we should believe in Purgatory because the Catholic church said so, with no evidence from God…? It sounds like a question of authority. Maybe the better question is, where did God give the Catholic church the “authority” to tell us there is a Purgatory…?
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Let me ask you a question. What other evidence do you have? For what possible reason, for example, have you decided that the bible speaks for God, as you apparently have?
 
Regarding your question: It’s actually not my opinion, but I’ll quote Thomas Aquinas, a Catholic Theologian: “The
author of Holy Scripture is God.” Specifically, he explained: “The
Holy Spirit decides by what terms spiritual things are to be signified in passages of Scripture.” (From Summa Theologica, HCM Catholic Exegesis).

So, back to my question: “where did God give the Catholic church the “authority” to
tell us there is a Purgatory”…?
 
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Next question, why would you necessarily trust the opinion of Aquinas on this matter, who, incidentally, also believed in the authority of the Church/magisterium. Ultimately the individual, you and I, discern for ourselves what/who is to be trusted and believed, and what/who is not. And that puts us right back to it: What other evidence do you have? For what possible reason, for example, have you decided that the bible speaks for God, as you apparently have?
 
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A “sinful nature” is itself, a sin. An actual sin must be expunged from the soul before Heaven can be obtained. A MORTAL SIN however, cannot be expunged and must be forgiven before you die (by a Priest, usually ). Many of us still don’t understand that Purgatory is not a ‘punishment’ for the soul, it allows the stain of sin on our souls to be removed before we can stand or exist in the presence of God. Yes, God is love and God is pure - a soul stained with any sins simply cannot exist in His presence. Even the Virgin Mary, had to have been born without Original Sin to be the mother of Jesus. This was called the Immaculate Conception.
Actually, Purgatory is a blessing from God! Without a way to rid our souls from the stain of sin, our souls could never be in the presence of God. And, that is what heaven really is.
 
I’ll enjoy answering any and all of your questions… but let’s revisit the question you’ve sidestepped first: “Where did God give the Catholic church the “authority” to
tell us there is a Purgatory”? … Specifically …
 
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