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fhansen
Guest
I’ve not side-stepped anything. If you can tell me where Scripture gets its authority, or, more precisely perhaps, where you get the authority to deem Scripture as being authoritative, then you’ll have the answer.
Purgatory, the final santification process from your sins...or your sinful nature?
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C
Christianapologist
Guest
First of all, I don’t have any authority. But Jesus and the Holy Spirit do:
Matthew 7:24-27 Jesus, “Everyone then who
hears these words of mine and does
them will be like a wise man who built
his house on the rock.
Matthew 22:29 - Jesus replied, "you are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God".
John 5:39-40 - Jesus said, "you search the Scriptures because you think that you have eternal life and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
John 7:38 - Jesus, “whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them”.
2 Peter 1:19-20 - “We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable and you will do well to pay attention to it. ~ Above all you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had it’s origin in the human will, but prophets, though humans spoke from God**.”**
2
Timothy 3:14–17 "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it* and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. "All "Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.*
Answer: Scripture gets it’s Authority from God.
Now, awaiting your answer to my question:****“Where did God give the Catholic church the “authority”
to tell us there is a Purgatory”…?
Matthew 7:24-27 Jesus, “Everyone then who
hears these words of mine and does
them will be like a wise man who built
his house on the rock.
Matthew 22:29 - Jesus replied, "you are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God".
John 5:39-40 - Jesus said, "you search the Scriptures because you think that you have eternal life and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
John 7:38 - Jesus, “whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them”.
2 Peter 1:19-20 - “We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable and you will do well to pay attention to it. ~ Above all you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had it’s origin in the human will, but prophets, though humans spoke from God**.”**
2
Timothy 3:14–17 "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it* and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. "All "Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.*
Answer: Scripture gets it’s Authority from God.
Now, awaiting your answer to my question:****“Where did God give the Catholic church the “authority”
to tell us there is a Purgatory”…?
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fhansen
Guest
Oh, ok. So how have your determined that those words are true?? Or that the CC has not gotten its authority from God? Every word in the bible was penned by men. Every teaching of the CC has also been received and transmitted via men.
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C
Christianapologist
Guest
Ok thanks… So, if we’re resting on the pen’s of men, then there is no foundation for Purgatory… finally answered…!
Final thought: If you don’t believe the quote’s from Jesus on the reliability of Scripture, then there is no foundation for truth… just a thought…
Praying for you…!
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fhansen
Guest
Ok. Thank you. But there will come a time when you look at this honestly and find that your opinion about the bible is just that, your personal opinion, right or wrong. Or about God, or about Jesus. You can have the same opinion about the authority of the Church-you can come to believe that she was established for the purpose of speaking for God, as she keeps and proclaims the gospel accurately. The alternative is a whole bunch of little popes, all interpreting the bible as they see fit and then infallibly (without admitting to it) proclaiming their particular take. Like the Reformers et al, and their offspring, which even includes the JWs, “reasoning” from Scripture as they do.
And I didn’t say that a doctrine had to rest on the pens of men but on the teachings of men, which were in existence before the NT was penned! And the NT, itself, tells us that not everything was penned-and yet the disciples were told to hold on to those unpenned teachings! So, where are they? Catholics and EO have a very good idea.
To put this another way, you have no more solid basis or grounds for believing that the bible reports the words of Jesus correctly than you do that the Church or any other entity or individual does. And the Church, BTW, assembled the writings into the canon that we have today.
And I didn’t say that a doctrine had to rest on the pens of men but on the teachings of men, which were in existence before the NT was penned! And the NT, itself, tells us that not everything was penned-and yet the disciples were told to hold on to those unpenned teachings! So, where are they? Catholics and EO have a very good idea.
To put this another way, you have no more solid basis or grounds for believing that the bible reports the words of Jesus correctly than you do that the Church or any other entity or individual does. And the Church, BTW, assembled the writings into the canon that we have today.
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Gorgias
Guest
There seems to be an echo in here.
Yet, you later modified your question to “where did God give the Catholic Church authority” to teach, which is a good question:
See Mt 16:19.
Did Jesus say “go forth and give people copies of the Bible”, or did He say “teach [all nations] to observe all that I have commanded you”? If the latter, then that’s Jesus’ commission to teach with authority what Jesus taught. You know… what the Church does!
And Jesus granted a proxy of that authority to the Church. Again – Mt 16:19.
Men who have been given authority by Jesus Himself. Yes – finally answered!
C
Christianapologist
Guest
Thanks… now consider…
The Hebrew’s rejected many OT books written by MEN as Canon, including
the Apocrypha… Why…?
The early church 3&4 century, especially the Council of Hippo, 393
AD, rejected many books written by MEN from being Canon… Why…?
All rejected books were written by MEN… So some books were accepted as
“Canon”, some were not, such as the Maccabees…
So why were books written by MEN rejected as Canon…?
The Hebrew’s rejected many OT books written by MEN as Canon, including
the Apocrypha… Why…?
The early church 3&4 century, especially the Council of Hippo, 393
AD, rejected many books written by MEN from being Canon… Why…?
All rejected books were written by MEN… So some books were accepted as
“Canon”, some were not, such as the Maccabees…
So why were books written by MEN rejected as Canon…?
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fhansen
Guest
They were all written by men. God gave the Church the guidance and authority to determine which are inspired and which are not. Otherwise we end up with a bunch of mavericks, rejecting the book of James at times, the apochrypha at others. The buck has to have a place to stop.
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C
Christianapologist
Guest
So why did the Hebrews reject the Apocrypha as Canon?
And did the Catholic church give us the Old Testament…?
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fhansen
Guest
God gave us the Old Testament, through the Jews and those who came before them. Christ’s Church has the authority to determine which books are worthy to be canon and which are not, what the OT should consist of and what it should not. The Church doesn’t take marching orders from anyone else. Christianity flows from Judaism but doesn’t submit to the authority of the Hebrews-which is why Christianity is different in many ways to begin with of course. Besides, there isn’t consensus on when the Hebrew canon was determined or finalized, but quite possibly well after Christ’s advent.
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Gorgias
Guest
Irrelevant, once we were under Christ’s New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant. Or… are you still under the Mosaic Covenant and the “seat of Moses”?
Better question: ecumenical councils endorsed the canon that we now enshrine as the Bible. Do you support factions that were later corrected by the Universal Church? Or are you a member of the Church Universal?
All books were written by men. The canon is comprised of books written by men and inspired by God. Are you the arbiter and judge of which are whih?
Because those who had the authority to “bind and loose” decided which books are canonical. Have you been given the authority to “bind and loose”?
C
Christianapologist
Guest
Well, although that is a good guess, the correct context of “Binding and Loosing” has to do with church discipline, not Canon selection…
But the question was, “WHY were books written by men rejected as Canon”…? or, maybe another way of saying it, what criteria was used to choose Canon books.? Hint: what criteria did the councils of Carthage in 397 & 419 use to choose the 66 book bible…? Or the Athanasius Canon…?
But the question was, “WHY were books written by men rejected as Canon”…? or, maybe another way of saying it, what criteria was used to choose Canon books.? Hint: what criteria did the councils of Carthage in 397 & 419 use to choose the 66 book bible…? Or the Athanasius Canon…?
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Gorgias
Guest
In Matthew 19, in which it’s applied to all apostles? Sure. In Matthew 16, in which Christ is speaking to Peter alone, in the context of the basis of the founding of the Church? Not. So. Much.
Accepted provenance, universal acceptance among Christian local Churches, use in liturgy, and adherence to universal Catholic doctrine. Next question?
C
Christianapologist
Guest
Well, again, “Binding and Loosing” in proper context, has to do with
church discipline, not Canon Scripture selection. I’m not sure how you made that
connection. There are several OT
references, where the Hebrew’s used the same phrase, none having to do with choosing the books of
Canon.
And to the “Why”, some books were rejected as Canon",
Such as Maccabees, you were close on one, but incorrect on the others.
According to the Church councils mentioned earlier, and the Athanasius
and Muritoriam Canon’s there were two:
supports this and shows that only 66 of many books (written by man, and
inspired by the Holy Spirit) were considered Canon by the church. No Apocrypha…
Side note, many years later, the Apocrypha scrolls were allowed to be
put along side the Canon scrolls, ONLY because of their “historical”
value… but rejected for canon because of their contradictions to Apostolic
teaching.
Regarding the Catholic church having influence then… even a cursory
reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not
have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. The last Apostle died roughly in 95AD (John)… You won’t find one Catholic dogma prior to
that…
Do you have more questions…?
church discipline, not Canon Scripture selection. I’m not sure how you made that
connection. There are several OT
references, where the Hebrew’s used the same phrase, none having to do with choosing the books of
Canon.
And to the “Why”, some books were rejected as Canon",
Such as Maccabees, you were close on one, but incorrect on the others.
According to the Church councils mentioned earlier, and the Athanasius
and Muritoriam Canon’s there were two:
- Apostolicity: it had to be
written by an Apostle, or reflect the teaching of the Apostles. 2. Antiquity, has the church historically
recognized the voice of God speaking in this writing (which then would have
been accepted by the churches).
supports this and shows that only 66 of many books (written by man, and
inspired by the Holy Spirit) were considered Canon by the church. No Apocrypha…
Side note, many years later, the Apocrypha scrolls were allowed to be
put along side the Canon scrolls, ONLY because of their “historical”
value… but rejected for canon because of their contradictions to Apostolic
teaching.
Regarding the Catholic church having influence then… even a cursory
reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not
have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. The last Apostle died roughly in 95AD (John)… You won’t find one Catholic dogma prior to
that…
Do you have more questions…?
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SeekerOfTruth7
Guest
You should start a new thread about this since is derailing the OP question. Thank you
Now to the OP question and your question on Biblical evidence of Purgatory.
First, why does there only need to be written evidence? Why not evidence through Tradition that has been passed on since the time of the Apostles? something to think about.
Second, 2 Maccabees 12, even if you don’t consider canonical still shows the mindset of 4th-3rd centry Jews and what they were believing as a historical document, and shows that they prayed for the dead so that God would forgive them of their sins even after they died, showing that sins can be forgiven after one dies. But we know Hell is eternal and one who goes to Hell can’t escape. And those in heaven have no sin left in them and are purified of their sins. So, there must be of neccesitity a middle place/state that the saved go to to be purified of their sins.
Third, Jesus talks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as not being able to forgiven in this world or the world to come, (name removed by moderator)lying that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come. Matt. 12:32
Fourth, Jesus talks about different beating for servants watchfulness for God in Luke 12:41-48 Here we see four outcomes. 1. The watchful servant gets his reward. 2.The servant who beats his manservants and thinks his master is delaying gets tossed in with the unfaithful in hell. So here are your two beliefs. But St. Luke goes further: the 3. know his master’s will but doesn’t make ready for it, he gets a severe beating. and the 4th didn’t know his master will, but beat his brothers, so he got a light beating. Now, where are these last two servants? Are they in Hell? Or somewhere else? For we know that there is not punishment in heaven, so they can’t be in heaven. Please Explain
Fifth, we have St. Paul at 1 Cor. 3:10-15 And here we have the passage that you said without explanation that the context does’t support our conclusion. Where is the evidence for that? And please tell me what it means and why your interpretation is authoritative? The Catholic understanding is that the foundation is Christ, therefore the one working here is a Christian, and then it goes through the different merits, gold, silver, hay, stubble, and so forth. We see that the persons works are being judged. But if their works burn up, they are still saved, but they will suffer loss, or as Jesus said, severe or light beatings. They will still be saved as St. Paul says. And their work will be examined on the day of the Lord, a term historically meaning the day of their death.
Now to the OP question and your question on Biblical evidence of Purgatory.
First, why does there only need to be written evidence? Why not evidence through Tradition that has been passed on since the time of the Apostles? something to think about.
Second, 2 Maccabees 12, even if you don’t consider canonical still shows the mindset of 4th-3rd centry Jews and what they were believing as a historical document, and shows that they prayed for the dead so that God would forgive them of their sins even after they died, showing that sins can be forgiven after one dies. But we know Hell is eternal and one who goes to Hell can’t escape. And those in heaven have no sin left in them and are purified of their sins. So, there must be of neccesitity a middle place/state that the saved go to to be purified of their sins.
Third, Jesus talks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as not being able to forgiven in this world or the world to come, (name removed by moderator)lying that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come. Matt. 12:32
Fourth, Jesus talks about different beating for servants watchfulness for God in Luke 12:41-48 Here we see four outcomes. 1. The watchful servant gets his reward. 2.The servant who beats his manservants and thinks his master is delaying gets tossed in with the unfaithful in hell. So here are your two beliefs. But St. Luke goes further: the 3. know his master’s will but doesn’t make ready for it, he gets a severe beating. and the 4th didn’t know his master will, but beat his brothers, so he got a light beating. Now, where are these last two servants? Are they in Hell? Or somewhere else? For we know that there is not punishment in heaven, so they can’t be in heaven. Please Explain
Fifth, we have St. Paul at 1 Cor. 3:10-15 And here we have the passage that you said without explanation that the context does’t support our conclusion. Where is the evidence for that? And please tell me what it means and why your interpretation is authoritative? The Catholic understanding is that the foundation is Christ, therefore the one working here is a Christian, and then it goes through the different merits, gold, silver, hay, stubble, and so forth. We see that the persons works are being judged. But if their works burn up, they are still saved, but they will suffer loss, or as Jesus said, severe or light beatings. They will still be saved as St. Paul says. And their work will be examined on the day of the Lord, a term historically meaning the day of their death.
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joecaro
Guest
The definition of Purgatory is certainly not restricted to the Catholic faith neither is Hell, nor Heaven. If you think about it, Purgatory is a place of preparation; a cleansing of our soul from sin(s) Unless our soul is pure and without any sin it cannot attain Heaven with God - who is himself, pure. There can be no trace of sin to enter heaven. How can there be? The Immaculate Conception is proof of this fact. Not only was the Virgin Mary pure in heart and soul, but to bear Jesus, her mother was made to conceive her with no trace of Original Sin!
You must realize, without the cleansing in what is called Purgatory, there would only be Heaven and Hell. ALL sin must be removed before the soul can attain Heaven.
You must realize, without the cleansing in what is called Purgatory, there would only be Heaven and Hell. ALL sin must be removed before the soul can attain Heaven.
O
OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
Where does God say Paul was an Apostle? Where does God say Gospels are true?
Where does God say Bible is infallible?
God speaks through people- even Bible was written by the people. They are called the Church. Church wrote the Bible… you can’t argue with Church over what Bible says. Paul says that Church is pillar and foundation of Truth- not that the Bible is.
You have shown we are indeed saved by faith. Catholics do not dispute that. Can you show that we are saved by faith ALONE? James says faith without works is dead (hence faith can die) and Lord Jesus Christ tells us to keep commandments to be saved…
About false doctrine of “once saved always saved” I suggest reading verse “he who endures to the end will be saved”.
www.biblestudytools.com
Where does God say Bible is infallible?
God speaks through people- even Bible was written by the people. They are called the Church. Church wrote the Bible… you can’t argue with Church over what Bible says. Paul says that Church is pillar and foundation of Truth- not that the Bible is.
You have shown we are indeed saved by faith. Catholics do not dispute that. Can you show that we are saved by faith ALONE? James says faith without works is dead (hence faith can die) and Lord Jesus Christ tells us to keep commandments to be saved…
About false doctrine of “once saved always saved” I suggest reading verse “he who endures to the end will be saved”.
Purgatory in the Bible - Scripture Verses and Meaning
What are the references to purgatory in the Bible? Purgatory is defined in Roman Catholic doctrine as a place or experience of suffering for the souls of sinners who are absolving their sins before going to heaven. Furthermore, entrance into Heaven demands this momentary suffering due to sins...
www.biblestudytools.com
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Gorgias
Guest
In the context of Mt 19, yes. But Mt 16, in the context of giving Peter the “keys to the kingdom”? Not so much.
Nice try. They’re in the Bible itself. See Acts 2:22-24. That’s Catholic dogma, right there, and it’s proclaimed by Peter (to whom was given authority, remember?) on Pentecost day.
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Walk-worthy
Guest
This is where I get frustrated with my fellow Catholics. There is no Biblical justification for Purgatory. In fact, the idea there is a provisional (or backup) step before a person can enter heaven is proof many of us Catholics can not work out in our minds what it means to be a “true” believer and to be saved.
Christ died for our sins - right? Christ opened the gates of eternity - right? To deny that His death is sufficient for the forgiveness of sins is a contradiction and in my view a very costly mistake. I know this is not Catholic teaching, but I had to work this out for myself!
The thief on the cross is a perfect example of my reasoning.
Christ died for our sins - right? Christ opened the gates of eternity - right? To deny that His death is sufficient for the forgiveness of sins is a contradiction and in my view a very costly mistake. I know this is not Catholic teaching, but I had to work this out for myself!
The thief on the cross is a perfect example of my reasoning.
C
Christianapologist
Guest
Starting a new thread is probably a good idea, but I’m not sure how to do that… I’m new to this…
Regarding your thoughts…
Regarding your thoughts…
- We are warned by the writers of the NT, to spot false teachers/doctrine, and that we were to follow the exact teachings of the Apostles. So, where did the Apostles teach Purgatory…? If you’d like to use 1 Cor 3… you may want to look at my #5 below.
- Regarding Maccabees… it’s wasn’t my opinion, it was a host of early 4th century church fathers (Augustine, Athanasius & Jerome and many more…) that threw out Maccabees… bottom line is: God’s Word cannot contradict. Maccabees does…
- Regarding “forgiveness in the age to come”. John, through the Holy Spirit wrote: 1 John 1:9: If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Or, Col 2:13; ~ He (Jesus) has forgiven us ALL our sins. I guess it come down to how you define “ALL”.
- To assume a “somewhere else” is an unfounded assumption. In the correct context of Luke 12, Luke explains the degree of punishment is commensurate with the
extent to which the unfaithful behavior was willful. Note that ignorance is
nonetheless no excuse (v. 48). That there will be varying degrees of punishment
in hell is taught in Matt. 10:15; 11:22, 24; Mark 6:11; Heb. 10:29. - Regarding 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, it refers to the time of the Judgment Seat of Christ
(see 2 Cor. 5:10). revealed by fire. The fire of God’s discerning
judgment (Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9; 1 Pet. 1:17, 18; Rev. 3:18). 2nd Corinthians 5:10 indicates that the wood, hay, and straw are “worthless” things
that don’t stand the test of judgment fire (see Col. 2:18). The context of 1 Cor 3 does not support or hint of a “temporary” state. Also, looking that the broader context, with the parallel passages that I’ve share confirms this.
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