Purgatory, the final santification process from your sins...or your sinful nature?

[SeekerOfTruth7]

Lastly, you never answered my question posed:

how do we know what was shared by the Apostles? And how do we know it is authoritative and inspired? Who decided that? And when?

Not that I am not surprised that you didn’t. Protestants really don’t have a satisfactory answer to this and they know it. But please try

And here is a quote from Augustine’s On Christian Doctrine in regards to what as the canon:

"Now the whole canon of Scripture on which we say this judgment is to be exercised, is contained in the following books:—Five books of Moses, that is, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; one book of Joshua the son of Nun; one of Judges; one short book called Ruth, which seems rather to belong to the beginning of Kings; next, four books of Kings, and two of Chronicles, these last not following one another, but running parallel, so to speak, and going over the same ground. The books now mentioned are history, which contains a connected narrative of the times, and follows the order of the events. There are other books which seem to follow no regular order, and are connected neither with the order of the preceding books nor with one another, such as Job, and Tobias, and Esther, and Judith, and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Ezra, which last look more like a sequel to the continuous regular history which terminates with the books of Kings and Chronicles. Next are the Prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David; and three books of Solomon, viz., Proverbs, Song of Songs, and Ecclesiastes. For two books, one called Wisdom and the other Ecclesiasticus, are ascribed to Solomon from a certain resemblance of style, but the most likely opinion is that they were written by Jesus the son of Sirach. Still they are to be reckoned among the prophetical books, since they have attained recognition as being authoritative. The remainder are the books which are strictly called the Prophets: twelve separate books of the prophets which are connected with one another, and having never been disjoined, are reckoned as one book; the names of these prophets are as follows:—Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; then there are the four greater prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel. The authority of the Old Testament is contained within the limits of these forty-four books. That of the New Testament, again, is contained within the following:—Four books of the Gospel, according to Matthew, according to Mark, according to Luke, according to John; fourteen epistles of the Apostle Paul—one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews: two of Peter; three of John; one of Jude; and one of James; one book of the Acts of the Apostles; and one of the Revelation of John.

 

[Christianapologist]

At last count, there were 57 Catholic heresies… we haven’t even gotten to “indulgences” yet…

Your thought: For the record, we just agreed that Catholic dogma is found
in Scripture. Glad we got there." You may want to reference Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. I guess appearance isn’t everything…

And still no proof that God declared there’s a purgatory… here was your proof:

**So, you defended Purgatory with:

1.   Scripture doesn't record

everything

1.   Scripture isn’t the rule

of faith.

1.   Question; where does

Jesus set Scripture as rule of faith

Hmmmmmm…

And again: Your question: “who created the canon of Scripture”. The Holy Spirit.

John
16: 13-14 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth

1 John 2:27
But you have
received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know

2
Peter 1:20–21 knowing this first of all,
that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will
of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy
Spirit

And for any other thoughts that the Catholic church some how created the bible: Here are the Council of Nicaea, Second Session (September
26, 787: The bishops wrote: “We follow, we receive (recipimos) , we admit the Bible is the Canon”. Authority was created and passed on by the Holy Spirit.

Your thoughts: “what
is the pillar and foundation of the truth? The Church” Well, Ephesians 2:19-20 has another opinion: **the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.

God, His Word, the Prophets and Apostles, came long before the concept of a Catholic Church…

Because you seem infatuated with this Magisterium, and because we know wolves come along in sheep’s clothing, where did God endorse a Magisterium…?

From your other email: Ahh, but as Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord,
Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of
my Father in heaven." Taking note that He didn’t say “the will of the Magisterium”…

Gummy bears…??? Rephrasing the question just for you… how do you know the “proxy” got Purgatory correct, given all the contradicting scripture, and adding one more: John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and
believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment,
but has passed from death to life.

So, how do you know the proxy agrees with Scripture…?

And reminder: Your defense of Purgatory: Anything more solid…?

1. Scripture doesn’t record everything.
2. Scripture isn’t the rule of faith. (By the way, how do you know that.)
3. Where does Jesus set Scripture as rule of faith
4. (I’m adding one) The Proxy said so…!

 

[Gorgias]

At last count, there were 57 Catholic heresies… we haven’t even gotten to “indulgences” yet…

By your count. I’m sure we won’t agree on them.

we just agreed that Catholic dogma is found
in Scripture. Glad we got there." You may want to reference Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. I guess appearance isn’t everything…

Dang. If you’re willing to throw out an expression of Scriptural dogma, simply on an ad hominem basis – because you don’t like the guys who are saying it – that’s telling, man! It might be time to shake the dust from my sandals…

And still no proof that God declared there’s a purgatory

Have a nice day, CA. It’s been explained to you time and again, and still, your only response is “where did God declare it”? Sealion much?
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Jesus set Scripture as rule of faith

Nope: Jesus said “go and preach to all nations”. He invested the Apostles with the mission and the authority to carry it out. You know – the Church led by Peter? He never said “go and give folks a book and let them interpret it themselves.”

And for any other thoughts that the Catholic church some how created the bible

The Church utilized its authority to declare the canon of Scripture.

Your thoughts: “what
is the pillar and foundation of the truth? The Church” Well, Ephesians 2:19-20 has another opinion: ** the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.

God, His Word, the Prophets and Apostles, came long before the concept of a Catholic Church…

God? Yep. Jesus? Yep. Prophets? Yep. Apostles? Umm… they only came three years before the institution of the Church. And it was Jesus who instituted it. Your “long before the concept” doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

And by the way… your quote helps prove my point. Does it include “the Bible” in its list of authorities? Nope. The Bible is a means to ministry, compiled and authorized by the apostles and their successors. So… nice try!

where did God endorse a Magisterium…?

How many times do I need to quote Mt 16 to you?

 

[Gorgias]

Ahh, but as Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord,
Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of
my Father in heaven." Taking note that He didn’t say “ the will of the Magisterium”…

Ahh, but Jesus did say “what you hold on earth will be held in heaven.” (“In heaven”, here, is a circumlocation, since the Jews didn’t mention the name of God. Jesus is literally saying that what the Church proclaims, God upholds. So… yes! Those who follow the Church Jesus founded are doing the will of his Father in heaven!)

how do you know the “proxy” got Purgatory correct, given all the contradicting scripture

Again: proxy of authority. And the “contradiction” isn’t asserted by them, but rather, by those who do not have authority.

So, how do you know the proxy agrees with Scripture…?

Obviously, you must be right. The guys who wrote the Gospels clearly didn’t believe in it. Seriously?

 

[Christianapologist]

So in summary of all your replies…

Your proof that God intended Purgatory:

Matthew 16:19 - God assigned Peter a proxy, to teach. Opinion only, and no substantive connection to a Purgatory.

Matthew 16:19 - Jesus granted authority to the church. Opinion only, and did not show how/if Peter is connected to the CC.

We’re resting on the pen’s of me (writing scripture). No substantive connection to a Purgatory.

Binding & Loosing give men power to reject bad scripture. Wrong context, binding/loosing is authority for church law.

Specific Catholic dogma is in Acts 2:22-24. This is doctrine of all Christian churches, including Lutheran & Protestant.

Scripture doesn’t record all of Apostolic teachings. Agreed, but no substance show the “missing” proof of Purgatory.
The Hebrew rejection of Maccabees is immaterial. Rejection was due to invented theology & contradictions to God’s Word.

The Magisterium is supported in Matt 16. Implied with opinion, but no substance of how or if that it true.

From Scripture:

Colossians 1:22 He has made you his friends again**.** He did this by the death Christ** suffered** so that he could present you to himself as people who are holy, blameless, and “without anything” that would make you guilty before him**. **No pugatory

1 John 1:7-9 ~~ the blood of
Jesus his Son cleanses us from ALL sin. ** **** **If we confess our sins, he is faithful
and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. No pugatory

Hebrews
7:25 Therefore He is able to savecompletely those who come to God through him**, because he always lives to intercede for
them. **No pugatory

**Hebrews
9:27 **And as it is appointed for men to die once, **but after this the judgment **No pugatory

1 Corinthians 5:3 For though absent in body, I am present with the Lord; No pugatory

Hebrews 10:18" Since these sins have been forgiven, there is no further offering for sin". No pugatory

Romans 5:9-11 Since we have now been justified by his blood**,** how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through
him! No pugatory

1 Peter 1:18-19 it was not with perishable
things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed, but with the precious blood of Christ. No pugatory

1 Peter 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth No pugatory

Luke
23:43 And he said to him (Thief on cross), “Truly,
I say to you, today you
will be with me in paradise." No pugatory

**John 19:30 **When Jesus had received the
sour wine, he said, “It
is finished,” ALL the work is done by Christ. No pugatory

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut on this topic… it’s time to dust off the sandals…

 

[Gorgias]

Matthew 16:19 - God assigned Peter a proxy, to teach. Opinion only, and no substantive connection to a Purgatory.

Hang on a second. What does “opinion only” mean, here? That it’s my opinion that Mt 16:19 establishes a proxy of authority?

And BTW, the fact that there’s “no substantive connection” to any given doctrine is irrelevant. There was “no substantive connection” to the doctrine of the Trinity – that came much later – but you believe in the Trinity, don’t you? And on what authority? Your own personal reading and interpretation of Scripture? No… that would come from conciliar decree!

Binding & Loosing give men power to reject bad scripture. Wrong context, binding/loosing is authority for church law.

By whose interpretation is it only “authority for church law”? And, who grants that authority to that person?

Specific Catholic dogma is in Acts 2:22-24. This is doctrine of all Christian churches, including Lutheran & Protestant.

“Lutheran and Protestant” doesn’t appear until the 16th century. At that point, it had already been the doctrine of the Catholic Church for 1500 years. You may agree with it or assent to it, but you can’t claim it as having been anything other than “the doctrine of the Catholic Church”.

Scripture doesn’t record all of Apostolic teachings. Agreed, but no substance show the “missing” proof of Purgatory.

Irrelevant, unless you’re claiming that no teaching is valid unless it appears in the Bible. And be careful… once you do that, the whole edifice of your denomination’s belief system will come crashing down.

Colossians 1:22 H e has made you his friends again . He did this by the death Christ ** suffered** so that he could present you to himself as people who are holy, blameless, and “without anything” that would make you guilty before him **. **No pugatory

You massively misunderstand Purgation, my friend. Purgation isn’t about removing the guilt that would otherwise condemn you. It’s all about making satisfaction for the sins that have already been forgiven and which make you, presently, imperfect. Remember – nothing unclean can enter heaven. Purgation is about cleansing those heading to heaven, not about forgiving those heading to hell.

Hebrews 10:18 " Since these sins have been forgiven, there is no further offering for sin ". No pugatory

Purgation isn’t a “sin offering”; it’s “paying the last penny”. You know that this is Scriptural, right?

(continued…)

 

[Gorgias]

(continuing…)

1 Peter 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth No pugatory

Ahh… now, finally, something we can sink our teeth into! OK: when you manage to fail to obey the truth… you’re no longer purified, right? How do you regain that pure state?

**John 19:30 **When Jesus had received the
sour wine, he said, “It
is finished ,” ALL the work is done by Christ. No pugatory

Then Paul was in error when he said that he’s " I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ"? Are you sure you want to make that claim about Scripture?

 

[Christianapologist]

Re: “That it’s my opinion that Mt 16:19 establishes a proxy of authority?”
Scripture has authority. Those who promote God’s Word have authority. Suggesting that it’s moved to an organization called the CC is an assumption, or an opinion. Unless you have relevant evidence…?

Re: “no substantive connection” to the doctrine of the Trinity”, that came much later. but you believe in the Trinity, don’t you? And on what authority?

The Scriptural background on the Trinity actually began in Genesis: Genesis 1:26 all 3, Genesis 1:2 the Spirit Psalm 33:6 Jesus and on & on… Both Paul and Peter tells us scripture is God’s Word… there’s the authority.

Re: "By whose interpretation is it only “authority for church law”? And, who grants that authority to that person?

Scripture interprets scripture. Parallel passages, word study, historical research and contextual relevance, without contradiction to the context of God’s Word, substantiates the author’s intent. Authority was answered above.

Re: "you can’t claim it as having been anything other than “the doctrine of the Catholic Church”.

Acts 2:22-24 was written to believers in the early church. If it was written to the Catholic church, what are your biblical references, and who was the Pope at the time…??

Re: “Irrelevant, unless you’re claiming that no teaching is valid unless it appears in the Bible.”

I agreed that Scripture doesn’t cover it all. And again, there’s no substance showing the “missing” proof of Purgatory.

Re: You massively misunderstand Purgation,

I don’t have to. A place called Purgatory doesn’t exist. I just have to understand God’s view of sanctification.

Re:“urgation isn’t a “sin offering”; it’s “paying the last penny”. You know that this is Scriptural, right?”

Same answer as above…

 

[Christianapologist]

Re: “when you manage to fail to obey the truth… you’re no longer purified, right? How do you regain that pure state?”
No, that’s not what Peter is saying… You may want to read the passages in front of 1 Peter1:22… or it’s context. And you may also want to read all the passages that describe God’s intent for Justification and Sanctification.

Re: John 19:30, “It is Finished” “Then Paul was in error when he said that he’s " I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ”?

Assuming you’re referring to Col 1:24, you’re trying to connect two different context. Christ “finished” the path for us to get to heaven. It did not remove us from our struggles in the world. “Lacking”, is Paul’s comparison between his afflictions and those that Christ went through, while Paul was still alive… (not in a place called purgatory) so, what did you think the connection was between the two passages…?? And what is your reference…?

 

[Gorgias]

Re: “That it’s my opinion that Mt 16:19 establishes a proxy of authority?”
Scripture has authority. Those who promote God’s Word have authority. Suggesting that it’s moved to an organization called the CC is an assumption, or an opinion. Unless you have relevant evidence…?

Historical evidence. Who declared the canon of Scripture to be Scripture? Do you have Scripture that declares the canon? Or did the Church declare it so?

The Scriptural background on the Trinity actually began in Genesis: Genesis 1:26 all 3, Genesis 1:2 the Spirit Psalm 33:6 Jesus and on & on…

That’s evidence, but not declaration as such. Who declared the doctrine of the Trinity, and on what authority did they do so?

Both Paul and Peter tells us scripture is God’s Word… there’s the authority.

I agree. Apostolic declaration is the authority that affirms Scriptural canon as such. Glad we agree.

Scripture interprets scripture.

Nice try. Where does Christ say that this is so, in Scripture?

Parallel passages, word study, historical research and contextual relevance, without contradiction to the context of God’s Word, substantiates the author’s intent.

So… “traditions of men”. Got it.

Acts 2:22-24 was written to believers in the early church. If it was written to the Catholic church, what are your biblical references, and who was the Pope at the time…??

“Believers in the early church” is the Church founded by Christ on the leadership of Peter. You know… the Catholic Church! And yes, Peter was the first pope.

Re: “Irrelevant, unless you’re claiming that no teaching is valid unless it appears in the Bible.”

I agreed that Scripture doesn’t cover it all. And again, there’s no substance showing the “missing” proof of Purgatory.

Other than apostolic authority. Which, above, you show that you implicitly assent to. It’s ok… we all know you do.

I don’t have to. A place called Purgatory doesn’t exist.

Not a place. Disembodied souls don’t possess the property of “location”. If you want to tilt at straw men, have at it. You’re railing against something that isn’t Catholic doctrine.

Same answer as above…

“Peter and Paul taught it”? Yes. I agree.

 

[Christianapologist]

Taking one at a time…

Re: “That it’s my opinion that Mt 16:19 establishes a proxy of authority?” Scripture has authority. Those who promote God’s Word have authority. Suggesting that it’s moved to an organization called the CC is an assumption, or an opinion. Unless you have relevant evidence…?

Historical evidence. This is what I mean by “no relevant substance”… So here’s your chance… please explain your "historical evidence in detail that the authority of God went to the CC.

 

[Gorgias]

Re: “That it’s my opinion that Mt 16:19 establishes a proxy of authority?” Scripture has authority.

Who gives the particular canon of books identified as “Scripture” authority? You keep evading that question. I get why you’re evading it… just admit to it.

 

[Christianapologist]

I have the answer already typed… you’ll see it after you stop evading my question.

So, again… where’s your “historical evidence” that authority was given to the CC…?

 

[Gorgias]

you’ll see it after you stop evading my question.

So, again… where’s your “historical evidence” that authority was given to the CC…?

LOL! Asked and answered: Mt 16:19. Keep asking, though, if you need a reminder! Have a nice evening!

 

[Christianapologist]

Matthew 16:19 is your “historical evidence” that authority was passed on to the Catholic church…???

OK, where did God say this was meant just for the Catholic church…??? It’s obviously not in the passage…

 

[Gorgias]

Matthew 16:19 is your “historical evidence” that authority was passed on to the Catholic church…???

Yup. Proxy of authority given from Jesus to Peter, to lead His Church. Which Church do you know of that has Petrine leadership and an apostolic framework?

OK, where did God say this was meant just for the Catholic church…??? It’s obviously not in the passage…

There was only one Church that Jesus founded. In a certain sense, when groups broke away from that Church, they knowingly left it behind. Christ didn’t start a multi-faceted ministry known as “Christianity”; he founded a single Church that was One, Holy, Catholic (i.e., universal) and Apostolic. So, although you and I are related by virtue of your baptism, there’s a distinct (and intended) rupture that was created by the Reformation… and then fractured further over the next 500 years.

 

[Christianapologist]

OK, we’re getting a little closer… And Scripture actually agreed with most of what you said, with exception of your “Petrine” suggestion…

The church of Jesus, was led by his Apostles and disciples from about 33AD to 95AD, who led God’s church with a plurality of leaders, and never mentions being led by one human male. Can you explain this, given the the Keys given to all the Apostles, leadership assignments by Paul, to Timothy and Titus and others, and James leading the church of Jerusalem… Paul’s leadership assignment came from God, not an organization of men… all believers are a priesthood… Jesus is our High Priest… Peter considers himself a “fellow Elder”… and closing with Acts 20:28-32, as Paul writes:"****Pay attention to yourselves and to the entire flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to be shepherds of God’s*church, which he acquired with his own blood. ~ **“I’m now entrusting you to God and to the message of his grace, which is able to build you up and secure for you an inheritance among all who are sanctified. *

Well, that was the appetizer, and nope, I didn’t see the Petrine, or a remote concept of it mentioned…

Still keeping, “Where did God pass on authority to a “Catholic” church?”, in the hip pocket…

 

[Gorgias]

The church of Jesus, was led by his Apostles and disciples from about 33AD to 95AD, who led God’s church with a plurality of leaders, and never mentions being led by one human male.

Never mentions it where? Certainly the Early Church Fathers talk about it! Or, do you discount the veracity of historical documents?

Can you explain this, given the the Keys given to all the Apostles, leadership assignments by Paul, to Timothy and Titus and others, and James leading the church of Jerusalem

James, Timothy, Titus, and others… were all named to their assignments by the apostles. In other words: having been given authority, the apostles clearly decided to pass on the authority given them, to those who would lead alongside and after them.

Paul is a good case, though: clearly, he went to Peter to seek Peter’s blessing of his apostolic ministry! Peter agreed, and Paul went forth. Paul makes very clear in his letters that what he does, he does with Peter’s assent and blessing.

Well, that was the appetizer, and nope, I didn’t see the Petrine, or a remote concept of it mentioned…

I know. All of us are myopic in one sense or another.

Still keeping, “Where did God pass on authority to a “Catholic” church?”, in the hip pocket…

I know. It’s difficult to abandon one’s sacred cows, even in the face of reason.

 

[Christianapologist]

The entire New Testament Scripture, never mentions, implies, hints at, or even jokes about a Petrine person, office, or proxy… as you like to say…

You may not want to bring in the early church fathers… historically, some of them promote Catholicism, i.e. Guido Terreni, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas Waldensis, but many take them to the shredder… Luther, Calvin, John Wycliffe, Charles Hodge, John Montgomery… etc…

Quote from Calvin: *“If the
teaching of the prophets and apostles is the foundation, this must have had
authority before the church began to exist…It
is utterly vain, then, to pretend that the power of judging Scripture so lies
with the church that its certainty depends upon churchly assent.*” **

Quote from Hodge: “If there are two standards of doctrine of equal authority, the one the
explanatory, and infallible interpreter of the other, it is of necessity the
interpretation that determines the faith of the people. Instead, therefore,
of our faith resting on the testimony of God as recorded in his Word, it rests
on what poor, fallible, often fanciful, prejudiced, benighted men, tell us is
the meaning of that Word. Man and
his authority take the place of God.”

Regarding: “having been given authority, the apostles clearly decided to pass on the authority given them, to those who would lead alongside and after them.”

Yep, agree with that… you’re just not showing the decisive connection to Catholicism…

Regarding: “Paul makes very clear in his letters that what he does, he does with Peter’s assent and blessing.” What passage…??

Don’t forget the passages that Peter is publicly rebuked by Jesus and Paul for being a hypocrite… and I didn’t even bring up Peter’s denial… 3X… yet…

If only we had something tangible from God that said; implied; suggested or hinted that He gave the Catholic church authority… or a Petrine office…

 

[Gorgias]

The entire New Testament Scripture, never mentions, implies, hints at, or even jokes about a Petrine person, office, or proxy

Peter is the one who stands up and speaks on Pentecost.

Peter’s testimony is the one that closes the debate at the Council of Jerusalem.

Peter is the one to whom Paul goes for approval / assent of his new mission.

“never implies, hints at”? Nah. Not even close.

You may not want to bring in the early church fathers…

I’m not suggesting that they are a magisterial source of teaching. I’m merely pointing out that they’re a source of historical information. And, they speak to Petrine primacy.

many take them to the shredder… Luther, Calvin, John Wycliffe, Charles Hodge, John Montgomery… etc…

You say that as if Catholics regard these as authoritative or even substantively accurate theologians…

Regarding: “Paul makes very clear in his letters that what he does, he does with Peter’s assent and blessing.” What passage…??

Galatians 1. Paul doesn’t go to an apostle to learn how to be an apostle. He doesn’t go to seek mediation or commissioning for his ministry. But, when he does go… to whom does he go? Peter. And stays a couple of weeks. (Not long enough to suppose that Peter is teaching him. So… why go? “Blessing of the Church for his divinely imposed ministry” makes sense. Unless you deny “Petrine primacy”, of course. )

Don’t forget the passages that Peter is publicly rebuked by Jesus and Paul for being a hypocrite

“Petrine primacy” doesn’t mean “Peter was perfect”. Your argument doesn’t work unless this is what the Church claims… and it doesn’t.

If only we had something tangible from God that said; implied; suggested or hinted that He gave the Catholic church authority… or a Petrine office…

Yep. Shame that you’re blind to Mt 16:19, which is where it’s stated plainly and clearly. “None are so blind”, as they say…