Purgatory, the final santification process from your sins...or your sinful nature?

[Christianapologist]

Thanks Joe,
If Purgatory is a place of cleansing of our soul, how would you reconcile, 1
John 1:9: If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our
sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Or, Col 2:13; ~ He (Jesus) has forgiven us
ALL our sins. I guess it come down to
how you define “ALL”, or explain “which sins” did Jesus die on the cross for…?

And I’m curious why you believe that Mary was without sin… given Mary explaining that she needed a savor: Luke 1:46-47, and Paul writing in Romans 3:23 that “ALL” have sinned. And another, in Luke 2: 21-24, Mary offers a sacrifice in accordance with Leviticus 12:8, that every Jewish mother is to make a “sin” offering, which starts at birth for 'all" of us, as David wrote in Psalms 51:5.

And you’re absolutely right, all sin must be removed before entering heaven… and here is how it was done:
Colossians
1:22 He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless
and above reproach before him.

1 John 1:7-9 But if we
walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another,
and **the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. ** If we say we have no sin, we deceive
ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

Romans 10:9-10 If you confess with your
mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the
dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and
with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

According to Paul and John, believing and following Jesus, cleanses me of ALL sin. Are they wrong…?

 

[Christianapologist]

Ok… Here’s Acts 2: 22-24: Men of Israel, hear
these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works
and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves
know, this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge
of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him
up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held
by it.

Where in this passage is “Catholic” dogma…? And what Catholic dogma specifically…?

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

We are warned by the writers of the NT, to spot false teachers/doctrine, and that we were to follow the exact teachings of the Apostles. So, where did the Apostles teach Purgatory…? If you’d like to use 1 Cor 3… you may want to look at my #5 below.

Jesus taught it in Luke 12 and Matthew 12 as I showed, the Apostles taught, and we know that from Apostolic Tradition. You didn’t answer my first point about not all of Christ and His Apostles teachings were written down but passed on orally to the disciples. Jesus didn’t give us a Bible when he came here, he left us with a Church and a hierarchy in the Apostles.

Regarding Maccabees

It is your opinion though. And Augustine considered Maccabees to be canonical, it’s in his canon. Jerome didn’t throw it out obviously. it was included in his Latin Vulgate. He submitted to the authority of the Church…as you should. The book of Maccabees has been considered canonical by the Church since the start, especially when one looks at the liturgy. Now, please answer 2 Maccabees 12?

Regarding “forgiveness in the age to come”.

You didn’t answer this. You are arguing a strawman. We believe all sins will be forgiven. Those in purgatory will be forgiven. They must be purified first. So, can sins be forgiven in the age to come as Jesus said, or do you disagree?

To assume a “somewhere else” is an unfounded assumption. In the correct context of Luke 12, Luke explains the degree of punishment is commensurate with the
extent to which the unfaithful behavior was willful. Note that ignorance is
nonetheless no excuse (v. 48). That there will be varying degrees of punishment
in hell is taught in Matt. 10:15; 11:22, 24; Mark 6:11; Heb. 10:29.

bad interpretation. Obviously all the servants are Christians, since they are servants of the master and not unfaithful. But the evil servant gets tossed with the unfaithful, i.e goes to hell. The other two though aren’t said as being tossed with the unfaithful, and since they are servants of the master and have faith, since their not unfaithful, they would go to heaven. But, Jesus says because of their actions they recieve a beating first, one severe and one light. That beating is purgation, punishment for venial sins, as St. John talks about in 1 John 5

2nd Corinthians 5:10 indicates that the wood, hay, and straw are “worthless” things
that don’t stand the test of judgment fire

Exactly! The person will be judged and if their works don’t stand the test they suffer loss. St. Paul says that they are still saved, but they suffer loss. Tell me, does that suffering happen in Heaven or somewhere else?

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

Lastly, what makes your view authoritative? I have had other Protestants debate over these passages and they have given different answers. What makes your better than theirs and more authoritative than theirs?

 

[joecaro]

Thanks Joe,
If Purgatory is a place of cleansing of our soul, how would you reconcile, 1
John 1:9: If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our
sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Or, Col 2:13; ~ He (Jesus) has forgiven us
ALL our sins. I guess it come down to
how you define “ALL”, or explain “which sins” did Jesus die on the cross for…

I am not a student of theology nor do I profess extensive knowledge in the field (which may be a good thing). Using your gospel quotes however, from John 1:9 is pretty self-evident: we confess our sins to a Jesus Apostle (Priest) under the sacrament of Reconciliation -and our sins (spoken and unspoken) are forgiven, if we truly try not to repeat them. The Priest would give us a penance to perform (which mostly entails saying several sincere prayers for forgiveness). Our sins that haven’t been committed, cannot be forgiven. Jesus did NOT save us from ALL SIN! His ultimate sacrifice as the Son of Man OPENED the loving relationship with GOD once again by the sacrificial forgiveness of Original Sin, dating back to Adam and Eve.

Yes, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (that are on our souls at that time) and will continue to cleanse us from sin -through the sacrament of confession. We cannot be forgiven for FUTURE sins that we will or might commit. God does not give us a free pass to sin for a period of time (like an annual ticket to Disneyland) The sacrifice that Jesus made has put us BACK in good standing with God, as long as we are sinless.
God loves us and wants us to be with Him when we leave the earth - it is however, OUR CHOICE to present our spiritual selves with unstained souls and be with Him - or stained past the point of possible redemption where we NEVER share Heaven (Hell) or sins that are forgiven us by the sacrament of reconciliation - which is Purgatory. We bring these choices on ourselves, they are not God’s punishment.

You also asked:
And I’m curious why you believe that Mary was without sin… given Mary explaining that she needed a savor: Luke 1:46-47, and Paul writing in Romans 3:23 that “ALL” have sinned. And another, in Luke 2: 21-24, Mary offers a sacrifice in accordance with Leviticus 12:8, that every Jewish mother is to make a “sin” offering, which starts at birth for 'all" of us, as David wrote in Psalms 51:5.

The Virgin Mary stated in Her Magnificat: “My spirit does rejoice in God my savior.”(what was there to save her from if she had grace always?)
To save this one woman from ever sinning was a great mercy from God. Sinless as she was -she was still a member of a fallen race, a race to which heaven was closed. Jesus’s redeeming act allowed her and all of mankind acceptance into Heaven. So, Jesus was her son - and also her Savior.

There is one book I read perhaps more than the Bible that I would like to suggest to you: “THEOLOGY FOR BEGINNERS” by F.J. Sheed. It was originally written in 1955 and has been re-issued many times and still available today. Available from Servant Books. It will answer many if not all of the excellent questions that you pose.

 

[Christianapologist]

To keep this from getting too convoluted, let’s narrow the approach… with four thoughts.

1. I didn’t see a response to number one, and the question within… “So,
   where did the Apostles teach Purgatory”…?
2. Why did the Hebrew Canon reject Maccabees…?
3. How do you know my Luke 12 is a bad interpretation… could you share references as I have?
4. Re: Jerome and Augustine actual quotes on Apocrypha

Augustine: From de Civit. Dei, Lib. xvii. c. 20. Therefore Augustine did not think that they
were all of the same account, credit, and authority*; and, consequently, is in
open opposition to the papists. All this is manifest. It makes to the same
purpose, that this same Augustine *concedes, that less reliance should be placed upon whatever is not found
in the canon of the Jews. He did include them for historical reasons. Interestingly, the only challenges to this come from Catholic sources…

Jerome: From Apocryphal
letter of Sultan Mehmed II to the Pope published by Nicolas Jorga. Series 4:
1453–1476 “As then the church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of
Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it
read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority
to doctrines of the church.”

 

[Christianapologist]

I’m thinking that you’re not reading my reply’s…

I’ve repeatedly sad, I have no authority… but I rest in the authority of Scripture, which which God gives to all who believe in what was shared by Himself and the Apostles… not man’s opinions, or variations of the original Gospel… I’m hoping I won’t have to repeat this again…

 

[Gorgias]

Ok… Here’s Acts 2: 22-24: Men of Israel, hear
these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works
and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves
know, this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge
of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him
up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held
by it.

Where in this passage is “Catholic” dogma…? And what Catholic dogma specifically…?

Jesus was crucified, died and rose again.

If that’s not the basis of Catholic dogma, I don’t know what is.

• I didn’t see a response to number one, and the question within… “So,
  where did the Apostles teach Purgatory”…?

Scripture doesn’t record all of Apostolic teaching. In fact, it’s a misunderstanding of what Scripture is to assume that Scripture is the rule of faith for Christians. If you want to ask “where is that in Scripture”, perhaps we might ask "where does Jesus set Scripture as the Rule of Faith for His Church?

• Why did the Hebrew Canon reject Maccabees…?

Immaterial. We don’t follow a Jewish magisterium, but rather, the magisterium of the Church Jesus founded.

• Re: Jerome and Augustine actual quotes on Apocrypha

St Jerome wasn’t part of the magisterium. Augustine was a single member of the magisterium. What matters is what the whole magisterium, in concert, teaches.

I’ve repeatedly sad, I have no authority… but I rest in the authority of Scripture, which which God gives to all who believe in what was shared by Himself and the Apostles…

Who created the canon of Scripture? With whom did authority rest, to do so?

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

1. Apostles taught Purgatory in the Scriptural references I gave and in Apostolic Tradition that has been passed down from them which includes Sacred Scripture.
2. I don’t care what the third century Jews chose as their canon. I care what the Church chose as its canon. And please don’t try and argue a Council of Jamnia, that is a myth.
3. It is a bad interpretation because it doesn’t interpret the passage in light of itself and others. You gave no reference so I’m not sure as to what you are meaning. Here is a sound interpretation of Luke 12 from a Theologian
4. Again not an issue. Please show me a Magisterial document that states Maccabees isn’t a canonical…oh wait, you can’t.

And you still haven’t answered my question about the age to come…wonder why…

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

No need. You have no authority. Thank you. So your interpretation of Scripture has no authority. Got it.

Question, how do we know what was shared by the Apostles? And how do we know it is authoritative and inspired? Who decided that? And when?

Thank you

 

[Christianapologist]

Thanks Joe,
I’m curious about your thought, “We cannot be forgiven for FUTURE sins that we will or might commit.” Given the passage I shared with you… (and there’s so many more), how do you know we can’t be forgiven future sins…? Does ALL not mean ALL…? And did Paul and John get it wrong?

So, to the marque question: where does God say there is a Purgatory…?

And on the same line, where did Jesus, or the Apostles ever say His earthly mother never sinned…?

Thanks for the book recommendation… I’ll look it up…

 

[Gorgias]

Thanks Joe,
I’m curious about your thought, “We cannot be forgiven for FUTURE sins that we will or might commit.” Given the passage I shared with you… (and there’s so many more), how do you know we can’t be forgiven future sins…?

If that were the case, then John 20:22 makes no sense. If all sins are forgiven, even before they’re committed, then why are the first post-resurrection words out of Jesus’ mouth to His apostles “whose sins you forgive are forgiven them”? Are you really saying that Jesus is the “lunatic” in C.S. Lewis’ question “liar, lunatic, or Lord”?

So, to the marque question: where does God say there is a Purgatory…?

Asked and answered. Many times over: God says it through His Church, to which Jesus gave the proxy to teach in His name.

And on the same line, where did Jesus, or the Apostles ever say His earthly mother never sinned…?

Where does the Bible say that “everything Jesus said and did is in the Bible”? (Oh, wait… it says exactly the opposite !)

 

[joecaro]

I know several that logic ALL SIN as you do.Much of the rationale used is based on other than the true meaning and context. Simply put, ALL SIN is forgiven (when it is a sin). Future sin (unless the sinner is actually planning a specific sin - of which shows intent, and cannot be absolved). I think what I am trying to say is how can you be forgiven for something you haven’t actually done yet? And, if you thought or were told that you are automatically forgiven for any sin you commit - what then, will prevent you from committing any sin you fancy? Do you think that God would accept such a loophole in His laws? ALL sins as you quote Paul and John, are ACTUAL sins that have been committed. You will be forgiven those sins. If you think about sinning -that is a sin in itself and you may (or may not) be forgiven for a “sinful thought about committing sin”." It makes little sense to think sins of the future are forgiven simply because you are “born again” in Jesus’s name. Actually, the term “born again”" simply means being baptized.
I don’t think that God ever mentions purgatory by name. But, I believe that you yourself mentioned that the Saints were brought from Hell after Jesus’s sacrifice releasing us from Original sin and allowing entrance into Heaven. These souls were actually in Purgatory awaiting their release. Souls in Hell, of course, would never be released then or now. The Church itself, I believe gave the neither region for souls, the name Purgatory. The same holds true for the Blessed Virgin. As far as I know (and I am probably wrong) Mary’s sinless existence was only mentioned by the Angel Gabriel when he announced that she would be the mother of Jesus and I believe when she herself, rose into heaven.

 

[Christianapologist]

**Jesus was crucified, died and rose again… Amen…! If only all of the Catholic belief’s
aligned with Jesus’s and the Apostles teachings… we probably wouldn’t be
communicating… wink…

**So, you defended Purgatory with:
Scripture doesn’t record everything
Scripture isn’t the rule of faith.
Question; where does Jesus set Scripture as rule
of faith

**The rejection of Maccabees from the Hebrew Canon, was due to it’s numerous
errors and invented theologies. Very relevant,
because God’s word doesn’t contradict…

**Your question: “who created the
canon of Scripture”…? “And who has the
authority to do so”? I am a little surprised by these questions: Answer: The Holy Spirit (see below)

From Peter himself: 2
Peter 1:20–21 knowing this first of
all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.
For no prophecy was ever produced by
the will of man, but **men spoke from God as they were carried along by
the Holy Spirit. **

From your question above: where
does Jesus set Scripture as rule of faith:

2 Timothy 3:16-17: All
Scripture is God breathed .

My question for you: If Scripture is God breathed, does it have authority…??

Happy Easter…!

 

[Christianapologist]

I’ll try to combine both of your emails.

Re: Purgatory in Scripture: whatever scripture you’d like to support it with, you haven’t shared how you knew the passage ( 1 Cor 3) meant that…

Re: your thought on “not caring about what the 3nd century Jew’s chose”. Apparently, Jesus, the Apostles and NT writers did… they referred to their writings (minus the apocrypha) over 1300 times…

Re: your thought that 1 John 1:9 was a bad interpretation… it wasn’t an interpretation… it was the exact language from Scripture… oopps…

Re: wanting proof that Maccabees wasn’t canon. Sharing for now the 2nd time…!!

Augustine: From de Civit. Dei, Lib. xvii. c. 20. Therefore Augustine did not think that they
were all of the same account, credit, and authority; and, consequently, is in
open opposition to the papists. All this is manifest. It makes to the same
purpose, that this same Augustine
concedes, that less reliance should be placed upon whatever is not found
in the canon of the Jews. He did
include them for historical reasons.
Interestingly, the only challenges to this come from Catholic sources.…

Jerome: From Apocryphal letter of Sultan Mehmed II to the
Pope published by Nicolas Jorga. Series 4: 1453–1476 “As then the church reads Judith, Tobit,
and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical
Scriptures, so let it read these two volumes for the edification of the people,
not to give authority to doctrines of the church.”

Re: Your thoughts on the age to come: “some sins can be forgiven in the age to
come. Matt. 12:32”. I’m guessing you think this is Purgatory… how do you know…?

Happy Easter…!

 

[Gorgias]

Jesus was crucified, died and rose again… Amen…! If only all of the Catholic belief’s
aligned with Jesus’s and the Apostles teachings…

They do.

For the record, we just agreed that Catholic dogma is found in Scripture. Glad we got there.

Christianapologist:

So, you defended Purgatory with

No… I answered your questions.

Christianapologist:

Your question: “who created the
canon of Scripture”…? “And who has the
authority to do so”? I am a little surprised by these questions: Answer: The Holy Spirit

Nope. I think you misunderstand the question. I didn’t ask “from whence the text of Scripture?”. I asked “who defined / created the canon of Scripture?” If your answer is “the Holy Spirit”, then I would like you to produce the verses of Scripture which identify what is Scripture and what is not. If you cannot, then you have to identify what authority did so. (And watch out, 'cause if you’re answer isn’t “The Church Christ founded”, then you’re going to reply in a way that says “umm… on my own authority?”)

And, of course, your appeal to 2 Peter 1 speaks to the text itself, not the definition of which texts!

Christianapologist:

From your question above: where
does Jesus set Scripture as rule of faith:

2 Timothy 3:16-17: All
Scripture is God breathed .

That doesn’t answer the question, either. True, that identifies that Scripture is inspired; but it doesn’t state that it’s the rule of faith. So… what is the pillar and foundation of the truth? The Church. (see 1 Tim 3:15).

Christianapologist:

My question for you: If Scripture is God breathed, does it have authority…??

And mine for you: who has the authority to teach and interpret Scripture? I can point to Mt 16 and demonstrate that it’s Peter and the Church he was divinely appointed to lead. Where is your authority to provide these interpretations coming from? And, if they proceed from 16th century theologians, aren’t you really just following the traditions of men in accepting their human interpretations?

Re: your thought on “not caring about what the 3nd century Jew’s chose”. Apparently, Jesus, the Apostles and NT writers did… they referred to their writings (minus the apocrypha) over 1300 times…

No… they never appealed to 3rd century Jews. They appealed to the Jews who wrote prior to the 1st century.

Re: wanting proof that Maccabees wasn’t canon. Sharing for now the 2nd time…!!

We saw it. And by the way, you know you’re not quoting Augustine, right? You’re quoting William Whitaker, a 19th century minister. Why is he your authority on the question of what’s canonical?

In any case, here’s something that’s being shared with you more than two times already, too: Augustine, on his own, isn’t the magisterium, and St Jerome isn’t a member of the magisterium at all. They have opinions, but when the magisterium speaks with one voice, that is what we listen to!

Christ is Risen!

 

[Christianapologist]

Regarding your thoughts on John 20:22-23: The context of that passage addresses the believer with certainty can also tell those who do not respond to
the message of God’s forgiveness through faith in Christ that their sins, as a
result, are not forgiven. Having all sins forgiven is the Mercy statement of Jesus… those who believe are saved, those who do not, are not… as Paul writes: 1 Corinthians 1:18 For
the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us
who are being saved it is the power of God.

Regarding you answer on Purgatory: “God says it through His Church, to which
Jesus gave the proxy to teach in His name”. OK, where did God give the instructions on Purgatory to the church…?

Yep, not everything is in the Bible… agreed. How did you get to a Purgatory from that…?

 

[Gorgias]

Regarding your thoughts on John 20:22-23: The context of that passage addresses the believer with certainty can also tell those who do not respond to
the message of God’s forgiveness through faith in Christ that their sins, as a
result, are not forgiven.

That’s a nice eisegesis, but that’s not what that passage is saying. It’s not saying “tell those who don’t believe in Christ that their sins aren’t forgiven”. Rather, it’s simply saying that those whose sins are forgiven by the apostles are thereby forgiven by Christ and those whose sins are not, are not forgiven by Christ. There’s nothing there about “those who do not respond to the message of God’s forgiveness” in that passage.

those who believe are saved, those who do not, are not… as Paul writes

Ahh, but as Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

Regarding you answer on Purgatory: “God says it through His Church, to which
Jesus gave the proxy to teach in His name”. OK, where did God give the instructions on Purgatory to the church…?

You understand what ‘proxy’ means, right? When you leave your children with a babysitter, and you tell them “listen to what the babysitter says!”, that means that you don’t have to provide an exhaustive list of everything she may say. Instead, you’ve given her a proxy of authority to act on your behalf. So, when she says “ya’ll may not eat 15 boxes of gummy bears!”, it’s not because she has a sheet of paper from you with “14 boxes of gummy bears each, please.” It’s because she has authority from you to do so. So… “where is that written by God” is precisely the wrong question.

Yep, not everything is in the Bible… agreed. How did you get to a Purgatory from that…?

Again: the apostles have authority to teach.

 

[Christianapologist]

In reference to: “Future sin (unless the sinner is actually planning a specific sin - of
which shows intent, and cannot be absolved).” How do you know that…?

Your thought: “how can you be forgiven for something you haven’t actually done yet?”

Your thought: “I know several that logic ALL SIN as you do.Much of the rationale used
is based on other than the true meaning and context.” And you didn’t share how you know that…?

Your thought: “Do you think that God would accept such a loophole in His laws?” No, His laws are perfect and it’s not a loophole. Maybe a message from Paul might help: 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the
message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who
are being saved it is the power of God. The sins that are forgiven, past, present and future are based on those who have faith in Christ (Rom 10:9-10).

Your thought: *"*Actually, the term “born again”"
simply means being baptized." One of the leading passages that supports the doctrine of being “Born Again” is what I just shared: Roman’s 10:9-10. As this passages begins to share, our path home begins with our profession that Jesus is Lord, and then the long journey of “Santification”. How do we know… read Romans 7:15. We still sin in our Santification, but we start getting stronger everyday and realize that the sin we commit, bears forgiveness, giving God the greater glory…!!! If God didn’t forgive ALL sins… He would be a liar… The word All in Greek: “πᾶς
pâs, pas; G3956, Meaning: each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,
everything.”

Your thoughts: "you yourself mentioned that the Saints were brought from Hell ". Sorry, that wasn’t me. From Scripture we know Upon death, the soul or spirit of the believer goes immediately to be with God. Believers are alive and conscious in this state. Though it is not their final reward, it is a place of rest, waiting, activity, and holiness. John 17:24; Luke 16:22-23, 2 Corinthians 5: 1-2,8 and more.

Your thought: “Mary’s sinless existence was only mentioned by the Angel Gabriel when he
announced that she would be the mother of Jesus”. Although it would have been a favored outcome, Mary, in accordance with Scripture, was a sinner, as all of us, and died like everyone else.

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

@Gorgias answered two your questions, and quite nicely at that. Again my question is posed: Show us a Magisterial document where the Magisterium has authoritatively rejected Maccabees?

I never said your interpretation of 1 John 1:9 was bad. Your moving the goal posts. I said your interpretation of Luke 12 was bad, which it is. Are the other two slave going to hell? Or are they going to Heaven according to the passage?

Purgatory in Scripture: whatever scripture you’d like to support it with, you haven’t shared how you knew the passage ( 1 Cor 3) meant that…

Re. Purgatory is in Scripture. I have proven it by my scriptural references. Now, if you don’t except that interpretation thats on you. But you still haven’t answered the passage. Just throwing a question at me doesn’t work. Here is the catechism: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P2N.HTM#$1BW
And here are Church Fathers: Purgatory — Church Fathers

So again, your supposed disagreements don’t work. You either move the goal posts or ask silly questions, showing the erroneous position you are in. It’s not easy being in the hot seat, especially when Catholics know what they are talking about. I would recommend prayer and fasting and praying specifically for God to remove the pride that simply stops you from accepting the Scriptural and Traditional truths.

God bless and Happy Easter