Purgatory-the risks of teaching it to new Catholics

[Reuben_J]

fhansen:

Both faith and the works mentioned in Eph 2 are gifts of grace-and gifts that we are expected to respond to, to “invest” as per the Parable of the Talents.
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48

BTW, the thief on the cross did just that, the best he could with what he was given. Had he been able to come down from his cross, with more time to act on his faith, more would’ve been expected of him.

Where is the good news in your “gospel”? Is grace a free gift given by a merciful God, or is it the beginning of an unending series of obligations, duties, and payments?

It is a free gift but we must repent. Until all the obligations, duties and payments, that need be, are all done. That is the action free gift will do on you. We need to repent. Only those who repent will enter the Kingdom of God.

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

As I’ve pointed out, if the sinful tendencies in us are a reflection of our will, then our will needs to be transformed somehow. Does purgatory transform our will, or does it leave our will unchanged? If purgatory leaves our will unchanged, and the sinful tendencies of the will are not eliminated by purgatory, then what would make you believe that purgatory does anything to anyone? What would be the difference then, if purgatory doesn’t even exist?

Remember, those who enter purgatory are already saved. They are just not perfect.

The purpose of purgatory is not to transform you - it is to purify you for the stain of sins which are not adequately repented of on earth.

God bless.

 

[nogames]

Remember, those who enter purgatory are already saved. They are just not perfect.

The purpose of purgatory is not to transform you - it is to purify you for the stain of sins which are not adequately repented of on earth.

God bless.

What does the blood of Jesus do for those who trust in Him? It forever purifies them from all sin. This is wonderful news! Here, in Hebrews 10:1-18, we are reminded of this very thing:

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

 

[Reuben_J]

V.14 a For by one sacrifice he made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

… No problem with that. Agree with it completely. How is it affecting purgatory?

 

[angel12]

As this thread develops, it seems that your original question was not asked in good faith, but just to start a discussion of purgatory so that you could bash Catholic teaching.

That’s very sad. We would have been happy to discuss it without deception.

 

[nogames]

V.14 a For by one sacrifice he made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

… No problem with that. Agree with it completely. How is it affecting purgatory?

I’m pointing out that the perfect one-time sacrifice of Jesus has forever cleansed and perfected those who trust in Him.

In 1 Thess. 4:17 we read, “Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.”

If there was a place in scripture that would certainly be appropriate to teach about purgatory, this is just such a passage. Why do you think purgatory is not taught or even mentioned in scripture?

 

[nogames]

As this thread develops, it seems that your original question was not asked in good faith, but just to start a discussion of purgatory so that you could bash Catholic teaching.

That’s very sad. We would have been happy to discuss it without deception.

Do I come across in my postings as someone who wants to bash the beliefs of Catholics, or as someone who sincerely wants to draw attention to what scripture says? Would you advise me to disregard scripture for the sake of promoting a teaching that is not found anywhere in God’s word?

 

[angel12]

Do I come across in my postings as someone who wants to bash the beliefs of Catholics, or as someone who sincerely wants to draw attention to what scripture says? Would you advise me to disregard scripture for the sake of promoting a teaching that is not found anywhere in God’s word?

I rest my case. You’ve been repeatedly shown scriptural references.

 

[nogames]

I rest my case. You’ve been repeatedly shown scriptural references.

Which post (or posts) are you referring to?

 

[Reuben_J]

You apparently did not see the meaning of my post, which supports purgatory. The saved is made perfect by the one sacrifice. Without the sacrifice, there would be no purgatory. Those who commit sins without repenting (sufficiently) will not be saved. Then there are those who commit venial sins. Where would they go, if not to hell, but scripture does not say that because not all sins will result in eternal damnation. They can’t go to heaven without perfection so they have to be perfected first (In purgstory).

The one sacrifice is good only if there is perfect repentance. Heaven is for those who are perfect.

Purgatory is taught in scripture. You have to see them,

God bless.

p/s I can only explain this much and with the other piosters’ explanation, I think they are sufficient for the knowledge on purgatory.

 

[nogames]

You apparently did not see the meaning of my post, which supports purgatory. The saved is made perfect by the one sacrifice. Without the sacrifice, there would be no purgatory. Those who commit sins without repenting (sufficiently) will not be saved. Then there are those who commit venial sins. Where would they go, if not to hell, but scripture does not say that because not all sins will result in eternal damnation. They can’t go to heaven without perfection so they have to be perfected first (In purgstory).

The one sacrifice is good only if there is perfect repentance. Heaven is for those who are perfect.

Purgatory is taught in scripture. You have to see them,

God bless.

p/s I can only explain this much and with the other piosters’ explanation, I think they are sufficient for the knowledge on purgatory.

Hi Reuben_J, I thank you for trying to provide proof of purgatory from scripture. The danger of trying to reason our way into a teaching that is not found in scripture, is that lots of heresies can be passed along to others as though they were from God. Think of what groups like the JW’s are doing. The JW’s deny that eternal damnation exists! If there is no hell, then no one really needs Jesus, do they? Do you see the danger of that?

 

[fhansen]

The blood purifies them- by actually purifying them! Even as this takes place over time. Time, as opposed to eternity, provides the very dimension we need within which to work out our salvation with He who works in us. This life is sort of a reprieve, in which humankind has the chance to change, to come to will and act rightly, to be justified with the grace Jesus won for us on the cross, with the reconciliation between man and God that he accomplished. That’s the meaning of the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:33: God does what man cannot do apart from Him: He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts. He, alone, can make man righteous, as he was always meant to be. God didn’t create us to sin after all. He wants not only to forgive sin, but to take it away, so that eventually we’ll ‘go, and sin no more’.

God wants to replace man’s so called righteousness, the “righteousness” that seeks to prove itself under the law, with authentic righteousness, available only under grace:
"…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." Phil 3:9-14

 

[Crocus]

The most challenging questions on CAF are from people insisting God should have made it easier for them, often to the point of insisting they should have been created without free will. They resist that God invites us to love, through cooperation in salvation.

Christians however, welcome this relationship, in which God revealed, reveals, and will reveal Himself. Christ was, is, and is to come. At the final judgement only two results remain: eternal life, or eternal damnation.

Matt 12: 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

This other age (to come) deals with what remains lacking after death (between the first and last judgements). We may refer to this as purgatory*.

 

[Crocus]

(Sin) is a lack of something. … all of us are born lacking what we need to live with God.

We cooperate in our salvation both during our life and after (*between the first and last judgements: purgatory).

Col 1: 24 I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.

What does the blood of Jesus do for those who trust in Him? It forever purifies them from all sin

We cooperate in our salvation by taking part in the process through assent and action and submission, both during our life and after (*between the first and last judgements: purgatory).

1 John 3: 3 And all who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

Heb 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The one sacrifice is present to all mankind in all ages. We cooperate with Jesus (who was, is, and is to come) by giving over ourselves to being made holy, now and “ in the age to come” (*that final purification between the first and last judgements: purgatory).

 

[Gorgias]

Although I’m not Catholic, and my understanding of Catholic teachings is not exactly advanced, I have come to wonder if the teaching of purgatory might be harmful, especially for new Catholics. What do you say?

I say “no, it’s not harmful.”

It’s simple:

• Are you perfect right now? Will you be perfect at the moment of your death?
• Will you be perfect in heaven? (The Bible says ‘yes’.)
• Well, then, something has to happen between the time you die and the time you enter heaven.

That ‘something’ is the purgation of your imperfections.

See? No harm, no foul.

 

[philipl]

If there is no purgatory, then it doesnt make a difference. Instead of going to purgatory you just go straight to heaven or if deserved to hell. Is it unpleasant? I like the idea of purgatory.

 

[anon64350612]

11 Descriptive and Clear Bible Passages About Purgatory| National Catholic Register

You are welcome “@nogames”

 

[anon64350612]

And while I am at it, I think I will look up that bible verse on Sola Scriptura. Oh yeah, there isn’t one.

 

[nogames]

You are welcome “@nogames”

Hi luciavento, I sure do thank you for trying. Instead of offering scripture that teaches purgatory, you have listed examples of individuals who “see descriptions” of it in scripture where none exist. Again, the danger of speculating our way into popular teachings that are found nowhere in scripture, is that heresies of every kind originate first as wild speculations, and then get passed on as though they were biblical truth.

 

[anon64350612]

Ahem. Purgatory is described in the bible as in the above referenced article. And by the way, where does it say “Trinity” in the bible - another word that all Christians just toss around as if it was true! It must not be a thing, because the bible never uses the word Trinity…

Still looking for that verse on Sola Scriptura though… Must be somewhere…