Purgatory-the risks of teaching it to new Catholics

[fhansen]

You can also hear God’s voice in the teachings of the Church He established for that very purpose, to teach His gospel, the Church whose members wrote the New Testament. It’s presumption on your part to maintain that all truths had to have been recorded in Scripture. Some form of final purification was taught by both the eastern and western churches since time immemorial. And God “honors” our sinful choices by allowing them, just as He did with Adam to begin with.

 

[nogames]

God “honors” our sinful choices by allowing them, just as He did with Adam to begin with.

It sounds like you are equating God’s “allowing” of sinful choices with the “honoring” of sinful choices. Was this intentional? BTW, I agree with you that God generally allows us to make sinful choices.

 

[nogames]

You can also hear God’s voice in the teachings of the Church He established for that very purpose, to teach His gospel, the Church whose members wrote the New Testament. It’s presumption on your part to maintain that all truths had to have been recorded in Scripture. Some form of final purification was taught by both the eastern and western churches since time immemorial.

Are you saying that the church never errs in any of its teachings?

 

[fhansen]

Yes, on matters of faith and morals, officially taught

 

[PetraG]

Although I’m not Catholic, and my understanding of Catholic teachings is not exactly advanced, I have come to wonder if the teaching of purgatory might be harmful, especially for new Catholics. What do you say?

Why would it be harmful? Does any of us really look at ourselves and imagine there is going to be no pain or deprivation in the process of becoming a saint? Why would we imagine that we will either be condemned to Hell or else magically transformed into a being we did not consent to become during our lifetimes?

Purgatory reminds us that even minor sin causes damage to the soul that needs to be put right before it is possible to be a saint. The pain that entails is punishment in the sense that it is a consequence but not in the sense that God has a vindictive need to be appeased. Justice has been appeased for our transgressions. The work and process of making our wilful and self-centered selves into saints wasn’t removed, though. That is what Purgatory is all about. The pains of those in Purgatory are difficult, but not something they would exchange for a transitory pleasure or act of self-will that took them one hair’s breath farther away from God.

 

[Crocus]

Does any of us really look at ourselves and imagine there is going to be no pain or deprivation in the process of becoming a saint? Why would we imagine that we will either be condemned to Hell or else magically transformed into a being we did not consent to become during our lifetimes?

Purgatory reminds us that even minor sin causes damage to the soul that needs to be put right before it is possible to be a saint.

Very well expressed. These thoughts particularly the bolded words are worthy of serious contemplation.

 

[vz71]

It sounds like you are equating God’s “allowing” of sinful choices with the “honoring” of sinful choices.

In this instance, honoring a decision is the same as allowing it.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

 

[fhansen]

God honors our freedom to choose.

 

[nogames]

nogames:

It sounds like you are equating God’s “allowing” of sinful choices with the “honoring” of sinful choices.

In this instance, honoring a decision is the same as allowing it.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Not at all. I’ll explain where I’m coming from here. Some Catholics believe that God wants everyone to be saved. Does God only offer the possibility to be saved from hell, or does God actually save certain people? If God actually does save certain people, why can’t He save everyone?

In conclusion

1. I’ve already proven from scripture, that the perfect sacrifice of Christ forever purifies all those who trust in Him.
2. Since (as it has been alleged here) purgatory has no power or effect which changes the individual’s will, the inevitable result is that whatever is “purged” from a person in purgatory cannot cleanse any sinful tendencies unless we sin without willing to sin, which is nonsensical. Even if it were possible to sin or have sinful tendencies that somehow exist independently of the will, people in heaven who have been let out of purgatory and are now in heaven would still have a sinful will…if purgatory (and God) must HONOR our will, rather than CHANGE our will. But it is obviously anti-scriptural to suggest that sinful people will end up in heaven.
3. The idea of purchasing an indulgence to get a loved one out of purgatory “early” is itself, proof that sinful people have sinful desires that are driven by a sinful will. If getting a loved one out of purgatory sooner than that person ought to be, how can that be a good thing to want?
4. There is absolutely no scripture that suggests any such place as purgatory, and there are numerous reasons why the whole notion of it is absurd, many of which I’ve just stated here.

 

[Gorgias]

nogames:

Where in scripture do we read about “the conditions for entry into purgation and into hell”? Where in scripture do we read about how “God will honor your decision to separate yourself from Him and you will spend eternity without Him (i.e., “in hell”)”.

Where in Scripture do we read “everything we ask, we’ll find in Scripture”? Where in Scripture do we read “Scripture is the sole source of teaching”?

Hmm… no response. @nogames, can I presume that this means that you are implicitly assenting that there isn’t such an assertion in Scripture?

 

[Gorgias]

I’ve already proven from scripture, that the perfect sacrifice of Christ forever purifies all those who trust in Him.

Sorry… I must’ve missed that proof. Would you mind pointing me to it?

Thanks!

Since (as it has been alleged here) purgatory has no power or effect which changes the individual’s will, the inevitable result is that whatever is “purged” from a person in purgatory cannot cleanse any sinful tendencies unless we sin without willing to sin, which is nonsensical.

That doesn’t follow. The person’s will has already been judged as worthy of heaven. No change of will is necessary. Moreover, what “sinful tendencies” do you suggest exist in heaven?

Finally, we can sin without willing to sin. That’s one of the definitions of ‘venial sin’: a grave sin which is not deliberately intended.

 

[nogames]

Sorry… I must’ve missed that proof. Would you mind pointing me to it?

Thanks!

Hebrews 10:14

 

[nogames]

That doesn’t follow. The person’s will has already been judged as worthy of heaven. No change of will is necessary. Moreover, what “sinful tendencies” do you suggest exist in heaven?

Finally, we can sin without willing to sin. That’s one of the definitions of ‘venial sin’: a grave sin which is not deliberately intended.

Who’s will has already been judged as worthy of heaven? Where did you get this information?

As to your “that doesn’t follow” comment, it is your doctrine (purgatory) that I was responding to. My view of heaven is very different BECAUSE I believe that no sin, or sinful tendencies exist in heaven. On the view of some Catholics here, God HONORS the sinful will of mankind, and He therefore cannot or will not do anything to CHANGE the sinful will. That, of course, means that purgatory will not (and cannot) solve the “sinful tendencies” problem.

 

[nogames]

Where in Scripture do we read “everything we ask, we’ll find in Scripture”? Where in Scripture do we read “Scripture is the sole source of teaching”?

I don’t think that these two things are found in scripture. Why do you ask?

 

[Gorgias]

nogames:

Hebrews 10:14

I’m not sure that this is saying what you want it to say. (I’m fairly certain that this is what your denomination has taught you it meant, but let’s take a closer look at it…)

μιᾷ γὰρ προσφορᾷ τετελείωκεν εἰς τὸ διηνεκὲς τοὺς ἁγιαζομένους

This line hinges, I would assert, on three concepts:

• τετελείωκεν (“he has perfected” – this is a verb in the perfect tense)
• εἰς τὸ διηνεκὲς (“continually” or “perpetually” or “for all time”)
• τοὺς ἁγιαζομένους (“those being sanctified” – the participle here is passive and is in the (continuous) present tense

When we see τετελείωκεν in the perfect tense, it means that the action of “perfecting” is complete, but that the effects continue to be felt. That makes sense – after all, Jesus’ self-sacrifice was a “once and for all” event.

The phrase εἰς τὸ διηνεκὲς is interesting. It’s only used in the Bible by the author of Hebrews, and three of the four times he uses it are found right here in chapter 10. What does it mean, though?

• In Heb 10:1, he uses it to describe the frequency of the sacrifices (“continually”).
• In Heb 10:12, we see it used to mean ‘forever’. There are three elements here: “having offered [a] sacrifice”, “forever”, and “sat down”. Which, then, does the prepositional phrase εἰς τὸ διηνεκὲς modify? Different translations give different interpretations. Some cling to the “having offered a sacrifice forever” interpretation, and others go with the “sat down at the right hand of God forever” tack. I guess the only question I have is, how can anyone offer a sacrifice in perpetuity? I mean, the effects can last forever, but the sacrifice itself? (I thought that’s what some Christians take offense to WRT Catholics: the misunderstanding that we’re re-crucifying Christ at each Mass!)
• Finally, in Heb 10:14, we see εἰς τὸ διηνεκὲς once again. And, yet again, we have to ask the question: does “continually” modify “he has perfected” or “those being sanctified”? (It’s important to note that the construction is “[those] are being sanctified”, as a present participle, and not simply “[those who] are sanctified”, as a predicate nominative.

If “continually” refers to “he has perfected”, then it speaks to the duration of Christ’s effects of perfecting. That makes sense – the effects of Christ’s work are eternal!

If, on the other hand, “continually” refers to “those [who are] being sanctified”, then we’re talking about a process, and not a simple state of being! This isn’t a claim for “once saved always saved”!

So, I’m sure that, in your tradition, you’ve learned that Christ’s sacrifice forever purifies each person being sanctified. However, the construction of the Greek in Hebrews 10:14 doesn’t point to that kind of interpretation…

 

[Gorgias]

I don’t think that these two things are found in scripture. Why do you ask?

Because you asked me to point to the place in Scripture where I find purgatory. If Scripture itself doesn’t make that claim, then we can’t make that demand of each other! Rather, since Jesus directed the apostles to “teach [all nations] all that I have commanded you,” we would expect that Apostolic Teaching is what Jesus had in mind. And, as it turns out, that’s precisely where we find purgation being taught!

Who’s will has already been judged as worthy of heaven? Where did you get this information?

The Apostolic Teaching of the Church tells us that, “[e]ach man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven – through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.” … “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.” … “Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God.” (CCC 1022, 1030, 1035)

 

[nogames]

If “continually” refers to “he has perfected”, then it speaks to the duration of Christ’s effects of perfecting. That makes sense – the effects of Christ’s work are eternal!

If, on the other hand, “continually” refers to “those [who are] being sanctified”, then we’re talking about a process, and not a simple state of being! This isn’t a claim for “once saved always saved”!

So, I’m sure that, in your tradition, you’ve learned that Christ’s sacrifice forever purifies each person being sanctified. However, the construction of the Greek in Hebrews 10:14 doesn’t point to that kind of interpretation…

Hi Gorgias, thanks for posting that. If you read it in context from verse 1-18, I believe that the message is clearly NOT telling us that the perfect sacrifice of Christ purifies as a “process”. You will find the writer contrasting the old covenant (a truly repetitive PROCESS) with the new covenant, which is perfect and complete in its effects, and therefore perfects those for whom it is intended without the repetitive process of the old one.

 

[StarMapp]

All who enter heaven will be overwhelmingly happy if that is an adequate expression in this context. They will be present at the Father’s table, and “eyes have not seen, and ears have not heard” what rewards are destined for the elect. But Doctrine states that some will experience degrees of beatification dependent on the life that the individual had chosen. Council of Florence teaches, they will “see clearly the one and Triune God Himself, just as He is, yet according to the diversity of merits, one more perfectly than another.” And in Romans 2,6, says that "God will render to every man according to his works.”

 

[vz71]

. You will find the writer contrasting the old covenant (a truly repetitive PROCESS) with the new covenant, which is perfect and complete in its effects, and therefore perfects those for whom it is intended without the repetitive process of the old one

Indeed the Eucharist we partake in at Mass is the same one that was presided over by Christ at the last supper.
Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity are all the same.

No one is repeating anything, we are partaking in the same sacrifice.

 

[nogames]

nogames:

. You will find the writer contrasting the old covenant (a truly repetitive PROCESS) with the new covenant, which is perfect and complete in its effects, and therefore perfects those for whom it is intended without the repetitive process of the old one

Indeed the Eucharist we partake in at Mass is the same one that was presided over by Christ at the last supper.
Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity are all the same.

No one is repeating anything, we are partaking in the same sacrifice.

I wasn’t referring to the Eucharist in the passage from Hebrews 10, but it would certainly be a great topic for a new discussion in the future. Thanks!