Purgatory-the risks of teaching it to new Catholics

[ReadTheBible]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I can show more examples. The bible is extremely specific and clear on the subject of death and what happens when you die. When a person dies they are basically in a sleep state. It makes perfect sense as well. When you wake up in the morning do you remember the actual time you were asleep? Of course not. The dead won’t remember being asleep either. They will be awoken for judgment.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

 

[anon65111186]

What happens in this situation according to the Bible? -

Lady A is a Christian and devout follower of Christ.
She commits a sin like telling a lie about whether she revealed a secret to another person or not (may not merit hell, but nonetheless is against God’s will, against her conscience and reason)
She dies a moment later from a heart attack.
She goes to heaven because she believed in God and was born again in “water and the Holy Spirit” in baptism

What happened to that sin in her soul? How did it get purified?

How does anyone with attachment to sin or minor sins on their soul enter heaven? When does the purification happen? You can’t be in heaven before you are purified, so the purification doesn’t happen in heaven.

What do you think the Bible tells us about that?

 

[ReadTheBible]

You are asking me a question with assumptions attached.

Surely you know John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I, nor any other mortal can cast judgement on your Lady A.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

This “purification” of the soul before entering heaven isn’t biblical. Read 1 Corinthians chapter 15.42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Once raised into our spiritual body judgement will take place.

 

[steve-b]

Surely you know there is no purgatory in the bible.

I just showed you where it is IN THE BIBLE

ReadTheBible:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

That does absolutely nothing to support purgatory or distort the truth that purgatory is a made up place by the papacy.

Why would God not want any believer to not do good works? You think because God wants us to not only believe and be born again, but he also wants us to do good somehow equates that after we die we are to suffer even if our names are written in the book of life? That is utterly absurd.

I just showed you where your theology is wrong. You can’t justify your argument.

ReadTheBible:

The entire reason purgatory was invented is money. It always goes back to money. Give the papacy your money and your dead loved ones can get out of their constant torture in an imaginary place. It’s nonsense, and is in violation with the word of God.

Nice try. Purgatory was there from the beginning.
People who die in mortal sin however, don’t go to purgatory they go straight to hell.

Ever see the consequences for one who is deliberately separated from Our Lord’s Church and won’t change?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

“Guess what? The day you die is judgement Day. You will know exactly where you will be spending eternity on the Day you die because this life is over, and eternity begins on that day…”

ReadTheBible:

Not according to the bible.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Job14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Jesus plainly says the dead are in a state of sleep even to his disciples.

John 11: 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

good grief!!!

Can I ask, what Protestant sect (by name) do you belong to?

Re: Lazarus and the next life, even for OT people

Also

The Transfiguration of Jesus. Moses and Elijah were obviously in spirit NOT asleep and in the ground. They were there talking with Jesus, and it was soooo real, Peter was ready to make 3 booths for Jesus Moses and Elijah. Oh and let’s not miss, God the Father is also there, telling Moses and Elijah (representing the law and the prophets) i.e. the entire OT, that they in their day were pointing to Jesus.

 

[anon65111186]

Surely you know John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This “purification” of the soul before entering heaven isn’t biblical.

So people not purified , unpure, unclean, not washed from the stain of sin can enter heaven?

Like in my example, supposing she objectively sinned (in God’s eyes, not in a subjective human judgement) and was not pure from sin when she died.

What do you make of Revelation 21:27 “But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false” then?

Isiah 35 “The unclean will not journey on it”

Do you believe there is sin in heaven?

This “purification” of the soul before entering heaven isn’t biblical. Read 1 Corinthians chapter 15.42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So you die a sinner and wake up a Saint? So the time in between when you die and when you are raised incorruptible is when you are cleansed from corruption aka made pure?

There is still a change in states: corrupt → incorrupt How does that happen?

 

[ReadTheBible]

I can only put so much data in each reply.

I do not belong to any church denomination. Is this a requirement to understanding God’s word?

The transfiguration was shown to the disciples as a lesson as to who Jesus actually was to solidify and strengthen their faith. Moses represents the law and Elias represents the prophets. Both the law and the prophets point to Jesus - see Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

The entire transfiguration scene fulfills Jesus’s own words just before he spoke about it to the disciples. See Matthew 1628 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

This verse isn’t included in Mark chapter 8 but it’s the same time period. It comes right after Jesus scolds Peter. The very next chapter Mark 9 Jesus takes Peter, and James, and John into the mountain where they see the transfiguration. It’s the fulfillment of Jesus’ words with respect to the disciples seeing the kingdom of God coming with power in their lifetime.

What did Jesus tell his disciples about the transfiguration? Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

You can further understand exactly what the word “vision” means by looking at the New Testament occurrences of the Greek word. This Greek word is όραμα.

For proof that this word “vision” or όραμα means look at the uses of the word in the New Testament. Acts 10:17, & 10:19. This isn’t hard to understand. Neither Moses nor Elias were physically with Jesus during the transfiguration.

 

[Fauken]

I do not belong to any church denomination. Is this a requirement to understanding God’s word?

Relax. They’re trying to figure out your background so they have a better idea of what exactly you believe in to better explain purgatory. It makes it easier to understand why, for example, someone may object to the Catholic understanding of works when that person mentions they’re a Confessional Lutheran, since their understanding of justification is different.

 

[ReadTheBible]

But the question of my background is of no consequence. I haven’t replied to anything in the name of “x”. Person A has a doctorate of medicine. Person B has a 4th grade education. Person C hands you 20 tomatoes. Person A tells you that you actually have 20,000 tomatoes because there are seeds in each tomato. Person B tells you that you only have 20. How many tomatoes can you eat and which person is correct? The truth supersedes backgrounds, titles, or other. I’m relaxed. I just don’t see the benefit either way when discussing facts.

 

[steve-b]

You are asking me a question with assumptions attached.

Surely you know John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Believe is a huge word. To believe is to say “Amen” to ALL of God’s words, promises and commandments; to entrust oneself completely to him

1. If one is NOT in the Church He established on Peter and those in union with him can they say they believe? NO
2. in extension then, is one obedient to the faith Jesus and His apostles preached? NO
3. Jesus commands perfect unity. Is that soul who is divided, following Jesus “perfect unity” commandment? NO
4. If one doesn’t receive every Sunday as required in scripture, His real presence in the Eucharist, can they say they are following Jesus Will for them? NO

What are the consequences to the one who is willfully divided from His Church?

ReadTheBible:

This “purification” of the soul before entering heaven isn’t biblical. Read 1 Corinthians chapter 15.42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Soul and body separate at death. The body is mortal. It lives it dies. Not so for the soul. Once created by God, the soul is immortal. It can’t die. Grace in the soul can die but not the soul itself. If sanctifying grace is dead in the soul, due to unrepentant mortal sin, that soul goes to hell immediately after death. Someday, only God knows the date and the time, the resurrection occurs. Body and soul are then reunited. If the soul was in heaven, then body and soul are now in heaven. If the soul was in hell, then body and soul are in hell. Since there will be no more births and deaths, Purgatory ceases to exist.

4 min answer, Soul sleep doesn’t exist.

ReadTheBible:

Once raised into our spiritual body judgement will take place.

Judgement takes place when every person dies. There is no waiting till the end of time, for a soul to find out where they will be spending eternity.

 

[ReadTheBible]

Believe is a huge word. To believe is to say “Amen” to ALL of God’s words, promises and commandments; to entrust oneself completely to him

If one is NOT in the Church He established on Peter and those in union with him can they say they believe? NO
in extension then, is one obedient to the faith Jesus and His apostles preached? NO
Jesus commands perfect unity. Is that soul who is divided, following Jesus “perfect unity” commandment? NO
If one doesn’t receive every Sunday as required in scripture, His real presence in the Eucharist, can they say they are following Jesus Will for them? NO

What are the consequences to the one who is willfully divided from His Church?

Soul and body separate at death. The body is mortal. It lives it dies. Not so for the soul. Once created by God, the soul is immortal. It can’t die. Grace in the soul can die but not the soul itself. If sanctifying grace is dead in the soul, due to unrepentant mortal sin, that soul goes to hell immediately after death. Someday, only God knows the date and the time, the resurrection occurs. Body and soul are then reunited. If the soul was in heaven, then body and soul are now in heaven. If the soul was in hell, then body and soul are in hell. Since there will be no more births and deaths, Purgatory ceases to exist.

Judgement takes place when every person dies. There is no waiting till the end of time, for a soul to find out where they will be spending eternity.

You are using the Catholic dogmas as your evidence. That isn’t biblical.There is overwhelming evidence in the bible showing when a human dies they indeed sleep.

 

[steve-b]

I can only put so much data in each reply.

I do not belong to any church denomination. Is this a requirement to understanding God’s word?

I was just asking what your affiliation is.

ReadTheBible:

The transfiguration was shown to the disciples as a lesson as to who Jesus actually was to solidify and strengthen their faith. Moses represents the law and Elias represents the prophets. Both the law and the prophets point to Jesus - see Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

The entire transfiguration scene fulfills Jesus’s own words just before he spoke about it to the disciples. See Matthew 1628 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

This verse isn’t included in Mark chapter 8 but it’s the same time period. It comes right after Jesus scolds Peter. The very next chapter Mark 9 Jesus takes Peter, and James, and John into the mountain where they see the transfiguration. It’s the fulfillment of Jesus’ words with respect to the disciples seeing the kingdom of God coming with power in their lifetime.

What did Jesus tell his disciples about the transfiguration? Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

You can further understand exactly what the word “vision” means by looking at the New Testament occurrences of the Greek word. This Greek word is όραμα.

For proof that this word “vision” or όραμα means look at the uses of the word in the New Testament. Acts 10:17, & 10:19. This isn’t hard to understand. Neither Moses nor Elias were physically with Jesus during the transfiguration.

Proof positive that even when you’re shown the truth your will, is not to see it.

 

[ReadTheBible]

Proof positive that even when you’re shown the truth your will, is not to see it.

The only thing you are showing me is you believe the Catholic dogmas over biblical scripture.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Believe is a huge word. To believe is to say “Amen” to ALL of God’s words, promises and commandments; to entrust oneself completely to him

If one is NOT in the Church He established on Peter and those in union with him can they say they believe? NO
in extension then, is one obedient to the faith Jesus and His apostles preached? NO
Jesus commands perfect unity. Is that soul who is divided, following Jesus “perfect unity” commandment? NO
If one doesn’t receive every Sunday as required in scripture, His real presence in the Eucharist, can they say they are following Jesus Will for them? NO

What are the consequences to the one who is willfully divided from His Church?

Soul and body separate at death. The body is mortal. It lives it dies. Not so for the soul. Once created by God, the soul is immortal. It can’t die. Grace in the soul can die but not the soul itself. If sanctifying grace is dead in the soul, due to unrepentant mortal sin, that soul goes to hell immediately after death. Someday, only God knows the date and the time, the resurrection occurs. Body and soul are then reunited. If the soul was in heaven, then body and soul are now in heaven. If the soul was in hell, then body and soul are in hell. Since there will be no more births and deaths, Purgatory ceases to exist.

Judgement takes place when every person dies. There is no waiting till the end of time, for a soul to find out where they will be spending eternity.

You are using the Catholic dogmas as your evidence. That isn’t biblical.There is overwhelming evidence in the bible showing when a human dies they indeed sleep.

Re: Catholic dogma not being biblical, I’ll get to that at a later time

are you perhaps 7th Day Adventist?

There is overwhelming evidence, Post 189 that those, one may THINK are sleeping, because that’s what it looks like they’re doing, are in fact alive, in spirit, with memory intellect and will fully operational.

1. The rich man died in the flesh, and in the next life was in torment. And he’s communicating with Lazarus and Abraham who are in comfort pleading with them to give him just a bit of water to cool his tongue…
2. Lazarus died, and in the next life was in comfort with Abraham
3. Abraham who had died looooong before Lazarus, and the rich man had died, was and has been in comfort.

The conversation all three were in, post death of their body, shows all 3 aren’t asleep spiritually. Their memory intellect and will are fully functional in spirit form. It also shows our spirit is recognizable even without a body.

And let’s not forget who is telling the story. The one can’t lie, can’t deceive, the one who judges EVERYONE … Jesus

 

[ReadTheBible]

1st John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, **and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.**8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Notice we are cleansed from all sin, not just some sins a dogma pronounces to be mortal or other titles.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Jesus has purged all of our sins not a place called purgatory.

1st Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Belief in purgatory is the belief that Jesus’s death on the cross was a failure and incomplete.If salvation is only partial, or needs additional work, what Jesus did on the cross is insufficient.

The bible is crystal clear. Jesus’s death on the cross was complete for the atonement for all sins.

 

[steve-b]

1st John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, **and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.**8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Notice we are cleansed from all sin, not just some sins a dogma pronounces to be mortal or other titles.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Jesus has purged all of our sins not a place called purgatory.

1st Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Belief in purgatory is the belief that Jesus’s death on the cross was a failure and incomplete.If salvation is only partial, or needs additional work, what Jesus did on the cross is insufficient.

The bible is crystal clear. Jesus’s death on the cross was complete for the atonement for all sins.

So now you’re a universalist?

 

[ReadTheBible]

So now you’re a universalist?

I don’t know what that is. I’ve heard of the 7th day denomination but I’ve never studied what their dogma is.

 

[nearlycatholic]

Facts are no respecter of religion. Truth is truth and a man’s being offended by it is irrelevant. At this point in my life I wish I had been offended with the truth of this church years and years ago. It would have saved me much of the turmoil I’m going through now. I have grown to love this faith and it’s “new” to me. Please don’t do me any favors and hold back the truth.

Blockquote

 

[ReadTheBible]

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable.If you indeed believe it is not a parable there is still no purgatory mentioned. One is in heaven and the other is in hell.

 

[nogames]

According to the bible, assuming one doesn’t die in mortal sin, all that is unworthy in a soul, is ultimately purged away. Thereby one is purified.

That isn’t what the passage says. 1 Cor. 3:10-15

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

As you can see, this has absolutely nothing to do with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. If you read what has already been said here (by Catholics) you will see that purgatory is a place where PEOPLE are PURIFIED, and not a place where the QUALITY OF WORKS of people are TESTED by fire. Do you understand the difference between a fire that burns human WORKS (to test their quality) and a fire that supposedly purifies HUMAN BEINGS through temporal punishment?