Purgatory view

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mike
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I just finished reading Purgatory – Explained by the lives of the saints by Fr. F.X. Schouppe, S.J. published by TAN (ISBN: 0-89555-301-5)

I found this book to be a scholarly work, highly documented and carefully representative of many historical accounts of purgatory throughout the entirety of church history.

The book contains 106 short chapters. I found this to be a real page turner and could not put it down. I believe this is an important book. I would be interested in the assessment of others who have read it.

Given the contents of this book, how to we reinvigorate Catholic Adults toward the catechesis on Purgatory?

Thanks,
 
The hardest part about Purgatory must be that you are so close to God, but not quite there. Oh the anticipation! But, those souls in Purgatory are surely blessed they know that they will be in heaven some day. If only we on earth could all say that with certitude.
 
I’m one of those ‘other’ people.

Why?

The options that affirm that purgatory exists all say that it is either like this or it is like that.

None of those would fit for me because all I that I can say is that it may be like the various models proposed, but I just don’t know.

The Church has not made a definitive teaching on this matter because it would seem that either the revelation given to us in scripture and tradition don’t inform us of this information or that it does and that the Holy Spirit simply hasn’t yet led us to a full understanding of that truth in it.

I suspect that it would be the former rather than the latter. Since the truths of revelation deal primarily with matters that are necessary for our salvation, I’m just not sure how knowing the precise nature of purgatory would help us in that regard. I can see how knowing that it exists is helpful, yes. But not knowing whether or not it our experience of it will be across time or instantaneously.
 
40.png
Nel:
Jason, yes, I think that’s what he meant. It was because I had a sense that there are three ‘places’ you could go. I may have even thought that purgatory was sort of like a mini-hell, with the same spiritual ‘ambience’ so to speak, as hell.

Could you give some titles of books that give testimonies of souls that you mention? I had a great little book - red, smaller than my hand, Sophia Institute Press, I think - in which a saint (?) wrote about visions or visit to purgatory. It was a wonderful little book… But I gave it away to a friend who was in a state of crisis when both her father and dear aunt died one after the other. She needed to have a sense of where they were, what was happening to them…

Alas, I’ve lost contact with that friend and can’t borrow the book back!

But this is a very interesting thread (as you may have guessed, I’ve thought a little about purgatory and asked my confessor about it). Do you have any recommended reading?
Click to expand...
Nel, the book I had in mind is called *Purgatory *and I can’t for the life of me remember who the author is. It’s a digest-sized paperback, about 300 pages, and is a collection of testimonies from members of religious orders and others to whom souls in Purgatory have appeared and given warnings about living better lives. If I can find the book in my house, I’ll write back and give you the author’s name.
 
Of course I believe in purgatory, but I voted “other” because I dont think we can really know for sure whether it is a place or condition or if there is real time in purgatory. Let’s not forget that purgatory is a doctrine of the faith, which means that Catholics must belief in the existence of purgatory.
 
Dr. Colossus:
That’s not entirely true. Choice #2 is equally acceptable. From the CCC:

Notice that where it says “the tradition of the Church”, tradition is not capitalized. Hence the “cleansing fire” is not necessarily real, and most certainly not, as you say, “the same fires as…Hell”. The reference above clearly states that purgatory is “entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”
Click to expand...
Summa:

“Therefore the fire of Purgatory is the same as the fire of hell: and hence they are in the same place.”

He explains the latter part of that sentence: “Further, the holy fathers; before the coming of Christ, were in a more worthy place than that wherein souls are now cleansed after death, since there was no pain of sense there. Yet that place was joined to hell, or the same as hell: otherwise Christ when descending into Limbo would not be said to have descended into hell. Therefore Purgatory is either close to, or the same place as, hell.”

newadvent.org/summa/700102.htm
 
T.A.Stobie:
We have to want to be cleansed so God can do it.
Click to expand...
Purgatory is definitely demanded by the soul. C.S. Lewis, in his “Letters to Malcolm” said,

"Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would in not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’ - ‘Even so, sir.’ "

I think that Lewis was also correct about it being likely to involve some suffering because we do not give up our sinfulness without some pain. The idea of purgation is one that means we willingly submit to being cleansed of all our wrong ideas and all of the remainder of our sinful nature in order to be finally made holy through the blood of the lamb.

If it requires some suffering, I hope that I joyfully embrace it, especially considering the suffering of Jesus to allow me to even contemplate the love of the Father.

in pacem Christus,
df
 
Seems to me #2 is closest to the Catechism and to scripture:

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

While it mentions fire, it doesn’t say that fire is in a place, necessarily. I think it is God’s process of purification. God appeared to Moses as a burning bush. He wrote upon the tablets in fire. I think his presence burns into those not worthy, and I think the purification process, just like purifying metal, must be done in fire.

So - I do think it is possible for pugatory to be a process or state (rather than an absolute place) and still have the same fires as Hell. I’d much rather think “process” because one is purified in purgatory. I mean, that is it’s purpose - to purify a soul for heaven. So whether it’s a physical place or not - you go through a process of purification.

–Ann
 
Nel, the book might be called Fire of Love by Saint Catherine of Genoa.
 
Purgatory will be like going on a loooooong trip. A journey if you will. We’ll experience suffering and pain on our journey as we finally allow ourselves to purged of our vices and selfishness. IMO
 
Hi all,

I don’t know bout the majority, but I find the teaching on Purgatory very consoling. I especially like two views: first as espoused by a certain saint, I forget the name (Cathrine of something?) cited by Fr. Benedict Groeschel. His insight is that we go to Purgatory because we WANT to be there, while all the time, God is at the door, constantly beckoning for us to enter heaven. It is WE who actually decline, since it is our desire to come into God’s presence fully clean. The suffering of Purgatory is therefore a joyful suffering, because we suffer in love, yet knowing that we will enter heaven when we know we are ready.

The second view I also find quite beautiful is the one understood by our Eastern Catholic brothers. Many of us don’t really know that our Eastern brothers teach Purgatory without using the term. They instead understand it as a “Final Theosis”, that is, a journey to heaven where we, on the way, shed off what is still unworthy of heaven, and in so doing, completely participate in the divine life God has given us. There is no explicit mention of “fire” in the Eastern understanding. The “fire” thing has been pretty Western, which tends to have a more “penitential” slant in its theology. I’m no Eastern of course, but you can do a QA search on EWTN boards for “final theosis”.

All in all, if this is the way I can undestand Purgatory, well, lemme in. Because even if I know suffering will be involved, and that I will long to enter God’s presence, I do know I won’t be miserable, coz I know I’m saved. 🙂
 
Just some thoughts about time. Several have mentioned that purgatory is outside of time. I think there is a basic flaw in people’s understanding of dimentionality.
As we add dimentions, the already existing dimentions do not go away. For example when we go from 2 to 3 dimensions we add hieght, but width and length still exist, and in fact must still exist. How can you have hieght without length and width?
When we move into another world whether heaven or purgatory, or whatever, time doesn’t necessarily go away. Rather we inhabit time in a different and more full way. In our worldly experience we exist in a chronological, sequential, limited experience of time, but when we pass to the next part of life we will experience time in a different way that is superioir to ours now. This is important if we are to have a sense as to how the Kingdom of Heaven can be present here and now.

Dan
 
Jason Hurd:
Nel, the book I had in mind is called *Purgatory *and I can’t for the life of me remember who the author is. It’s a digest-sized paperback, about 300 pages, and is a collection of testimonies from members of religious orders and others to whom souls in Purgatory have appeared and given warnings about living better lives. If I can find the book in my house, I’ll write back and give you the author’s name.
Click to expand...
Nel, I found the book! It’s called *Purgatory *and the author is Father F.X.Schouppe; published by Tan Books. You should be able to find it in any good Catholic bookstore.
 
Jason Hurd:
Nel, I found the book! It’s called *Purgatory *and the author is Father F.X.Schouppe; published by Tan Books. You should be able to find it in any good Catholic bookstore.
Click to expand...
It may be easier to get than that. You can buy the book from
Tan books & Publishers
PO Box 424
Rockford Il 61105
Tel 800-437-5876

They take Master Card, Visa & Discover. Price is 9.00 + $2.00 S&H. It looks like major discounts are available .
John, check the back right inside the back cover.

Nel, I’s give them a call, but if you want more info, I can scan the page and email it to you.

My view.
I think purgatory is a state that the soul is in. Souls don’t take up space, bodies do. Heaven is a place becaue we know the the Lord Jesus and his mother are there in body (perhaps others). And I agree with those who see it as a process of pruification. We know that we cannot enter heaven until we have displaced all tendency to sin. Our temptations come to us from the world the flesh and the devil. Well what ever the source they wouldn’t be temptations if they were not attractive to us. So, even with sins forgiven by the Grace of God, we are still struggling. I don’t know about you folks but my contrition is seldom perfect (maybe never). So, all those sins that were forgiven with our flawed and imperfect contrition need to be worked out in that we need to reject them completely.

As I understand it no one will enter heaven until the soul has come to put God above all things. Mother, father, spouse, children, and even favorite pet. I know many good and faithful Catholics who openly worry that they may not be happy in heaven if a loved one is not there. I don’t think they will need to worry about that, because those concerns will be left behind in purgatory.

I think of the fire of purgatory as the intense longing or burning for God and the Beautific Vision. The more we suffer the sooner it’s over, because it is not about time - it’s about purification. By analogy, how long do you need to be in the shower, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, or until clean. But as to time. Who knows. Remember we are temporal beings, so for us it is all clock & calender. Not so in eternity. We’ll just have to wait and see.

I am sure it was Father Groeshel who said something like he was going to be the one who was left to sweep up and turn out the lights, at the end. The point being those who are undergoing final purification (the Church Suffering) are assured of salvation just as much as those in Heaven (The Church Triumphant). It is we, the Chuch Militant who have no assurances. Our one conselation is that the Suffering and Triumpant are all praying for us.

I pray for the souls in purgatory every day, with the help of God’s grace I will join them oneday.

Charliemac

" May all the souls of the faithfully departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen".
 
My new, ever-evolving understanding of purgatory is that it is a process rather than a place. To talk about heaven, hell and purgatory in terms of space and time is just way beyond anything we can comprehend with our feeble minds (or at least my teeny brain!).

I also find the doctrine of purgatory comforting. Not that we get a second chance to choose God as some protestants think but that we get the chance to be purifed before entering heaven.

Kris
 
40.png
Mike:
I just wanted to know the view of purgatory you believe in…
Click to expand...
go to the people that wrote sacred scripture, the same people that wrote the Catechism of the Catholic Church… the answer is there along with a great many answers… 👍
 
40.png
porthos11:
Hi all,

I don’t know bout the majority, but I find the teaching on Purgatory very consoling. I especially like two views: first as espoused by a certain saint, I forget the name (Cathrine of something?) cited by Fr. Benedict Groeschel. His insight is that we go to Purgatory because we WANT to be there, while all the time, God is at the door, constantly beckoning for us to enter heaven. It is WE who actually decline, since it is our desire to come into God’s presence fully clean. The suffering of Purgatory is therefore a joyful suffering, because we suffer in love, yet knowing that we will enter heaven when we know we are ready.

The second view I also find quite beautiful is the one understood by our Eastern Catholic brothers. Many of us don’t really know that our Eastern brothers teach Purgatory without using the term. They instead understand it as a “Final Theosis”, that is, a journey to heaven where we, on the way, shed off what is still unworthy of heaven, and in so doing, completely participate in the divine life God has given us. There is no explicit mention of “fire” in the Eastern understanding. The “fire” thing has been pretty Western, which tends to have a more “penitential” slant in its theology. I’m no Eastern of course, but you can do a QA search on EWTN boards for “final theosis”.

All in all, if this is the way I can undestand Purgatory, well, lemme in. Because even if I know suffering will be involved, and that I will long to enter God’s presence, I do know I won’t be miserable, coz I know I’m saved. 🙂
Click to expand...
Before returning back to the Byzantine Rite, I had been in the Roman Rite for 37 years, and thus had accepted the ‘thought of Purgatory.’
Last year, I started to feel GREAT sorrow for my father who passed away in 2002. The sorrow was to the point of many tears. I wanted to know whether my father was ok where he was (if he indeed was facing the flames of Purgatory not knowing what he was dealing with…he had a limited education (my father came in to the Catholic Church in 2001 at the age of 77, and died a year later).
So after the Divine Liturgy, I had put my thoughts together and asked my Pastor why do I feel this way.
First of all, he said that Purgatory does not exist as it does in the Western Church…(so the thought mentioned above post is a true way of Eastern thinking).
My pastor then told me that it is God’s Grace alone that accepts a soul into heaven, for we really do not know how long the cleansing from our sins really takes.
That comforted me a lot and yet I still believe some kind of cleansing WILL take place, if it is Fire or absoulte Grace, is fine with me, just as long as the Love of God does prevail! :cool:
I shouldn’t worry about such things and just have Faith!

Go with God!
Edwin
 
I voted other because unknown is not an option. I do not know how the concepts of time and place relate to purgatory.
 
Whom am I to say what is Purgatory, right? Only the ones departed really know. But what I do have is a idea. I think is a place for a person that due to his/her sins does not belong in hell but is not ready for heaven. I do not know if one suffers there. I have a dear Aunt who died and I was truly worried about her. Well I saw her in a dream, she had her usual lovely face and I kept asking her question like: where are you? She only smile, not a mega watt smile just a semi-smile. Then I ask her: are you okay? her expresion did not change, then I felt that she was sad and that she was truly asking something of me, so I always try to pray for her. I have not seen her in a dream so I am hoping she is okay.
 
I chose “other” because I believe in purgatory and that it is a place of purifications before entering heaven but I’m not sure about the specifics. I need to study more!!! God bless you all.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top