Purgatory view

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Take it to mind ive been Catholic for as far back as I can remember but just never went to Catholic school, I went to public schools. Befor I entered R.C.I.A., I thought pergatory was that place that ghosts happen to be stuck in for eternity, like in the movies, I guess. Now that I see things in the Churches aspect I dont know how it would be like or can even imagine.:confused:
 
I voted other because I picture it as a real place but without fire, just the knowledge that you are separated from God will be your punishment. But then I don’t know for sure. I just know I want my time there to be as short as possible. 🙂
 
My understanding of the nature of Purgatory does not include “time” - because eternity exists outside of time.
Rather, I have understood eternity to be like a doorway which we all pass through to get to heaven where we are stripped up our earthly attachments and residual effects of sin. For some - this doorway is harder to go through and more painful. It is a lonely journey but exists outside of time.
 
Purgatory has the same conditions of pain and sorrow as hell, but will be emptied of the souls there at the last judgement. The souls that were in purgatory will then be carried to heaven accompanied by the BVM and the angels , because they will have been " purged " of their imperfections, “though thy sins be as scarlet… they shall be made white as snow”
 
The Dead Bishop:
Purgatory has the same conditions of pain and sorrow as hell, but will be emptied of the souls there at the last judgement. The souls that were in purgatory will then be carried to heaven accompanied by the BVM and the angels , because they will have been " purged " of their imperfections, “though thy sins be as scarlet… they shall be made white as snow”
Well, who can argue with a bishop who’s dead and, I guess, giving us the benefit of his first hand knowledge? 🙂

Question: what about the souls of the people who are still alive at the time of the Last Judgement? If purgatory ceases to exist at that time, how will they be purified and able to enter heaven and behold the beatific vision? Will they just be sent to hell since there is no purgatory to purge them by fire?

Now that may seem an abstract question for a bishop who is already in purgatory, but it won’t be an abstract question for the billions of humans who will still be alive on earth at the Second Coming and suddenly find that there is no way to get themselves purged.
 
Fr Ambrose:
Well, who can argue with a bishop who’s dead and, I guess, giving us the benefit of his first hand knowledge? 🙂

Question: what about the souls of the people who are still alive at the time of the Last Judgement? If purgatory ceases to exist at that time, how will they be purified and able to enter heaven and behold the beatific vision? Will they just be sent to hell since there is no purgatory to purge them by fire?

Now that may seem an abstract question for a bishop who is already in purgatory, but it won’t be an abstract question for the billions of humans who will still be alive on earth at the Second Coming and suddenly find that there is no way to get themselves purged.
From the judgement of anti-christ and his defeat by Saint Michael the archangel there will be about 45 days given for souls of those times to repent and do penance…those people will need the necessary Graces to live this earthly life under Satan’s constant attacks ( of the flesh, of pride, avarice, envy, etc.) and not commit a mortal sin OR they must be able to make an " act " of Perfect Contrition before their demise and the last judgement.Why are you scandalized by my signature name? These are MY interpretations according to the Holy Bible and certain prophecies of the Saints along with my conjectures… in short… they’re not infallible teachings.but then neither is the modern day catechism, when they teach that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God!!!
 
The Dead Bishop:
Why are you scandalized by my signature name?
Well, as you know the Bible is rather harsh on those who want to communicate with the spirits of the dead! Necromancy and all that! So would you mind assuring us that we are corresponding with a live person?
 
Fr Ambrose:
Well, as you know the Bible is rather harsh on those who want to communicate with the spirits of the dead! Necromancy and all that! So would you mind assuring us that we are corresponding with a live person?
Apocalypse 3 vs 1-4 Might I ask of you… Why Fr ? in Fr Ambrose. Are you a Father … a Priest of God?
 
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Mike:
I just wanted to know the view of purgatory you believe in…
Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.** But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.** Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
between. 1Sa 25:36; Ps 49:14; Eze 28:24; Mal 3:18; 2Th 1:4-10; Jas 1:11-12; 5:1-7
they pass. Lu 12:59; Ps 50:22; Mt 25:46; Joh 3:36; 2Th 1:9; Re 20:10; 22:11
 
The Dead Bishop:
Apocalypse 3 vs 1-4 Might I ask of you… Why Fr ? in Fr Ambrose. Are you a Father … a Priest of God?
Priestmonk. Russian Orthodox Church. Irish by ancestry. Parish priest for the past 20 odd years…
 
Fr Ambrose:
Priestmonk. Russian Orthodox Church. Irish by ancestry. Parish priest for the past 20 odd years…
And you live in Middle Earth, ???:confused: Is that in Ireland?
 
The Dead Bishop:
And you live in Middle Earth, ???:confused:
Sorry, doing too many things at once. Yes, I’m an Irish Kiwi. Parish is Wellington, New Zealand. Bona fides: rocor.org.au/ Click on Parish Directory and look for NZ parishes. Like your Sardis reference… it makes sense now.
 
Fr Ambrose:
Sorry, doing too many things at once. Yes, I’m an Irish Kiwi. Parish is Wellington, New Zealand. Bona fides: rocor.org.au/ Click on Parish Directory and look for NZ parishes. Like your Sardis reference… it makes sense now.
Peace be to you, Father…please… pray for me,…In Christo Et Maria :amen:
 
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Authorkat:
I’ve read this book also, but the title on mine says, The wonderful secret of the Souls in Purgatory . It sounded authentic to me.

Based on what visionaries and other holy souls have reported about purgatory, I would have to conclude that Purgatory is a real place with real fire. The poor souls’ separation from God causes their greatest pain.
I just read this book too. It's a quick read, but very interesting. Of course, one need not accept any private revelation as fact, but it's certainly something to consider. But I did not read in the book that Purgatory is a real place with real fire. The souls of Purgatory described it as a real state, if not place, with real suffering to purify our souls. Fire was not mentioned (I don't think). The book also mentioned masses for the dead, and indulgences as effective to help souls in Purgatory, something we don't hear much of in this day and age, but valid nonetheless.
 
Purgatory is part of heaven. It is described in Revelations as a Sea of glass in front of the throne of heaven as if filled with fire. This fire is the fire of the Holy Spirit.

That Purgatory consists of a REAL fire is NOT Catholic dogmatic teaching. It is a theologoumenon. If this was a dogmatic teaching, it would have been insisted upon at the failed reunion of Florence with the Eastern Churches - BUT IT WAS NOT. Read the decrees of Trent. The only thing dogmatized at Trent is the fact that there is a “place” or “state” of purification and that our prayers and especially the Sacrifice of the Mass/Divine Liturgy is efficacious for the souls in Purgatory. There is no mention of fire, which seems to fall under the heading of those things which, if debated, do not lead to edification - a solemn warning of the definition by Trent…
Finally, just because we pray for the temporal punishments due to sin does not dictate that the punishment in purgatory has a temporal aspect.

The Eastern and Western understandings are two sides of the same coin. Easterns believe that the state of purification is an increase in holiness. Westerns believe that the state of purification is a decrease in those things that still separate us from God. One sees they are actually complementary definitions.

God bless all,
Greg
 
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GAssisi:
That Purgatory consists of a REAL fire is NOT Catholic dogmatic teaching. It is a theologoumenon. If this was a dogmatic teaching, it would have been insisted upon at the failed reunion of Florence with the Eastern Churches - BUT IT WAS NOT.
So do you believe that there is no fire in purgatory?

This would contadict the most eminent of Catholic Saints and theologians - St Ambrose, St Jerome, St Augustine, St Gregory, Thomas Aquinas. etc.

At the Council of Lyons, called by Pope Innocent IV to discuss the ailments of his Church, he enumerated the Greek rejection of purgatory and the “Greek Schism” as one of the major problems.

The papal teaching which he laid down about purgatory was:

“Forasmuch as (the Greeks) say that this place of purification is not indicated by their doctors by an appropriate and accurate word, we will, in accordance with the tradition and authority of the holy fathers, that henceforth it be called purgatorium, for in this temporary fire are cleansed not deadly capital sins, which must be remitted by penance, but those lesser venial sins which, if not removed in life, afflict men after death.”

Does not the Pope’s appeal to the “tradition and authority of the holy fathers” raise the existence of purgatorial fire to the level of necessary doctrine?
 
Bless me Father.

Since Purgatorial fire is a theologoumenon and not a dogmatic point of Catholicism, I am free to believe in it or not. It does not affect my status as a Catholic either way. No one (except perhaps Catholic Traditionalists) will contest this. But according to the official teaching of the Catholic Church, I am free to reject or believe it.

There are many beliefs in the ancient Church which are not dogmatized and are only theologoumenon. I think you will agree. And the Catholic or Orthodox is free to “pick and choose” among these theologoumena, according to how conducive it is to their spiritual health. Dogmatic points (as affirmed, for Catholics and Orthodox, by the first Seven Ecumenical Councils; and as affirmed, for Catholics in particular, by 22 Councils of the Catholic Church and other authoritative declarations by the Pope) cannot never be dispensed with.

Does that answer your question?
God bless,
Greg
 
Bless me, Father (once again)—

Further, your quote from the Council of Lyons proves my point exactly - as it does not mention purgatorial fire, only a cleansing.

God bless,
Greg
 
Bless me, Father (once again)—

Though the Council of Lyons mentions “fire,” the point of contention is whether the “fire” is real (i.e. physical), symbolic, or spiritual. The Council of Lyons does not define the nature of the “fire.” The Council of Florence, however, stated that the Greeks did not have to believe that the fire was real. I choose to believe it is not real - that it is the spiritual fire of God that cleanses our souls.

God bless,
Greg
 
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GAssisi:
There are many beliefs in the ancient Church which are not dogmatized and are only theologoumenon. I think you will agree. And the Catholic or Orthodox is free to “pick and choose” among these theologoumena, according to how conducive it is to their spiritual health.
I cannot find myself able to agree that there are many theologoumena for the Orthodox - beliefs which they may pick and choose. In fact only 2 come to mind immediately…
  1. Do animals go to heaven?
  2. Do the toll houses exist?
Can you reference the things which Catholics have as theologoumena?
Dogmatic points (as affirmed, for Catholics and Orthodox, by the first Seven Ecumenical Councils; and as affirmed, for Catholics in particular, by 22 Councils of the Catholic Church and other authoritative declarations by the Pope) cannot never be dispensed with.
This does not work for the Orthodox. For example if we follow that line of logic, the Orthodox would be able to accept or reject the dormition/assumption of the Mother of God since it has never been dogmatized in the East. But of course we *must *accept it - this month there is as always a strict two week fast preceding the feastday and the feastday itself on 15th August is celebrated with enormous solemnity and joy in all churches. Can you imagine any priest taking the line: “The assumption has never been dogmatized and it remains a theologoumenon; I reject it myself and so I will not keep this fast and I will not celebrate the feastday on the 15th!!” Not to believe it, even though it has never been dogmatized by any Council, would place a person outside the Orthodox faith.
Does that answer your question?
No. You seem to be mixing Orthodox and Catholic categories of theological certainty and doing justice to neither. 🙂
 
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