Purgatory view

[GAssisi]

Bless me, Father.

If you reread my post, you will find that the ONLY things I said are:

1. Theologoumena can be dispensed with according to the spiritual needs of the person.

This is true.

1. Dogmatized points of belief can never be dispensed with.

This is true.

I did NOT say that ONLY dogmatized points require the religious assent of the faithful. I did NOT say the doctrine of the Assumption is theologoumena, even for the Orthodox. I NEVER defined what are theologoumena and what are de fide in the Church. “De fide” is another category which I did not mention because I did not feel the need to bring it up. But I guess I must, though I probably do not need to define for YOU what “de fide” beliefs are. I will, however, assert that not all “de fide” beliefs are dogmatized, though they must still be adhered to with religious assent because they are in the deposit of the faith of the Church (i.e. Sacred Tradition).

With regards to Purgatorial fire (as a real fire), it is indeed a theologoumenon. Many Eastern Catholics do not believe in purgatorial fire, and probably some Western Catholics, like myself, do not believe in it either. But we are still faithful Catholics nevertheless.

I think perhaps you jumped to conclusions. Forgive me if I led you down that slippery slope by the incompleteness of my post.

God bless,
Greg

P.S. I can think of several other theologoumena among the Orthodox - 1) apokatastasis; 2) Mary’s freedom from pain at childbirth; 3) Millenarianism; 4) beliefs about theophanies in the OT. If I did an indepth research, I’m sure I can find many more.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

I can think of several other theologoumena among the Orthodox - 1) apokatastasis

Yikes… a heresy formally condemned with an anathema at the 5th Ecumenical Council in 543…

“If anyone hold to the apocatastasis, let him be anathema”

1. Mary’s freedom from pain at childbirth;

Yes, I would have to check but I believe this is mentioned in the texts for the feast of Christ’s birth. It is considered by the Orthodox that the liturgical texts are safeguarded by the Holy Spirit. Also in icons of the Nativity the Mother of God is never depicted in the throes of giving birth but in a quite serene manner. The tradition teaches that her giving birth was without pain.

1. Millenarianism;

Condemned as a heresy by the 3rd Ecumenical Council. One can find the belief in, I think, the earlier writings of Saint Justin Martyr but once the Ecumenical Council spoke a belief in it ceased to be an option.

1. beliefs about theophanies in the OT.

Not quite sure what you have in mind here? Whether it was the 1st or 2nd person of the Trinity?

I would still be interested to learn what theological beliefs are considered optional in Roman Catholicism (besides the existence of purgatorial fire.) I suppose that one would be whether or not Mary died or whether she was translated to heaven without dying?

 

[GAssisi]

Bless me, Father.

I have met many Orthodox who regard all the four I mentioned as theologoumena, among EO and OO. They probably did not know any better. Naturally, you are right that the decisions of an ecumenical council demand religious assent. The OO definitely have more beliefs regarded as theologoumena than the EO.

Many of the Catholic Church’s theologoumena, as you may have surmised, involves Mary: you touched on one. Others are: pain at childbirth, identity of Mary as the ark of heaven in Revelation, Mary’s title of co-redemptrix and mediatrix, and her apparitions (except for the ones formally accepted by the Catholic Church). Other theologoumena are concerned with the interpretation of certain texts of Scripture.

Regarding theophanies, yes I was referring to the identities of the apparitions/appearances.

God bless,
Greg
P.S. You are the kindest Russian Orthodox priest I have ever had the pleasure of conversing with.

 

[Matt16_18]

It is quite possible to suffer our purgatory here on earth. Catholics that successfully do this go directly to heaven when they die. Does that mean that a Catholic that has his purgatory on earth has to suffer literally in flames of fire? No.

Purgatory is the purgation of inordinate self-love. The refining fire that separates the gold from the dross is the fire of the Holy Spirit.

“I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!”
Luke 12:49

For every one will be salted with fire.
Mark 9:49

"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Matt. 3:11

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Matt16_18:

Purgatory is the purgation of inordinate self-love. The refining fire that separates the gold from the dross is the fire of the Holy Spirit.

I am now really confused about Catholic beliefs.

I thought that purgatory was the working off of the temporal punishment due to venial sin? Is this incorrect?

 

[Matt16_18]

Fr Ambrose:

I am now really confused about Catholic beliefs.

I thought that purgatory was the working off of the temporal punishment due to venial sin? Is this incorrect?

The temporal punishment due to sin is the consequence of inordinate self-love (pride). The sin of pride is the root cause of all sin, and pride causes in us an inordinate attachment to the created instead of the Creator.

Purgatory is where we finish our conversion that was begun on earth, a place where we are freed from the last vestiges of inordinate self-love - the gold is purified of all dross by the refiners fire.

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

The punishments of sin

1472** To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

 

[Matt16_18]

Fr. Ambrose

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

1030** All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

I think Fr. Hampsh has an excellent understanding of the Catholic Church’s doctrine of purgatory:

Summarizing the declarations of the Second Council Nicea in 787 and the Council of Florence in 1439, the Council of Trent (1549-63) declared: “There is a purgatory, and the soul detained there are helped by the ‘suffrages’ * of the faithful. These two facts, stated simply in one sentence, embrace the entire official teaching of the Catholic Church on purgatory. ….

More than five hundred Scripture passages refer to God’s mercy in forgiving repented sin, such as Hebrews 8:12: “I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” The Catholic Church champions the teaching on God’s mercy (a part of which is purgatory itself, paradoxically). Purgatory does not cause the removal of sin, as many non-Catholics accuse us as teaching. Purgatory clears up only the effects of that forgiven sin. Jesus’ blood shed on Calvary purifies us of that sin (1 Jn. 1:7, etc.), but not necessarily of the remnant effects of that sin – such as the tendency or habit of sin. Jesus’ redemptive act does not “cancel the acquired propensity to evil,” as St. Gregory of Nyssa wrote in the fourth century. Yet, by God’s mercy and grace we can work toward that supplementary goal, as the Bible so often attests, toward a fuller purification (1Pet. 1:22), and a completing of a salvation already attained by faith (vs. 5).

If we don’t do this completely in this life, it will have to be done in the next, as St. Augustine reminds us. In this regard, Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:25-26 are appropriate: “Settle matters quickly … do it while you are still on the way … or you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” This specifies and reaffirms what Jesus spoke of else where (Mt. 18:34), in terms of debt payment for moral failure of the unjust steward, who was jailed “until he should pay back all that was owed.”

Overall, the lessons of purgatory are encouraging: First, because purification (not punishment) is a form of suffering that is intensely love-inflamed; second, it teaches us that we can accomplish the same purification painlessly here on earth; and third, it teaches us that we have, by God’s goodness, a powerful means at our disposal to assist souls now in purgatory who are pleading for our help by our prayers.

John H. Hampsch, C.M.F., Glad You Asked; Scriptural Answers for Our Times, p. 64 & p. 77-78, © 1992, Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Division; Huntington, Indiana*

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Matt16_18:

Summarizing the declarations of the Second Council Nicea in 787 and the Council of Florence in 1439, the Council of Trent (1549-63) declared: “There is a purgatory, and the soul detained there are helped by the ‘suffrages’ * of the faithful.* These two facts, stated simply in one sentence, embrace the entire official teaching of the Catholic Church on purgatory. ….
Thank you for this. This is what I desired to know - the official teaching.

1. there is a purgatory
2. souls there are helped by the prayers of the living

It had become quite confusing because people keep saying that the Orthodox have a belief in purgatory (even though we say that we do not!) But then people go on to offer such a multitude of differing opinions about purgatory that it is impossible to discern what the Orthodox are supposed to believe in.

Now that you have clarified matters and reduced it to the official teaching, I can say from the Orthodox side

1. there is no purgatory
2. souls after death are helped by the prayers of the living

See

 

[GAssisi]

Bless me father.

Do you believe that all theosis occurs on earth?

Why do Eastern Liturgies include prayers for the dead?

Greg

 

[Matt16_18]

Fr. Ambrose

The Orthodox pray for the souls of the dead. For what reason do they offer these prayers?

 

[cybrscream]

By no means is it official Church teaching, but if you are interested in applying a mental pictures to Purgatory, read Dante’s Divine Comedy, specifically Purgatorio (the 2nd book, Purgatory in English).

At the end of the 1st book (Inferno), Dante exits Hell and is about to enter into Purgatory. He describes a shore were late repentors sit (I have no clue why they sit there and wait), and beyong them is a great mountain. At the base of the mountain are the gates leading into Purgatory and eventually Heaven. He places several levels on the mountain, each corresponding to the relief of some past sin through painful or sufferings or of some other hardship. At the top of the mountain he says you pass through the “Purging Fire” and then are lifted up by an angel to the Garden of Eden. There you drink from two seperate rivers. The first to forget everything of your earlthy life (to dispose of sin from your mind) and the second river to replenish all memories or thoughts of what is good and pure. From that point you are again taken by an angel up into Heaven.

The mountain Dante calls Purgatory was created (according to himself) by the fall of Lucifer. He says that when Lucifer fell from Heaven he impacted with the earth so hard that the land around his point of impact shot up to form the mountain.

Again, this isn’t necessarily the way everything truly is…but it helps, I think, with picturing it somehow.

 

[cybrscream]

I also have to bring up John Miltons words from Paradise Lost. During the story, when the angel Gabriel comes to Adam in the Garden of Eden to tell him of Satan, and of his fall from Heaven, he tells Adam that there is no way that he could accurately describe the events to the human mind, but that he will tell of it in such a way that the human mind can get an idea of what actually happened.

When I was in the inquiry part of the RCIA process a man told me that things of this nature, and many others, are simply not important. He went on to say that, “I bet a lot of your questions will be answered when you get there.”

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

Do you believe that all theosis occurs on earth?

That is difficult to answer since I do not know what you understand by theosis? Could you elaborate. The Orthodox and the Catholic understanding would be at odds on some important theology since some of the basics of the Orthodox understanding, such as the distinction of God as Essence and Energies and uncreated grace, are seen as heretical by the Catholic Church.

Why do Eastern Liturgies include prayers for the dead?

The Second Book if Maccabees, chapter 12 tells us that “it is a good and wholesome thing to pray for the dead.” What God in Scripture has declared good and wholesome must be so indeed, and we hear what He says and we do what He says - we pray for the dead.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Matt16_18:

The Orthodox pray for the souls of the dead. For what reason do they offer these prayers?

Dear Matt16,
I just wrote something about that to GAssisi in message 92. Also if you go back to message 87 and click on the link it will take you to a small answer from one of the “question and answer” services run by an Orthodox priest in the States.

 

[gsaccone]

Hello Father,

I think Matt16_18’s point was this - if there is no purgatory (as you say the Orthodox believe), what logic is there to praying for the dead (as you say the Orthodox do)? Is is just some other state/place called by a name other than purgatory? Please be so kind as to elaborate without directing us outside the forum for an answer. Blessings and peace to you in Christ

 

[Matt16_18]

gsaccone:

Hello Father,

I think Matt16_18’s point was this - if there is no purgatory (as you say the Orthodox believe), what logic is there to praying for the dead (as you say the Orthodox do)? Is is just some other state/place called by a name other than purgatory?

Yes, that is the why I asked my question.

Father Ambrose mentions quotes Second Book if Maccabees, where it is written that the Jews believed that it “it is a good and wholesome thing to pray for the dead.” Let us look at some aspects of the Jewish prayers for the dead:

Jewish Kaddish

Jewish funeral customs include:

*Mitzvot of Bikur Cholim, the act of kindness of visiting sick
*Kavod Ha-Met, honoring the dead
*Shomer, religious watchman praying over the deceased
*Chevra Kadisha, Holy Society who prepares the body for burial
*Taharah, purification
*Takhirkhin, burial shrouds
*Service and Prayers
*Eretz Yisroel, earth from Israel
*Shiva and Yahrzeit, remembrance
The process generally follows along these lines: Before death, the primary focus is on the needs of the infirmed (Bikur Cholim). When death occurs, the focus turns to honoring the deceased (Kavod Ha-Met). Judaism equates a dead body with that of a damaged Torah scroll, no longer fit for its intended use, but still deserving reverence for the holy purpose it once served.

This is why, from death to burial, the body is never left unattended and **the soul is prayed for by a religious watchman (Shomer). ** This ancient custom has provided invaluable comfort to survivors. Also in ancient days, the family immediately contacted members of a Holy Society (Chevra Kadisha) when a death was confirmed. …

In addition to the physical cleansing and preparation of the body for burial, the Chevra Kadisha also recite required prayers asking God for forgiveness for any sins that may have been committed by the person who died. Prayers are also asked for God to receive the soul of the deceased, guard the person and grant them eternal peace. …

The Jewish Funeral - A Celebration of Life
By David Techner​

The Catholic beliefs about praying for the dead are related to the Jewish beliefs. The Jewish beliefs are a type, and the Catholic beliefs are the antitype that fulfill what the type represents.

 

[Matt16_18]

Fr Ambrose:

The Orthodox and the Catholic understanding would be at odds on some important theology since some of the basics of the Orthodox understanding, such as the distinction of God as Essence and Energies and uncreated grace, are seen as heretical by the Catholic Church.

As for the Catholic Church teaching that uncreated grace is a heresy, well, that is just an Orthodox misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church teaches.

The Uncreated Grace is God Himself in so far as He, in His love, from all eternity has pre-determined the gifts of grace, in so far as He has communicated Himself in the Incarnation of Christ’s Humanity (gratia unionis), in so far as He indwells in the souls of the justified, and in so far as He gives Himself to the blessed for possession and enjoyment of the Beatific Vision. The Hypostatic-Union, The Indwelling and the Beatific Vision, considered as acts, are indeed created graces, for they had a beginning in time. But the gift which is conferred on a creature in these acts is uncreated.

Created grace is a supernatural gift or operation really distinct from God.

Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma
The link you posted is to an OCA website page that has about 200 topics listed in it. Which topic is it that you think is germane to this thread?

Also, if you could guide me to a webpage that clearly explained what the Orthodox mean by Essence and Energies, I would appreciate it! This is one aspect of Orthodox theology that I have found incomprehensible, as it seems to me that even the Orthodox cannot agree on what these terms mean.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

gsaccone:

I think Matt16_18’s point was this - if there is no purgatory (as you say the Orthodox believe), what logic is there to praying for the dead (as you say the Orthodox do)

The Orthodox on the list here will immediately recognise that you have highlighted one of the things which divide Roman Catholicism from Orthodoxy - the Catholic seeks logic and needs to understand, the Orthodox bow down in obedience before the Almighty and say, “Yes, Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief.” We pray for the dead because God has revealed to us (2 Maccabees 12) that it is a “good and wholesome thing to pray for the dead.”

We pray for the dead because our fathers in the faith since the first generations have prayed for the dead. We pray for the dead because the Spirit has inspired the Saints to compose church services for the dead.

We also pray for the dead because the human heart feels the compulsion to do so - it is such a profound need that only the Creator could have implanted it within our souls.

In the same faith and obedience to scripture and tradition the Orthodox take bread and wine and pray over them with the words of the Lord and ask the Spirit to transform them - we do it because God has told us to. We do not understand how it works nor do we understand the logic of it. We do not ask to know that. It is enough for the Orthodox that God acts and something happens.

Please be so kind as to elaborate without directing us outside the forum for an answer

Sorry if that was annoying but on this same topic on another thread I was challenged to prove what I was saying by referring to an Orthodox “expert.” It is why I offered the link to a “Question and Answer” site run by an Orthodox priest.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Matt16_18:

As for the Catholic Church teaching that uncreated grace is a heresy, well, that is just an Orthodox misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church teaches.

The Uncreated Grace is God Himself in so far as He, in His love, from all eternity has pre-determined the gifts of grace, in so far as He has communicated Himself in the Incarnation of Christ’s Humanity (gratia unionis), in so far as He indwells in the souls of the justified, and in so far as He gives Himself to the blessed for possession and enjoyment of the Beatific Vision. The Hypostatic-Union, The Indwelling and the Beatific Vision, considered as acts, are indeed created graces, for they had a beginning in time. But the gift which is conferred on a creature in these acts is uncreated.

Created grace is a supernatural gift or operation really distinct from God.

Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma

This is fascinating. In your estimation does the Catholic teaching on uncreated grace equate to the Orthodox teaching?

if you could guide me to a webpage that clearly explained what the Orthodox mean by Essence and Energies, I would appreciate it!

I suggest that you make a start by reading the relevant sections of Lossky’s “Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church” (usually in a public library) and, Archbishop Basil Krivosheine’s “The Ascetic and Theological Teaching of Gregory Palamas” (originally published in “Eastern Churches Quarterly” and harder to find but well worth it.)

After that it is best to go to the hesychatic father par excellence Saint Gregory Palamas and his “Triads.” There is an English translation from Paulist Press.

Web searches may turn up some of this material?

This is one aspect of Orthodox theology that I have found incomprehensible, as it seems to me that even the Orthodox cannot agree on what these terms mean.

It is just as incomprehensible to the ordinary Orthodox. We are dealing here with mystery of the nature and being of God Himself. In these areas real knowledge comes only through real participation. It is a matter of faith being informed by experience of the mysteries it is groping to describe… without the experience the description will be awry. To quote Philaret of Moscow again…

“None of the mysteries of the most secret wisdom of God ought to appear alien or altogether transcendent to us, but in all humility we must apply our spirit to the contemplation of divine things. To put it in another way, we must live the dogma expressing a revealed truth, which appears to us as an unfathomable mystery, in such a fashion that instead of assimilating the mystery to our mode of understanding, we should, on the contrary, look for a profound change, an inner transformation of spirit, enabling us to experience it mystically.”
Sermons of Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow, 1844, Part II.

 

[hermit]

Purgatory is being locked in a small room with nothing to read but Fr. Greeley’s fiction.