purgatory

[moondweller]

John Henry Bernard (1860-1927) (Anglican)

On the whole then it seems probable that Onesiphorus was dead when St. Paul prayed on his behalf . . . (The Pastoral Epistles, Cambridge University Press, 1899, p. 114:

Donald Guthrie (1915-1992) (Anglican):

Since it is assumed by many scholars that Onesiphorus was by now dead, the question has been raised whether this sanctions prayer for the dead. Roman catholic theologians claim that it does. Spicq, for instance, sees here an example of prayer for the dead unique in the New Testament. Some Protestants agree with this judgment and cite the Jewish precedent of 2 Macc 12:43-45 . . . (The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, The Pastoral Epistles: An Introduction and Commentary, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Eerdmans Pub. Co., 2nd edition, 1990, p. 148)

William Barclay (1907-1978) (Presbyterian / Church of Scotland)

. . . there are many who feel that the implication is that Onesiphorus is dead. It is for his family that Paul first prays. Now, if he was dead, this passage shows us Paul praying for the dead, for it shows him praying that Onesiphorus may find mercy on the last day. (The Letters to Timothy, Titus, and Philemon, Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 3rd edition, 2003, p. 175)

I have more if you need them.

The problem is, Randy, the text does not state that he was dead. One can speculate that he was, but the text does not actually say he was. It’s also possible he was away from his household for a prolong amount of time. We simply don’t know. But what Paul was stating to his readers was his desire for the Lord to reward Onesiphorus for his faithful service to him. That’s all he states concerning Onesiphorus. According to Paul’s own teaching, all believers will receive reward in the future for their valued works (1 Cor. 3:8-15). This is what Paul was referring to. Paul knew NOTHING of Catholic Purgatory, but rather he taught that to be absent from the body (death) is to be home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-8).

Which of the men you quote say Paul was praying for Onesiphorus in “Purgatory?”

 

[PRmerger]

Paul knew NOTHING of Catholic Purgatory

Well, MD, to use your same argument, truly we “simply don’t know” that with certainty, (unless, of course, you have a Scripture verse that claims “Paul new NOTHING of Catholic Purgatory”. )

Indeed, how can anyone claim what Paul new “nothing of”?

but rather he taught that to be absent from the body (death) is to be home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-8).

What translation of Scripture are you using, MD? For all the translations here say something completely different. These translations say they would prefer to be with the Lord, or “willing” to be with the Lord, but not “to be absent from the body is to be home with the Lord”

(I could say “I would **prefer **to be away from my office and in Florida” ***but that most certainly does not equate to ***“To be absent from my office is to be in Florida.”

NIV© We are confident, I say, and would **prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
NAS© we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
ISV© We are confident, then, and would prefer **to be away from this body and to live with the Lord.
GWT© We are confident and **prefer **to live away from this body and to live with the Lord.
KJV We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
AKJ We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
ASV we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
BBE We are without fear, desiring to be free from the body, and to be with the Lord.
DRB But we are confident, and **have a good will **to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
DBY we are confident, I say, and **pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
ERV we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
WBS We are confident, I say, and willing **rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
WEY So we have a cheerful confidence, and we anticipate with greater delight being banished from the body and going home to the Lord.
WEB We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
YLT we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Which of the men you quote say Paul was praying for Onesiphorus in “Purgatory?”

That’s not the point, and you know it.

Paul prayed for someone who, apparently, was dead. No way around that as a very real possibility, is there?

Let’s move on:

Acts 20:7-12
7On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. 10Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “He’s alive!” 11Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. 12The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted.

“Once to die and then the judgment”, right?

So, moondweller, was Eutychus dead or alive after he hit the ground? Either you dismiss the miracle or you admit that Paul prayed for a dead person.

Which is it?

 

[moondweller]

PRmerger:

Well, MD, to use your same argument, truly we “simply don’t know” that with certainty, (unless, of course, you have a Scripture verse that claims “Paul new NOTHING of Catholic Purgatory.”

Indeed, how can anyone claim what Paul new “nothing of”?

It was Paul’s job as an Apostle to “bring to light” the “mystery” of this present administration; to reveal the manifold wisdom of God that was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord:Eph 3:8-11 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly {places.} {This was} in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him."So, if there is such a place as Catholic Purgatory, or if there was a need for such a horrific place, it would have been revealed to him and he would have revealed it, via the Scriptures, to the church. But he teaches NOTHING on it.

Purgatory is not Biblical, it’s uniquely RC.

What translation of Scripture are you using, MD? For all the translations here say something completely different. These translations say they would prefer to be with the Lord, or “willing” to be with the Lord, but not “to be absent from the body is to be home with the Lord”

(I could say “I would prefer to be away from my office and in Florida” but that most certainly does not equate to “To be absent from my office is to be in Florida.”

Here’s the text, PRM, from the NASB. Paul is making a statement about what happens to the believer (even himself) upon death (absent from the body):2 Cor 5:6-9 "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him."The believer can be in only one of two places: either “at home in the body” and therefore “absent from from Lord,” or, “absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.”

There’s nothing difficult about this, PRM. It’s quite straightforward: Paul knew NOTHING of a stop-off place called Purgatory. At the time of death the believer goes straight into the presence of the Lord.

The problem isn’t with what, or how, Paul states it - but your unbelief in what Paul clearly states.

 

[moondweller]

Randy Carson:

That’s not the point, and you know it.

Paul prayed for someone who, apparently, was dead. No way around that as a very real possibility, is there?

Well, you’re building your brick wall, piece by piece, on a very sandy foundation, Randy: Seculation. Your labor is in vain because it will fall.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, in the text Paul wasn’t praying to God for Onesiphorus, but expressing to Timiothy his tremendous gratitude for his faithfulness to him when, while in chains, others had departed from him; conveying to Timothy his hope-filled desire that the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. “That day” is the day that Paul himself taught about, when true believers will go before the judgment seat of Christ to have their WORKS appraised for the purpose of receiving reward (1 Cor. 3:8-15). The context is Onesiphorus’ WORKS, not his sins (as a believer his sins were ALL forgiven him).

Paul taught nothing on Catholic Purgatory.

So, moondweller, was Eutychus dead or alive after he hit the ground? Either you dismiss the miracle or you admit that Paul prayed for a dead person.

I don’t dismiss the miracle at all. Luke the physician was present and he records that he was “picked up dead.” But what does this miracle have to do with Catholic Purgatory? It’s not even recorded there that Paul said any prayer on behalf of the young man. Nor does the text say that the man came back to life from Purgatory. For that matter, it wasn’t even said that about Lazarus who was in the grave for four days before Jesus called him back to the living. Happy so say, Purgatory just isn’t in the Bible, my friend.

So far all you people have been doing is reading your beloved Purgatory into selected verses which, in reality, state absolutely nothing about that horrific place.

Randy, have you, or any of your Catholic buddies, prayed anyone back from Purgatory that he/she might witness to such a place? The Man Christ Jesus came back from the dead and not even He spoke a word about that place. It’s stricly RC for RCs. According to the Scriptures, the rest of us go straight Home to be with our Lord having been redeemed by His blood.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well, you’re building your brick wall, piece by piece, on a very sandy foundation, Randy: Seculation. Your labor is in vain because it will fall.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, in the text Paul wasn’t praying to God for Onesiphorus, but expressing to Timiothy his tremendous gratitude for his faithfulness to him when, while in chains, others had departed from him; conveying to Timothy his hope-filled desire that the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. “That day” is the day that Paul himself taught about, when true believers will go before the judgment seat of Christ to have their WORKS appraised for the purpose of receiving reward (1 Cor. 3:8-15). The context is Onesiphorus’ WORKS, not his sins (as a believer his sins were ALL forgiven him).

As I pointed out in an earlier post, LOTS of non-Catholic scholars disagree with you.

Paul taught nothing on Catholic Purgatory.I don’t dismiss the miracle at all. Luke the physician was present and he records that he was “picked up dead.” But what does this miracle have to do with Catholic Purgatory?

One step at a time, MD…

It is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment, right?

So, did Paul pray for Eutychus WHO WAS DEAD? Yes or no?

Or did Paul’s mere touch alone bring him back to life? Hmmm…tell you what…here’s another:

Acts 9:40
Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

Peter prayed, then commanded Tabitha who was dead to get up. What was Peter praying about? Did Peter ask God to raise her back to life? Did Peter ask permission to retore her life? What?

Moondweller, forget purgatory for a moment…did Paul and Peter pray for these dead people?

 

[jackregnier]

I believe that Purgatory is a genitically altered Gospel that Catholic’s have made up. To my Evangelical friends, Good Job in debunking this horrible doctrine.
Peace, Jack

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I would have to disagree about your reference to Jesus “forgiveness in the age to come” statement not being about Purgatory. Your argument seem to be that this does not refer to a period after death.

I disagree completely that this phrase does not refer to after death.

Hebrews: 9:8-9: “By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the Sacntuary, the Holy of Holies, is not yet opened as long as the outer tent is still standing, which is symbolic for the present age, in which gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot perfect the conscience of the worshipper, but deal only with food and drink and various ablutions.”

The outer tent rreferred to is the Holy Place and the Courtyard outside the Holy of Holies. He is speaking of the Day of Atonement and the High priest’s offer of sacrifice every year. As long as the Jerusalem Temple still stands, the way into the Holy of Holies is not yet open for all people. The “present age” ended in 70 AD, and the “age to come arrives.”

HOWEVER, we are living LITURGICALLY in the age to come. It hasn’t come physically, but it is here spiritually and we partake in it through the Sacraments, where our liturgy is joined with that in heaven. That being said, we don’t participate FULLY in the “age to come” until we are dead. We have Old creation flesh, but we worship in the New creation. We are on the old earth but worship in the new. We are in the “between times.”

FOR this reason, the age-to-come is not a total reality in the absolute sense until after death, and for this reason I believe Jesus is speaking of purgatory. This is borne out by the fact that purgatory would not have existed until people entered the presence of God, which only takes place when Jesus ushers in the “age to come,” and that is why Jesus would refer to it in the future sense. Before you even make the argument that it should have happened directly after the cross, I would point out that if eternity is outside of time then that is irrelevant.

 

[PRmerger]

It was Paul’s job as an Apostle to “bring to light” the “mystery” of this present administration; to reveal the manifold wisdom of God that was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord:Eph 3:8-11 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly {places.} {This was} in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him."So, if there is such a place as Catholic Purgatory, or if there was a need for such a horrific place, it would have been revealed to him and he would have revealed it, via the Scriptures, to the church. But he teaches NOTHING on it.

Did Paul teach that God exists as a Trinity of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
That Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of a Virgin?
That God loves you?
To keep the commandments?
That you should love the Lord your God with your entire heart, soul, mind and strength?
That Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father except through Him?

Those are some doctrines missing in Pauline epistles, yet, I assume, you believe them?

 

[PRmerger]

ItHere’s the text, PRM, from the NASB. Paul is making a statement about what happens to the believer (even himself) upon death (absent from the body):2 Cor 5:6-9 "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him."The believer can be in only one of two places: either “at home in the body” and therefore “absent from from Lord,” or, “absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.”

Ah. I thought that you had claimed that Scripture says this:

Originally posted by Moondweller: but rather he taught that to be absent from the body (death) is to be home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-8)

Again, to be absent from my office is NOT to be in Florida. Although I would PREFER to be absent from my office and in Florida, they are not the same statement.

 

[moondweller]

As I pointed out in an earlier post, LOTS of non-Catholic scholars disagree with you.

One step at a time, MD…

It is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment, right?

That’s only a general statement. True believers “will not come into judgment but have passed out of death into life” (Jn. 5:24; cf. Jn. 3:18). Also there will be a generation of believers that will not experience physical death at all (1 Cor. 15:51; cf. 1 Thess. 4:14-18)

So, did Paul pray for Eutychus WHO WAS DEAD? Yes or no?

No, according to the text.

Peter prayed, then commanded Tabitha who was dead to get up. What was Peter praying about? Did Peter ask God to raise her back to life? Did Peter ask permission to retore her life? What?

The text gives us no clue.

You’re still stacking your bricks on sand, Randy.

Moondweller, forget purgatory for a moment…did Paul and Peter pray for these dead people?

It’s not recorded that Paul prayed at all, and we’re not given the words of Peter’s prayer. Your sand keeps shifting, Randy.

 

[moondweller]

PRmerger:

Ah. I thought that you had claimed that Scripture says this:
Quote:
Originally posted by Moondweller: but rather he taught that to be absent from the body (death) is to be home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-8)

Yes, and that’s exactly what the text states. If the true believer is at home in the body he’s absent from the Lord. If he’s at home with the Lord he’s absent from the body (that is, until the future resurrection or translation, which ever he/she may experience). :extrahappy:

But I, like Paul, would prefer to be absent from the body and be at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). But either way, whether at home or absent my ambition is to be pleasing to my Lord.

 

[joann1957]

Does the passage say they fasted FOR the “good” of Saul? Don’t read something into the text that’s not there, Joann.Actually Jesus stated that anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit either in this age or the age to come WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN. The age to come is the Millennial (1000 year) reign of Christ on earth. Speaking against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven during that age, either. Jesus states NOTHING about a “place” where sins are forgiven.So you’re saying that the horrific pains yet to be experienced in your Purgatory is not about cleansing of sins but paying one’s debt for “forgiven” sins. Rather contradictory, I’d say!So you’re saying your Purgatory is a “prison.”

That’s some God you’ve got there, Joann. A Father who sends His forgiven sons to prison. Doesn’t describe my God and Father who is full of mercy and grace, as demonstrated by His sending the Son into this world via the incarnation to be the propitiation for my sins. Doesn’t sound like Paul’s God either who said:Rom 8:32 "He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?"Neither Paul nor I have any expectation of our Father sending us to “prison.” Our debt was paid in full by Christ on the cross:Col 2:13-14 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."Are we talking about the same God?

**
Purgatory is a place where one knows they are goin to heaven and Jesus does refer to it as a prison, sorry buts its what he calls it. You have to interpret God whole word in the bible not just a couple of passages you choose to take out of context and live by.

Be happy there is a purgatory which is the Lords mercy for us so we dont go to hell

You believe in the OSAS doctrine which is the most distorted and disturbing doctrine of them all. i can see how you post… No one is guranteed heaven, if you truly knew how to interpret Gods warnings and consequences which is in the whole new testatment you would realize that in ever gospel he warns us with consequences if we continue in sin and do not abide in him… Grace does not place us above Gods laws and or commandments. Anyone can fall from grace at ay moment.

If you continue and remain steadfast, and in a state of grace.

I think its not worth my time to explain purgatory to you at this point, since I see you do profess the OSAS doctrine.

Joann**

 

[PRmerger]

It’s not recorded that Paul prayed at all

That’s quite a peculiar statement made by someone who also said this regarding Pauline teaching:

Orignially posted by moondweller: it would have been revealed to him and he would have revealed it, via the Scriptures, to the church. But he teaches NOTHING on it

So now you must conclude that since “it’s not recorded that Paul prayed at all”, then its’ not part of Divine Revelation and WE OUGHT NOT TO PRAY, based on your own arguments.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, and that’s exactly what the text states.

Again, this is quite a peculiar comment coming from someone who posted this:

originally posted by moondweller:
Don’t read something into the text that’s not there, Joann.

Show me where any translation says “to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord.” Remember, you’re saying that’s exactly what the text states. I showed you many that said I would PREFER, or am WILLING to be away from the body.

That is not the same statement.

I refer you to your comment:

originally posted by moondweller: Please stop trying to read your fully formed doctrine INTO the passage. It’s dishonest.

Right back at cha!

Be careful, MD, when you follow your fallible pastor’s non-authoritative man-made interpretations of Scripture. Remember, he’s fallible, and by definition, he’s going to be WRONG about Scripture at some point.

But I, like Paul, would prefer to be absent from the body and be at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8).

Yes, I would prefer to be absent from the body and be at home with the Lord, but if I am absent from my body, I MAY BE IN PURGATORY.

I prefer to be absent from my office and at home in Florida, too! But, alas, when I’m absent from my office, sometimes I’m at the earthly equivalents of purgatory: driver’s license bureau, in traffic, on hold with someone who thinks my call “is very important” etc etc etc.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Does the passage say they fasted FOR the “good” of Saul? Don’t read something into the text that’s not there, Joann.Actually Jesus stated that anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit either in this age or the age to come WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN. The age to come is the Millennial (1000 year) reign of Christ on earth. Speaking against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven during that age, either. Jesus states NOTHING about a “place” where sins are forgiven.So you’re saying that the horrific pains yet to be experienced in your Purgatory is not about cleansing of sins but paying one’s debt for “forgiven” sins. Rather contradictory, I’d say!So you’re saying your Purgatory is a “prison.”

That’s [SIGN]some God you’ve got there, Joann[/SIGN]. A Father who sends His forgiven sons to prison. [SIGN]Doesn’t describe my God [/SIGN]and Father who is full of mercy and grace, as demonstrated by His sending the Son into this world via the incarnation to be the propitiation for my sins. Doesn’t sound like[SIGN] Paul’s God [/SIGN]either who said:Rom 8:32 "He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?"Neither Paul nor I have any expectation of our Father sending us to “prison.” Our debt was paid in full by Christ on the cross:Col 2:13-14 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."Are we talking about the [SIGN]same God?[/SIGN]

Not according to you md. I thought there was only One God. Now you have stated 3 so far as I can see, on this post anyway. You said Joan has a God, you have a God, and Paul has a God. Is there anymore. I would hope that My God would be Paul and Joans God for sure. Could I add you to the mix?

 

[rinnie]

**
[SIGN]Purgatory is a place where one knows they are goin to heaven [/SIGN]and Jesus does refer to it as a prison, sorry buts its what he calls it. You have to interpret God whole word in the bible not just a couple of passages you choose to take out of context and live by.

Be happy there is a purgatory which is the Lords mercy for us so we dont go to hell

You believe in the OSAS doctrine which is the most distorted and disturbing doctrine of them all. i can see how you post… No one is guranteed heaven, if you truly knew how to interpret Gods warnings and consequences which is in the whole new testatment you would realize that in ever gospel he warns us with consequences if we continue in sin and do not abide in him… Grace does not place us above Gods laws and or commandments. Anyone can fall from grace at ay moment.

If you continue and remain steadfast, and in a state of grace.

I think its not worth my time to explain purgatory to you at this point, since I see you do profess the OSAS doctrine.

Actually Joan if I may its not really a place but a state. But I always say place too. But I think the reason (this is my thinking now not the teachings of the CC) that you soul is more of a state also, you know what I mean? So Purgatory to me is more of a state of mind where you soul is. To me its where I agree with you, you know you will be received into heaven, but as scripture says there is a final cleansing, you get it there.

I personally think its where we are very sorry for our sins. (gotta be) but we not only get cleansed from them, its like a special trip God takes us on to give us better understanding of the hurt we have done in our lives to others. Its like we can see the other side the suffering others can do because of us. In this world we know how others sins can harm us, but I think its kinda of the flip side. And its torture not in a physical sense, more mental I think. Because its easier to suffer in this world and accept it because of someone else harming you. Then to watch another suffer in the next becasue of the harm you caused.

Thats just what I think the cleansing is. And when you watch and see the Peoples lives you have maybe changed, and done great harm, maybe not even realizing it at the time, it really changes a person. And once you see that you would never be that person again.

Thats why I think its the final cleansing because you see what you have done, and have time to really think about it.And while you have been granted forgiveness you still have to forgive yourself. Thats where the time comes in. That takes alot of Grace from God to get. Thats why our prayers are so important for them because the more you pray for someone the more Grace they can get. Just my opinion of course here though.

Joann**

 

[Randy_Carson]

That’s only a general statement. True believers “will not come into judgment but have passed out of death into life” (Jn. 5:24; cf. Jn. 3:18). Also there will be a generation of believers that will not experience physical death at all (1 Cor. 15:51; cf. 1 Thess. 4:14-18)No, according to the text.The text gives us no clue.

You’re still stacking your bricks on sand, Randy.It’s not recorded that Paul prayed at all, and we’re not given the words of Peter’s prayer. Your sand keeps shifting, Randy.

Hardly. My house is built upon the rock.

I’m trying to help you “get it” but it you don’t (or won’t), that doesn’t say anything about the foundation of my faith.

Now, the Bible says of heaven, “Nothing unclean shall enter it” (Rev. 21:27).You see, God is perfect holiness (cf. Is. 6:3), and we’re supposed to have that same holiness: “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect” (Matt. 5:48). “As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy’” (1 Pet. 1:15–16). Without perfect holiness, we cannot see God in heaven.

If you die loving God perfectly, you will go to heaven. If you die not loving God, you go to hell. But if you die loving God somewhere in between, you may be forgiven, but you are not perfect nor ready to enter heaven. The place or state where we are perfected is called purgatory.

Since the Bible speaks of prayer for the dead, we know that such a place must exist.

"Therefore he made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin? (2 Macc. 12:44-45)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, and that’s exactly what the text states. If the true believer is at home in the body he’s absent from the Lord. If he’s at home with the Lord he’s absent from the body (that is, until the future resurrection or translation, which ever he/she may experience).

Reread the verse. It says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord (King James Version). “We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (Revised Standard Version). “We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (New International Version).

Notice what these don’t say: that to be absent from the body is the same thing as being with the Lord. If they did, they’d refute not only purgatory but also hell. What Paul is saying is that he’d like to leave this world and be with Christ in heaven. He doesn’t say anything, either way, about passing through purgatory on the way to being with the Lord. Someone can say, “I want to be out of California and back in Kansas” without denying you have to pass through the intervening states to accomplish that.

There is nothing in the passage that guarantees that “true believers” will enter directly into God’s presence immediately…the verse merely reflects Paul’s desire.

 

[joann1957]

rinnie:
Its a state where we are fully aware of where we are and what we did. One is in full consciousness…

Jo Ann