purgatory

[Randy_Carson]

The text makes the definite statement that when the true believer dies he is AT HOME WITH THE LORD.

Show me.

“When I die, I’d prefer to be with the Lord.” Yeah, me too, Paul. But that’s not the same as, “When I die, I WILL be at home with the Lord instantaneously.”

 

[rinnie]

MD if your sins were paid in full by another what does this scripture mean?

It is not anyone who says to me Lord Lord who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my father in heaven.

If you correct why does matt 24:13 say those who perserve to the end will be saved.

You said you sins were paid in full by another. Matt says thats not true, Hebrews say if we sin after receiving the truth judgment remains. Again hebrews disagrees with you also.

1 Cor really disagrees with you. Those think they are secure may fall. How is that possible according to what you said. You said our sins are paid in full and we can not sin.

Tell me did Jesus did for everyone or certain people? According to the word he died so all could be saved. So why is there hell then? Because if he paid for our sins in full why does hell exist?

 

[moondweller]

Prayers for the dead the bible is full of it

(Edited)

1 cor 15:29 Paul baptises for the dead

That verse doesn’t actually state that Paul baptized anyone for the dead. Nor is baptizing prayers.

2 tim. Paul asks for prayers and mercy on his dead friend.

No he doesn’t. We don’t actually know if Onesiphorus was dead; and Paul is speaking to Timothy about him, not God.

1 Peter Jesus preached to the spirts in prison

(1) What does this have to do with prayers for the dead? (2) The word used is better translated “proclaimed,” not “preached.” It says Jesus made proclamation to “spirits in prison,” not souls. Men are never called “spirits” in Scripture.

Now why would we have to pray for the dead if there is only heaven or hell.

Because you Catholics refuse to believe that Jesus made purification of sin on the cross through His blood (Heb. 1:3b), and have added your doctrine of “Purgatory.”

Are you saying just because I pray for my family in purgatory God will not listen to my prayers and my prayers cannot become a miracle as pauls did.

Do you pray to God that He’ll bring them out of your so-called Purgatory and bring them back to life? For any prayers to be answered they must be according to the will of God. Purgatory is not the will of God but the will of men.

Are you saying death separates us from Christ and eachother? Is our God not the God of the living not the dead.

He is the God of the living. What does this have to do with proving the existence of Catholic Purgatory?

And why does the bible speak of a Cleansing fire,

I told you before, the Bible doesn’t mention any “cleansing fire.”

and a eternal fire?

That’s Hell

Why does luke speak of a Chaff he will burn in unquenchable fire

“Chaff” refers to unbelievers.

and Matt talk of eternal punishment.

Again, Hell. You’re getting quite confused here, rinnie. You’re just rambling now.

Why does 1 cor. 3:10 say if someones work is burning up the person will be saved but only throught fire?

Catholic Purgatory isn’t about “saving” anyone. In context the believer who suffers loss of reward will still remain saved, even though he suffers loss of rewards. His salvation was gifted through personal faith in Christ, not fire.

So how could this be. Unless there are 2 different kinds of fire. Would you not agree. Eternal and temporal.

I certainly would not.

Or do you not acknowledge hell?

I do acknowledge Hell, but not Purgatory.

You can’t have it both ways you know.

I don’t claim to.

But now you explain to me how If someone work is burned up they will be saved?

Because no one is ever saved by works:Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Where is the work being burned up? In hell?

No. At the time of the judgment seat of Christ, which is all in the context of receiving rewards (or not) for valued works, not cleansing a soul of sins. The fire is figurative for Divine appraisal. The cleansing of sins was accomplished, once for all, by precious blood; not in the future by fire. That’s a different “gospel.”

 

[paul_c]

Moondweller,
I surmise that the main reason you don’t want to beleive in Purgatory is that doing so is contradictory to Sola fide and OSAS. After all, why would you have to purge away your sins if Jesus did that for you on the Cross and if you were saved upon belief?

The problem is that Sola Fide and OSAS are twin heresies that are are rebutted dozens of times in Scripture. I recognize that it is compelling for some to lay their salvation at the feet of Jesus, renouncing all responsibility to follow in his footsteps. After all, Jesus was crucified. But the fact is, the entirety of scripture is a call to love as God loved. Yet, you deny this by saying that Faith is the only thing that matters in eternal life. Worse yet, you believe that a one time demonstration of faith is all that is necessary for salvation and that a lifetime of apostacy following that one time statement of faith would be wiped clean by the precious blood of Jesus. In fact, you make sin totally meaningless in the economy of salvation. For you there is no need to purge away man’s sinful nature, because Jesus declared it null and void through his sacrifice. Problem is, Jesus never said that.

Your entire theology is based not on Christ, but on a misreading of Paul. In his Epistles, Paul often talks about the need to have Faith in Christ. And we all agree that it is required for salvation. But that’s not all Paul says. He constantly lectures on the need to live a Christian life - there is a section in every major epistle dedicated to that. He talks about the need to love. In 1Corinthians 13, he states unequivocally that love is more important than faith. He talks about the need to do good works to be saved… He talks about the need to persevere in those good works. Look what he says in Romans 2:

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

Is it Faith that Paul uses to distinguish those that will go to heaven or hell? No, it is perseverence in good works. This simply can not be denied or ignored. There are similar messages sprinkled througout the epistles, yet you ignor them when declaring that Faith alone is required for salvation. Before you can understand the nature and teaching of prugatory, you must understand that God calls us to true holiness, not just imputed holiness and getting there is a lifelong process (and for most, it requires purgatory as well).

 

[rinnie]

Sorry there MD not gonna let you off the hook so easy.

Okay Please explain to me the scripture 1 Cor 3:10-16. It says the person can be saved but only through fire. How can that be. Are you saying heaven is a saving fire. Or are you saying a person can go to hell and be saved. Answer that for me first.

In 2 Mac 12:36 -46 The bodies have been laid to rest and under their tunics Objects dedicated to the idols of Jamnia which the law prohibits to jews. It became clear that this is why they lost their lives. Now why did they give themsleves up to prayer begging that the sin committed might be completely forgiven? They knew quite well that they were in sin, so why did they pray for them if they did not think that the prayers offered up for their dead may be released from their sin?

What prison is Matt 5:25 talking about? Where is it? You know the one that you will not be released from until every penny is paid.

Back to Onesiphorus. Then are you saying he was not dead? Is that what you are saying, and you are denying that Paul was asking for prayers for his dead friend?

 

[clmowry]

The question was what does the resuscitation of a dead man have to do with proving the existence of Purgatory? What’s the direct connection?

I said “resuscitation” because “resurrection” has to do with the glorified body. Only the Son of Man has been bodily resurrected. The resurrection of the righteous in Christ is yet to occur.

Ok I’m still confused?

I “think” this translates into yes I agree he was miraculously raised from the dead, but it’s hard to tell.

Yes?

No?

Chuck

 

[adriancombe]

Actually, you’re the one who is attempting to commit the eisegesis. Paul speaks of ONLY TWO places: “at home in the body,” or “at home with the Lord.” There is no third of which Paul speaks. The conclusion that one is either at home in the body or at home with the Lord is based strictly on exegesis. The “pitfall of eisegesis” is yours. It’s what Catholic Purgatory is based on.

For instance, it is being argued here that a prayer is said to resuscitate someone back from the dead and that prayer is suppose to somehow lead to the conclusion of the existence of Purgatory. Ain’t gonna happen.

You are making my point for me. You are assuming the third state does not exist simply because it was not mentioned. If you assume that for Paul’s writings, you must, to be consistent, do so in all other instances, e.g. the kid in school. But obviously you don’t, so you aren’t consistent. You have to assume there is no third state in order to prove it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The text makes the definite statement that when the true believer dies he is AT HOME WITH THE LORD. The text presents no other options.

Nope.

Paul said, “We…prefer…to be absent from the body…and…at home with the Lord.”

Someone else might easily say, “Great, Paul, but I prefer to to absent from the body and in Cancun.”

Paul prefers A and B - two things not one.

He prefers to be A) absent from the body and B) at home with the Lord.

But it is possible to be A) absent from the body and C) in hell.

It might also be possible to be A) absent from the body and D) in purgatory for a temporary stay before moving on to B).

Fact is, the passage does not make your case against purgatory nor mine for purgatory.

 

[JustaServant]

Sin is like a dirty bomb. When committed, it has all sorts of residual effects. The work of Jesus on the cross removes the sin, but does not clean up the mess caused by it.
Purgatory is a cleansing. How long does it take? When compared to eternity, it is the blink of an eye. God’s grace and mercy does that cleansing. Let’s suppose that you were playing in the sewers all day. God’s servant comes along, invites you to the wedding feast and gives you the wedding garment (Cross of Jesus). Do you put on the wedding garment and go directly to the feast, or do you take a shower first? If you don’t take the shower, you will definitely have an air about you.

 

[moondweller]

Simple but you can’t seem to see it. Do you agree that we can pray for the dead, and does scripture prove people prayed for the dead. Yes O.T. and N.T. Now if you agree with that why would we pray for souls in hell, they cannot reach heaven. And why would we pray for souls in heaven they are already there?

I don’t see examples in Scripture of men praying for those who ARE dead. Certainly the miracle, to the glory of God, of some coming back FROM the dead, but no Apostolic example or instruction for us to pray for those who ARE dead.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I don’t see examples in Scripture of men praying for those who ARE dead. Certainly the miracle, to the glory of God, of some coming back FROM the dead, but no Apostolic example or instruction for us to pray for those who ARE dead.

Peter prayed for Tabitha and raised her from the dead.

She was absent the body…a pity Peter pulled her back from being at home with the Lord.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t see examples in Scripture of men praying for those who ARE dead. Certainly the miracle, to the glory of God, of some coming back FROM the dead, but no Apostolic example or instruction for us to pray for those who ARE dead.

I did in post 263. You just choose to ignore it. Read it again!

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller,
I surmise that the main reason you don’t want to beleive in Purgatory is that doing so is contradictory to Sola fide and OSAS.

After all my posts on the subject how could you come up with this conclusion? What does Catholic Purgatory have to do with getting saved? It’s about cleansing of sins (venial) through personal suffering.

But you do present a good core question:

After all, why would you have to purge away your sins if Jesus did that for you on the Cross and if you were saved upon belief?

Christ DID make purification of sins. This is why I cannot accept Catholic Purgatory. And that’s why I think Catholics should reject it as well. The other being that it has no Divine support.

The problem is that Sola Fide and OSAS are twin heresies that are are rebutted dozens of times in Scripture. I recognize that it is compelling for some to lay their salvation at the feet of Jesus, renouncing all responsibility to follow in his footsteps.

I have made no such statement. The responsibility of all the saved is to follow Jesus. But they were first saved through believing in Him.

After all, Jesus was crucified. But the fact is, the entirety of scripture is a call to love as God loved. Yet, you deny this by saying that Faith is the only thing that matters in eternal life.

I have never denied that the saved are to love one another. This is, in fact, Christ’s new commandment to the saved (Jn. 13:34). But Jesus Himself also taught the what matters for eternal life is belief in Him. That those who believe in Him have eternal life, that life being in Him:John 3:12-18 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (i.e., the cross); so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Worse yet, you believe that a one time demonstration of faith is all that is necessary for salvation and that a lifetime of apostacy following that one time statement of faith would be wiped clean by the precious blood of Jesus.

I don’t believe anyone is saved by any “demonstration of faith.” I believe as the Scriptures state that one has been “saved by grace through faith.” (Eph. 2:8). That faith in Christ is an act of the heart (Rom. 10:10) and God, who Himself saves upon such faith, knows the heart (Acts 15:8).

One cannot wipe away apostasy. A lifetime of apostasy would be a lifetime of believing and teaching that personal works play a part in saving someone: “…the gift of God, not as a result of works.” Salvation by any works other than Christ’s is a departure from the gospel. Such a belief would, in fact, be a form of unbelief. Apostasy IS unbelief.

In fact, you make sin totally meaningless in the economy of salvation.

Sin is never meaningless. But God has made sin, through the once for all sin sacrifice of the incarnate Son, a non-factor in this economy of Divine GRACE in respect to salvation. And that’s because He came to put away sin through the sacrifice of Himself.Heb 9:26 “*Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”*."Men are now called into salvation “by grace through faith” in Him.

For you there is no need to purge away man’s sinful nature, because Jesus declared it null and void through his sacrifice. Problem is, Jesus never said that.

A sinful “nature” cannot be purged away by fire. Man’s sinful nature is connected to Adam. What is revealed in the Scriptures is that all who the believer was “in Adam” was crucified with Christ, once for all. And the true believer is now forever identified “in Christ,” the RISEN Christ. In Whom he is now “freed from sin,” having died “to sin” with Him (Rom. 6). As Paul proclaimed to his Jewish brethren:Acts 13:38-39 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.“Because you see, Paul,”…the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ” (Jn. 1:17).The truth of the gospel is God’s infinite grace toward us though faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ alone.

 

[Thing]

Jesus said in Matthew 5 "…and thou be cast into prison.
26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.’

So where is this prison; and what is the very last farthing the person repays before being released.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

After all my posts on the subject how could you come up with this conclusion? W[SIGN]hat does Catholic Purgatory have to do with getting saved? [/SIGN] It’s about cleansing of sins (venial) through personal suffering.

But you do present a good core question:Christ DID make purification of sins. This is why I cannot accept Catholic Purgatory. And that’s why I think Catholics should reject it as well. The other being that it has no Divine support.I have made no such statement. The responsibility of all the saved is to follow Jesus. But they were first saved through believing in Him.I have never denied that the saved are to love one another. This is, in fact, Christ’s new commandment to the saved (Jn. 13:34). But Jesus Himself also taught the what matters for eternal life is belief in Him. That those who believe in Him have eternal life, that life being in Him:John 3:12-18 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (i.e., the cross); so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."I don’t believe anyone is saved by any “demonstration of faith.” I believe as the Scriptures state that one has been “saved by grace through faith.” (Eph. 2:8). That faith in Christ is an act of the heart (Rom. 10:10) and God, who Himself saves upon such faith, knows the heart (Acts 15:8).

One cannot wipe away apostasy. A lifetime of apostasy would be a lifetime of believing and teaching that personal works play a part in saving someone: “…the gift of God, not as a result of works.” Salvation by any works other than Christ’s is a departure from the gospel. Such a belief would, in fact, be a form of unbelief. Apostasy IS unbelief.Sin is never meaningless. But God has made sin, through the once for all sin sacrifice of the incarnate Son, a non-factor in this economy of Divine GRACE in respect to salvation. And that’s because He came to put away sin through the sacrifice of Himself.Heb 9:26 “Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”."Men are now called into salvation “by grace through faith” in Him.A sinful “nature” cannot be purged away by fire. Man’s sinful nature is connected to Adam. What is revealed in the Scriptures is that all who the believer was “in Adam” was crucified with Christ, once for all. And the true believer is now forever identified “in Christ,” the RISEN Christ. In Whom he is now “freed from sin,” having died “to sin” with Him (Rom. 6). As Paul proclaimed to his Jewish brethren:Acts 13:38-39 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.“Because you see, Paul,”…the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ” (Jn. 1:17).The truth of the gospel is God’s infinite grace toward us though faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ alone.

No one ever said that. We said that it is the final cleaning after we have been saved. Why do you refuse to listen to what we have said. Please to back and re-read all that has been posted. It was told to you time after time that if you make it to purgatory you have been saved. Purgatory does not save you. Why do you refuse to listen to what we say.

 

[rinnie]

Wrong! The doctrine of purgatory has to do with the cleansing or purification of the temporal punishment due to sins. The sins were already forgiven.

It has been told to you time after time by many. Again you refuse to see it!

 

[moondweller]

Peter prayed for Tabitha and raised her from the dead.

She was absent the body…a pity Peter pulled her back from being at home with the Lord.

Tabitha lived before the cross of Christ. She may have been “in the bosom of Abraham” (Lk. 16:23ff) but she was not at “home with the Lord.” Men followed Christ into heaven only AFTER the gift of “propitiation for our sins” (Christ’s shed blood) was presented in the heavenly Temple before the Father (Heb. 9:11-12).

 

[moondweller]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

No one ever said that. We said that it is the final cleaning after we have been saved. Why do you refuse to listen to what we have said. Please to back and re-read all that has been posted. It was told to you time after time that if you make it to purgatory you have been saved. Purgatory does not save you. Why do you refuse to listen to what we say.

Rinnie, you simply reacted. You comprehended nothing of what I wrote in IN CONTEXT to what Paul C wrote to me.

 

[clmowry]

I think the hangup is when people talk about purgatory as punishment from God, and they assume that this means that God is inflicting suffering for the purpose of inflicting suffering. But with God, causing us suffering is never his goal. His goal is always our final and complete purification, perfection, sanctification. It is just that giving up our sin, our attachment to sin, hurts. It causes us suffering in the same sense that starting a diet and exercise regimen causes us suffering.

I think it is kind of like a spiritual work out.

Anybody who has ever been in a gym can tell you trying to get a “perfect” body just plain hurts!

You have to tear the muscle down before it can grow into something stronger than it once was.

It may seem like “punishment” at the time, but it’s for our own good.

I’m thinking getting the “fat” off our soul works in a very similar way.

He just wants us to fit into the banquet clothes He’s already made for us.

At least that’s the way my little brain sees it.

Chuck

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, you simply reacted. You comprehended nothing of what I wrote in IN CONTEXT to what Paul C wrote to me.

I just addressed you comment is all. MD you seem to think that purgatory takes away from the suffering of Jesus.

What I would like to stress to you nothing does. If it were not for Jesus suffering the Cross and freeing us from sin, there would be no purgatory. There would be no freedom from sin. Jesus opened up Heaven by his death on the cross.

When we die we get judged. We either gain eternal life or eternal death. But if we are not quite perfect at the time of our death we must become perfect. That is what purgatory is about. We have been forgiven of our sins but we must have the final cleansng. We have to let go of everything of this world and become completely Christ like. That is the reason for purgatory. At the time of death many have not completed that. We need that final cleansing to be made saints.

You have been given the scripture. But refuse to explain it. So one more time explain to me in simple terms what does the scripture mean. If someone work is burned the person will be saved but only through fire. Please again for me tell me what that means?