purgatory

[moondweller]

To Randy Carson:

Tabitha lived before the cross of Christ. She may have been “in the bosom of Abraham” (Lk. 16:23ff) but she was not at “home with the Lord.” Men followed Christ into heaven only AFTER the gift of “propitiation for our sins” (Christ’s shed blood) was presented in the heavenly Temple before the Father (Heb. 9:11-12).

OOOPS, sorry, my friend. My error. For some reason I was thinking of the child Jesus brought back from the dead.

As for episodes like, all I can say is there is a mystery involved here. They’re an anomaly and no detail is given to us. All we know is they were brought back to life here in on earth.

 

[moondweller]

If it were not for Jesus suffering the Cross and freeing us from sin, there would be no purgatory.

The fact that our sins were imputed to Christ on the cross (2 Cor. 5:21) and He died TO SIN, once for all; and the fact that it is Divinely revealed that all who personally believe in Christ are identified with His death, having also died with Him TO SIN, once for all, and are now identified with Him RISEN, leaves no room for such a place (or action, whatever) as Catholic Purgatory. And for this reason you cannot, will not, find it taught in the Scriptures.

When we die we get judged. We either gain eternal life or eternal death.

John 3:16-18 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

You have been given the scripture. But refuse to explain it. So one more time explain to me in simple terms what does the scripture mean. If someone work is burned the person will be saved but only through fire. Please again for me tell me what that means?

That passage is about a Christian workers WORKS, not his salvation. Though the works of a believer may result in no rewards, figuratively having been burned up, he himself is saved even though having gone through the fiery appraisal regarding his WORKS. The reason is his salvation was not based on his works but his belief in the finished work of Another - Jesus Christ.

It’s quite simple, Rinnie.

 

[clmowry]

The fact that our sins were imputed to Christ on the cross (2 Cor. 5:21) and He died TO SIN, once for all; and the fact that it is Divinely revealed that all who personally believe in Christ are identified with His death, having also died with Him TO SIN, once for all, and are now identified with Him RISEN, leaves no room for such a place (or action, whatever) as Catholic Purgatory. And for this reason you cannot, will not, find it taught in the Scriptures.
John 3:16-18 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
That passage is about a Christian workers WORKS, not his salvation. Though the works of a believer may result in no rewards, figuratively having been burned up, he himself is saved even though having gone through the fiery appraisal regarding his WORKS. The reason is his salvation was not based on his works but his belief in the finished work of Another - Jesus Christ.

It’s quite simple, Rinnie.

What does any of this have to do with Purgatory?

You continue to put forth positions having nothing to do with the doctrine and then assert that these positions somehow “prove” that the doctrine of purgatory is false.

Your continual logic seems to be:

A is true, therefore B is not true without providing evidence for any relationship between A and B.

If you would like to actually try and disprove purgatory from scripture, you would need to provide some compelling evidence that scripture explicitly says effectively “nothing happens to purify the soul between death and entrance into heaven” or alternatively that “the Christian soul is the same on earth as it is in heaven.”

Chuck

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
Moondweller,
I surmise that the main reason you don’t want to beleive in Purgatory is that doing so is contradictory to Sola fide and OSAS.

my point was that you can’t support Purgatory because Purgatory only would be in effect if Sin matters in the economy of salvation, which of course you deny as a believer in sola Fide. You believe that Jesus’ sacrifice cleansed all Sins for all time. however, this is not scriptural. Faith in Jesus’ sacrifice allows you to be born again (in baptism), but once you are born again, the expectation is that you will avoid sin, because sin is turning away from God. This is why Jesus can talk about being born of spirit and water in John 3 and simultaneous answer the man who asked what was required for eternal life in Matthew 19 with the statement, " follow the commandments." Both are required.

Quote: Paul c
The problem is that Sola Fide and OSAS are twin heresies that are are rebutted dozens of times in Scripture. I recognize that it is compelling for some to lay their salvation at the feet of Jesus, renouncing all responsibility to follow in his footsteps

Okay we agree taht they were first saved by believing in him and the responsibility of all the saved is to follow Jesus. Now what if they don’t live up to that responsibility and fail to follow Jesus. In Catholic theology, the result of this is damnation. In your theology, the man who beleives but does not follow Christ is still rewarded with heaven. How is that Just? And do you really think that having responsibility without ramifications makes sense in the cosmic order?

Quoteaul c
After all, Jesus was crucified. But the fact is, the entirety of scripture is a call to love as God loved. Yet, you deny this by saying that Faith is the only thing that matters in eternal life.

So why didn’t you continue the quote through verse 21:
19 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.
Notice how Jesus now shifts from Fatih to works. This is because salvation is not due to Faith alone but must include works. Come into the light where the truth will set you free.

 

[paul_c]

:

quote: Paul c
Worse yet, you believe that a one time demonstration of faith is all that is necessary for salvation and that a lifetime of apostacy following that one time statement of faith would be wiped clean by the precious blood of Jesus.

I stand corrected, I should have said a statement of faith, rather than a demonstration of faith. of course, one is saved by grace through Faith. that is not the debate. The question is whether a simple onetime statement of Faith represents a “get-out of hell free” card for the remainder of your life, no matter what you do or what you say or what you believe subsequently. Salvation is not the result of works. Salvation is the result of Faith, Hope and Love, which are demonstrated by what you do, and as St. Paul says. The greatest of these is Love (1Cor 13). If you don’t have love, Faith is dead and is like a clanging gong.

Quote: paul c
In fact, you make sin totally meaningless in the economy of salvation.

Can’t you see the contradiction when you say that sin is not meaningless it is just a non-factor in the economy of salvation. You need to reconsider how you interpret that passage. You see, Jesus conquered sin by his passion and cross and all that follow him, also conquer sin. But if all you do is say you believe, but still sin, how have you conquered sin? In fact you are a slave to sin in that case. In fact, you must do good works and become holy to conquer. Jesus told us how and gives us the grace to be successful through the sacraments, but we still have to conquer sin ourselves to get to heaven.

Quoteaul c
For you there is no need to purge away man’s sinful nature, because Jesus declared it null and void through his sacrifice. Problem is, Jesus never said that.

Nothing in your quote says that you are freed from future sin. As described above, when we are baptized, we are born again, free from any previous sin and given the graces to conquer future sin. However, we still need to carry out our part, and cooperate with those graces so that we can indeed conquer sin and become holy, as the Lord is holy. And if we can’t achieve perfect holiness on earth, we can be cleansed in Purgatory.

---

In Christ,
MD

 

[rinnie]

What does any of this have to do with Purgatory?

You continue to put forth positions having nothing to do with the doctrine and then assert that these positions somehow “prove” that the doctrine of purgatory is false.

Your continual logic seems to be:

A is true, therefore B is not true without providing evidence for any relationship between A and B.

If you would like to actually try and disprove purgatory from scripture, you would need to provide some compelling evidence that scripture explicitly says effectively “nothing happens to purify the soul between death and entrance into heaven” or alternatively that “the Christian soul is the same on earth as it is in heaven.”

Chuck

Thank-you. This is what she continues to do.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

The fact that our sins were imputed to Christ on the cross (2 Cor. 5:21) and He died TO SIN, [SIGN]once for all;[/SIGN] and the fact that it is Divinely revealed that all who personally believe in Christ are identified with His death, having also died with Him TO SIN, once for all, and are now identified with Him RISEN, leaves no room for such a place (or action, whatever) as Catholic Purgatory. And for this reason you cannot, will not, find it taught in the Scriptures.John 3:16-18 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."That passage is about a Christian workers WORKS, not his salvation. Though the works of a believer may result in no rewards, figuratively having been burned up, he himself is saved even though having gone through the fiery appraisal regarding his WORKS. The reason is his salvation was not based on his works but his belief in the finished work of Another - Jesus Christ.

It’s quite simple, Rinnie.

Yes it is MD. Jesus died on the Cross once and for all. And free us from Original SIn. We can no longer be held accountable for the sin or Adam and Eve. I agree with Baptism we are free from Original sin. BUt what in the world does original sin have to do with actual sin. Are you saying that once we are free from orginal sin, sin no longer exists or what? We still have the remains of original sin in us. OR are you denying that. Are you saying when Jesus wiped out O sin we no longer have the effects in us. Which by effects I mean the urge to sin anyway. Because quite honestly I have no idea what else you could possibly be taking about. When you say we were free from sin once and for all. of original sin I agree. But you lost me after that.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I stand corrected, I should have said a statement of faith, rather than a demonstration of faith. of course, one is saved by grace through Faith. that is not the debate. The question is whether a simple onetime statement of Faith represents a “get-out of hell free” card for the remainder of your life, no matter what you do or what you say or what you believe subsequently. Salvation is not the result of works. Salvation is the result of Faith, Hope and Love, which are demonstrated by what you do, and as St. Paul says. The greatest of these is Love (1Cor 13). If you don’t have love, Faith is dead and is like a clanging gong.

Can’t you see the contradiction when you say that sin is not meaningless it is just a non-factor in the economy of salvation. You need to reconsider how you interpret that passage. You see, Jesus conquered sin by his passion and cross and all that follow him, also conquer sin. But if all you do is say you believe, but still sin, how have you conquered sin? In fact you are a slave to sin in that case. In fact, you must do good works and become holy to conquer. Jesus told us how and gives us the grace to be successful through the sacraments, but we still have to conquer sin ourselves to get to heaven.

[SIGN]Nothing in your quote says that you are freed from future sin. [/SIGN]As described above, when we are baptized, we are born again, free from any previous sin and given the graces to conquer future sin. However, we still need to carry out our part, and cooperate with those graces so that we can indeed conquer sin and become holy, as the Lord is holy. And if we can’t achieve perfect holiness on earth, we can be cleansed in Purgatory.

---

In Christ,
MD

Thank-you Paul

 

[moondweller]

What does any of this have to do with Purgatory?

Nothing. It has to do with why Purgatory does not, can not. exist; and it is not found in the Scriptures.

If you would like to actually try and disprove purgatory from scripture, you would need to provide some compelling evidence that scripture explicitly says effectively “nothing happens to purify the soul between death and entrance into heaven” or alternatively that “the Christian soul is the same on earth as it is in heaven.”

Actually, since the teaching of Catholic Purgatory is not found in the Scriptures it’s your burden to prove its existence. So far, Catholics on this thread have merely asserted its existence and have poured Rome’s fully formed doctrine of it into verses they say merely imply its existence.

 

[moondweller]

Thank-you. This is what she continues to do.

Who’s “she?”

 

[moondweller]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Yes it is MD. Jesus died on the Cross once and for all. And free us from Original SIn. We can no longer be held accountable for the sin or Adam and Eve. I agree with Baptism we are free from Original sin. BUt what in the world does original sin have to do with actual sin. Are you saying that once we are free from orginal sin, sin no longer exists or what? We still have the remains of original sin in us. OR are you denying that. Are you saying when Jesus wiped out O sin we no longer have the effects in us. Which by effects I mean the urge to sin anyway.

What I quoted is Divine revelation about the believer in Christ who does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life. It’s not about “original sin” but the sinner himself. Nor is it about removing the “urge to sin,”

Because quite honestly I have no idea what else you could possibly be taking about. When you say we were free from sin once and for all. of original sin I agree. But you lost me after that.

I know I lost you. For starters I never said a true believer is free from sinning, but now in Christ is “freed from sin” having died TO SIN with Christ. His eternal relationship to sin (now in the risen Christ) is the same as Christ’s, dead to it. But, actually, I didn’t say that, Paul did by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

These truths are based on Divine revelation concerning the cross of Christ and the true believer; and they’re not addressed to experience but to FAITH. Divine revelation is what true Christianity is all about. It’s what it’s based on. It’s what separates it from all religions and cults of men.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

These truths are based on Divine revelation concerning the cross of Christ and the true believer; and they’re not addressed to experience but to FAITH. Divine revelation is what true Christianity is all about. It’s what it’s based on. It’s what separates it from all religions and cults of men.

Correct. Divine Revelation comes from the Church of Christ. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, with Jesus as the Head.

 

[moondweller]

Nothing in your quote says that you are freed from future sin.

Which of your and my sins imputed to Christ at the time of His sacrifice on the cross were not “future?”

As described above, when we are baptized, we are born again, free from any previous sin and given the graces to conquer future sin. However, we still need to carry out our part, and cooperate with those graces so that we can indeed conquer sin and become holy, as the Lord is holy. And if we can’t achieve perfect holiness on earth, we can be cleansed in Purgatory.

All I can say to this is what was said to Peter by a voice from heaven itself:"‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’" (Acts 11:9)Peter believed and obeyed.

 

[clmowry]

Nothing. It has to do with why Purgatory does not, can not. exist; and it is not found in the Scriptures.Actually, since the teaching of Catholic Purgatory is not found in the Scriptures it’s your burden to prove its existence. So far, Catholics on this thread have merely asserted its existence and have poured Rome’s fully formed doctrine of it into verses they say merely imply its existence.

So essentially you have no scriptural support for your denial of the doctrine.

What you have instead, is an a priori denial of the Catholic Doctrine based on the a priori requirement that Scripture must be used to prove all Doctrine.

This you combine with continual dodging of discussing those things found in scripture that lead Catholics to believe that the doctrine of Purgatory is implicitly required by Scripture.

i.e. The efficacy of prayer for the Dead and transition from a sinful earthly nature to a perfected heavenly nature.

What part of your postion am I missing?

Chuck

 

[moondweller]

Correct. Divine Revelation comes from the Church of Christ. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, with Jesus as the Head.

Actually, Divine revelation comes from the Holy Spirit Himself. Jesus said to His Apostles:John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.And the truths He taught them and brought to their remembrance were preserved for future generations in theopneustos (God-breathed) Scriptures. The job of the church is to support these doctrines, those that were Divinely revealed, not make up its own.

 

[moondweller]

So essentially you have no scriptural support for your denial of the doctrine.

What you have instead, is an a priori denial of the Catholic Doctrine based on the a priori requirement that Scripture must be used to prove all Doctrine.

This you combine with continual dodging of discussing those things found in scripture that lead Catholics to believe that the doctrine of Purgatory is implicitly required by Scripture.

i.e. The efficacy of prayer for the Dead and transition from a sinful earthly nature to a perfected heavenly nature.

What part of your postion am I missing?

Chuck

What you’re missing, Chuck, is the ludicrous idea of telling someone to disprove by Scripture that which Scripture does not reveal, but is merely asserted by men.

 

[clmowry]

Which of your and my sins imputed to Christ at the time of His sacrifice on the cross were not "future?"All I can say to this is what was said to Peter by a voice from heaven itself:
“‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’” (Acts 11:9)
Peter believed and obeyed.

This appears to me to be an attempt to show that the believer is already “perfected” on earth and that purification before entering heaven is therefore not required.

Is that the position you are advocating?

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

What you’re missing, Chuck, is the ludicrous idea of telling someone to disprove by Scripture that which Scripture does not reveal, but is merely asserted by men.

I asked you to do no such thing. You are correct, that would be silly.

If scripture is silent on a subject, then it is silent on a subject. All you have to do is say so.

Similarly, I have not made the claim that “Purgatory” is explicit in scripture.

You are the one who keeps tossing out scriptures and doctrines not dealing with Purgatory that you contend somehow disprove Purgatory.

Scripture is however explicit in teaching that we are not perfect on earth and that we need to be perfect to be in heaven.

Based on this and many other truths, Tradition and the Teaching Authority of the Church we have a Doctrine that deals with this issue.

You seem to have chosen to ignore it, and that’s fine for you, but it does not invalidate the Churches teaching.

Chuck

 

[moondweller]

This appears to me to be an attempt to show that the believer is already “perfected” on earth and that purification before entering heaven is therefore not required.

Is that the position you are advocating?

Chuck

Define your use of the word “perfected.” Have you read my posts? I think I’ve made my “position” (you’d understand the pun if you’ve read my posts) quite clear.

 

[PRmerger]

moondweller, this thread is moving fast but I don’t believe you addressed adriancombe’s post and I am eager to read your response:

**Originally Posted by moondweller **
Everything we need to know about “the faith” (this side of the cross) was recorded and preserved in the theopneustos, N.T. Scriptures.

Originally Posted by adriancombe
Good! Please direct me to the chapter and verse that tells me which books should be in the Bible. I am especially interested in the ones that indicate whether to include the deuterocanonicals, not to mention those works specific to the Ethiopian canon, e.g. the Sinodos, the Book of the Covenant and the Didascalia.