purgatory

[guanophore]

Paul declares that suffering is an important part of our growth and maturity as Christians. Consequently, if suffering at the beginning of our walk with Christ does not take away from the sufficiency of the Cross, why should any suffering at the end of our journey to our heavenly home be thought to do so?

This is a very good point, and I thank you for making it. I think our Reformed brethren have a deficient understanding of the role of suffering in sanctification.

 

[guanophore]

Because you just stated it yourself, Randy. Suffering has to do with the growth and maturity (if endured in faith) of the Christian (defined as one who has personally BELIEVED the Word of God concerning Christ). It has absolutely nothing to do with purifying a Christian of sins.

You seem very confused about the doctrine of Purgatory, Moon. You keep saying “purification of sins”, and this seems like a deliberate misrepresentation. Of course all of our sins have already been purified. There is nothing we can do to pay the eternal price of our sins against God. Jesus paid for them all on the cross. What remains are the effects of those sins, which often result in suffering.

It is the PERSON, who is purified in Purgatory, not the sins. The effects, any attachments that leave us incompletely sanctified are burned away like dross from the gold. The PERSON is saved, but only as through fire. Any works that person did that do not have eternal value are separated from him.

There’s only ONE Man who ever suffered (and died) for that, and it wasn’t done in the afterlife, but right here on earth in a real place in time and history. It wasn’t His own sins of which He made purification, but ours. Everyone one of them. And it wasn’t by “purifying fire,” but shed blood. This according to Divine revelation - to be BELIEVED in unto salvation.

Yes, and it is this payment of our eternal debt that makes us eligible, by faith in HIm, to be purified and made fit for heaven. Nothing unclean can enter heaven.

 

[guanophore]

Randy, you repeatedly ask for references and I gave the citations, all catholic sources, one from a handbook for the catholic clergy and you said: That’s not a catholic source! I quoted accurately, giving credit to each source and you cry: foul!

Thank you for citing your sources.

Anyone can write a “Handbook for Catholic Clergy”. That does not consititute Catholic Teaching. 2nd,Adam, who has recently been giving instructions on CAF to us Catholics about what we should believe, practice, read, etc. himself could write a “Handbook about how Catholic Members of CAF should do”. Such a book would not constitute Catholic Teaching.

 

[moondweller]

It is the PERSON, who is purified in Purgatory, not the sins.

Proof?Heb 10:14 “For by one offering He has perfected for all time (lit. in perpetuity) those who are sanctified.”

Heb. 1:3b "When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."Whose sins do you think those are, guanophore, of which Christ made “purification?”

The effects, any attachments

“Effects,” "attachments," these words are nonsensical in light of who the believer now is in the risen Christ, according to the Scriptures. There are no “effects” or “attachments” to sin in the risen Christ, are there? Then nor are there “effects” and “attachments” to those who “died TO SIN” with Christ and are now “in Him” risen.

that leave us incompletely sanctified

Being now “in Christ,” it is impossible for one to be “incompletely” sanctified.Heb 10:10 "By this will we have been sanctified (how?) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."According to GOD’S WORD, the true believer is completely sanctified by His will, not through “purifying fires” in the afterlife, but through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ- once for all. You’re actually stating that Christ’s sacrificial work is not sufficient and leaves the believer incomplete to the point that he himself must finish what Christ, through His sacrificial work, could not.

are burned away like dross from the gold.

The true believer is now in the risen Christ. What “dross” must be yet burned away from the risen Christ in whom the true believer is now eternally identified?

The PERSON is saved, but only as through fire.

The “fire” in that passage has to do with the future judgment of the believer’s WORKS. Not the “person.” The "gold, “silver” and “precious stones” describe the believer’s WORKS which are not combustible and therefore qualify for REWARD. Other WORKS described, figuratively, as “wood,” “hay” and “straw,” are completely combustible and do not remain. Hence, do not qualify for REWARD.

NONE of this has to do with “sins,” which were dealt with, once for all, by sacrificial blood. The ONLY way God has revealed in His Word that He ever deals with sin. Going all the way back to where blood was shed in order to properly clothes Adam and Eve. Their own efforts to clothe themselves with fig leaves wouldn’t do. Compared to the idea that one can be purified of the so-called, “effects” and “attachments” to sin by his own suffering. That too won’t do. God has revealed no such thing. Why? Because God Himself has dealt with sin (and all aspects of it) through ONE sacrifice, for all time.

Yes, and it is this payment of our eternal debt that makes us eligible, by faith in HIm, to be purified and made fit for heaven. Nothing unclean can enter heaven.

1 Cor 6:11 "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."There will come a time that nothing unclean will be in heaven or earth. But it’s not true that nothing unclean can enter heaven now. For now, even Satan makes an appearance before God in heaven:Job 1:6-7 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."But for us who have truly believed, it is Divinely revealed that to be absent from the body is to be home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8-9). No intermediate state is revealed. There’s simply no need for it. Since God has revealed in His word that the true believer has been “washed,” “sanctified,” and “justified” in the name of his Lord and the Spirit of his God.

**Happy Thanksgiving Guanophore!!! ** If you were to take God’s Word for it, you’ve got a lot for which to be thankful.

 

[moondweller]

Thank you for citing your sources.

Anyone can write a “Handbook for Catholic Clergy”. That does not consititute Catholic Teaching. 2nd,Adam, who has recently been giving instructions on CAF to us Catholics about what we should believe, practice, read, etc. himself could write a “Handbook about how Catholic Members of CAF should do”. Such a book would not constitute Catholic Teaching.

So you’re saying that it’s possible that a lot of your clergy have been wrongly taught? Have you seen an official edict against this handbook for clergy?

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

We all try to avoid sin. In so doing, we grow in holiness as time goes by. We are being perfected. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a “purging” of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God’s perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where “nothing unclean” can enter demands the former.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I have been saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the “burning” ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.

This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God’s love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - “purged” - away in the fire of Gods love. There’s an old children’s song, “God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way.” Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.

 

[guanophore]

I understand your concern. You have entered into a discussion on the theology and hierarchy of sin, which in full Catholic teaching is forgiven as you quoted. However, it is a case of confusing the issue when discussing the topic of Purgatory with Evangelicals. My preference is to posit that all sin (mortal and venial) is forgiven before we die, leaving only the temporal punishment due to sin, (mortal and venial) for purgatory to purify. How venial sin figures into this equation if one dies with venial sin, is for the theologians to argue. This way, the true nature of Purgatory is illustrated. My aim would be to equate Purgatory with Penance. Penance, whether done in this life, or the next (Purgatory) is primarily done for the temporal punishment due to sin. That does not negate the possibility that penance done in this life or the next, may have the effect of purifying venial sins as well. But that is another issue, best reserved for another argument.

One last note is that the wording “temporal punishment due to sins” is a theological contrivance to articulate the injury that is done to the soul by sin. These are all legal fictions, so to speak, put into words, in order to help us understand the Gospel.

Thanks Ambrose. I find this very helpful.

 

[guanophore]

As per the Bible, there’ll be no sins in heaven because Christ made purification of sins, once for all, right here on earth. After forty pages you still have not successfully addressed this Divine revelation.

I think it was a given at the start! If Jesus had not made purification for our sins, then we would not be getting prepared to enter heaven at all.

 

[guanophore]

How do Purgatorial fires guarantee you won’t sin afterward? Fire can’t change human nature. Nor do the Scriptures reveal such a thing. Human nature is changed by a completely different means: A second Man, another Adam. You fail to understand the Scriptures regarding Who Christ is now in relation to the believer, and His “finished” sacrificial work in regards to, once for all, putting away their sins.

What would make you think that purgatory would change human nature? Human nature is created to have fellowship with God. He made us for Himself. Jesus made propitiation for our sins, so that we can return to right relationship with God (that was lost in the Fall). His Spirit places a new nature within us when we are born again by water and Spirit. Though we continue throughout this life to struggle against the old nature, the good work that God has begun in us is completed when we leave this life. The process sanctification that He began in us will be completed, and we will be glorified (fit to dwell with Him in heaven).

Jesus does not change the human nature of every person, but only those who receive Him. It is only to those that He gives the power to become sons of God.

 

[panevino]

…When a true believer sins he may certainly acknowledge that sin to the Lord, repent of it (this means to turn away and go another direction), and then, in an act of true faith, thank His Father for Jesus Christ who “put away” his sin, once for all, by the sacrifice of Himself. That’s communion with God according to faith in HIS Word. Such faith actually honors Him and gives all glory to Christ…

i can certainly see what you say about ‘honors’, but is it actually obedient?

asking for forgiveness in faith is a humble act that jesus tells us to pray for.
how can we ignore jesus words of the lords prayer.

" forgivness us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…"
i mean forgetting confession to a priest, jesus actually instructs the above when asked how to pray… am i missing something… of course belief is 110% needed, but you appear to be contradicting jesus in saying that we do NOT need to ask for forginvess… but jesus told us to actually pray/ask for it…

 

[guanophore]

Moon, your abreactions to the idea of Purgatory make it appear that you have never struggled with any of the seven deadly sins. If you had, you would know that separating from our attachment to sin is a very painful process.

"The problem with this analogy, Granny, is that Jesus said to the thief (he’s not called "the good thief):Luke 23:43 "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."Not “today you shall be in Purgatory, and I’ll see you after that.” And He said that to the thief because he expressed belief in Him.

Well, we know that “Paradise”, was not either heaven or hell, since the gates of Heaven were not opened by Christ until His resurrection Scripture testifies that Jesus went that day to “prison” to release the souls of the righteous dead who had awaited HIm in hope.

I agree that Jesus made this statement because the thief expressed belief in Him. (This is why we call him the “good” thief). He did the “work of God” that is required.

How utterly disproportionate the doctrine of Purgatory is. While here on earth all the Catholic has to do is confess his sins, do some kind of penance like a specified number of “Hail Marys,” or “Our Fathers,” and those sins don’t follow him/her into Purgatory. But those unconfessed (venial) sins that do follow must be “expiated” (atoned for?) through personal torments and excruciating suffering. :frighten:

Again you seem to have no clue what it means to have attachment to sin. You must be a very pure man.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

The true believer is now in the risen Christ. What “dross” must be yet burned away from the risen Christ in whom the true believer is now eternally identified?

So then, you are saying that a “true believer” is perfect with no dross. But how does one distinguish a “true believer” from just a plain “believer?” You seem to put emphasis on the fact that this is not just a “believer” but a “true believer.” What separates the two? Do you decide? Does one decide for oneself? If God decides, how do we know what HE decides? Does the fact that the “true believer” has committed a sin, now prove that he was NEVER a “true believer” but just a plain “believer?” Does a person go back and forth in this life from being a “true believer” to just a plain “believer?”

 

[guanophore]

Do you know what the sin unto death is? If you did, you would know that one cannot repent of it, so no amount of time in “purgatory” will ever suffice.

Mortal sins (unto death) are those actions that are against the life of faith in Christ. They are so serious that they bar access of sanctifying grace in the soul.

The sin unto death is like what happened to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-10 It is deliberate, willful, continuous, unrepentant sin. There comes a point when God will no longer allow a person to continue in unrepentant sin. When this point is reached, God sometimes decides to punish the person, even to the point of taking his or her life.

This is a very good explanation of moral sin.

There may come a time when God will no longer hear prayers for a person who continues in his sins for whom He has determined that judgment is due. It is difficult to realize there are times when it is just too late to pray for a person. God is good and just, and we will just have to let Him decide when it is too late.

Such a state of sin needs more than just prayer.

 

[Pilgrim123]

I haven’t read through the whole post but what about Christians who are alive at the time of Christ’s return at the great white throne judgment. Rev. 20:11 There are two classes of people: those whose names are written in the book of life and who enter heaven and those whose names were not written in the book of life and who were judged and were thrown into the lake of fire. So what happens to the purification of those Christains who hadn’t gone to purgatory to be ‘purged’ since they were still alive upon Christ’s return? Purgatory is not even mentioned. Wouldn’t that negate the theology of purgatory?

On a side note, each person was judge according to the works or deeds they had done. Nothing is mentioned about belief in God or forgiveness of prior sinful works but were judged according to the works they had done throughout life?

 

[guanophore]

Are you really seeking the truth or have you chosen a denomination and try to make your theology fit. Again, please don’t respond with another Catholic complaint. I’m looking for some introspection on your part.

Well, don’t hold your breath there, bmw. Moon is not here to learn anything, but just to refute what he sees as wrong doctrines within the Catholic Church.

Are you really being honest to yourself in your reading of the Bible and your theology?

I really do think that Moon is being honest with himself with his bible and theology. He uses himself as the standard, and his understanding of what scripture says (screened through his theology) all fit very honestly together.

I think a small part of you knows what you are doing. You might not admit it, or think about it, or let it out in the light of day, but a small part somewhere in the back of your mind really thinks about these things and is challenging you. Keep in mind, I’m not insulting you, we all do this to some extent. But to blatantly miss the point of the story of the Good Samaritan really, really surprised me.

It is curious that he is here. After all this time, and it has been made clear to him about the doctrine of the faith. He still sticks around for some reaons. He sure has not won any converts.

 

[brb2]

Proof?Heb 10:14 “For by one offering He has perfected for all time (lit. in perpetuity) those who are sanctified.”

Heb. 1:3b "When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.“Whose sins do you think those are, guanophore, of which Christ made “purification?”“Effects,” "attachments,” these words are nonsensical in light of who the believer now is in the risen Christ, according to the Scriptures. There are no “effects” or “attachments” to sin in the risen Christ, are there? Then nor are there “effects” and “attachments” to those who “died TO SIN” with Christ and are now “in Him” risen.Being now “in Christ,” it is impossible for one to be “incompletely” sanctified.Heb 10:10 "By this will we have been sanctified (how?) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."According to GOD’S WORD, the true believer is completely sanctified by His will, not through “purifying fires” in the afterlife, but through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ- once for all. You’re actually stating that Christ’s sacrificial work is not sufficient and leaves the believer incomplete to the point that he himself must finish what Christ, through His sacrificial work, could not.The true believer is now in the risen Christ. What “dross” must be yet burned away from the risen Christ in whom the true believer is now eternally identified?The “fire” in that passage has to do with the future judgment of the believer’s WORKS. Not the “person.” The "gold, “silver” and “precious stones” describe the believer’s WORKS which are not combustible and therefore qualify for REWARD. Other WORKS described, figuratively, as “wood,” “hay” and “straw,” are completely combustible and do not remain. Hence, do not qualify for REWARD.

NONE of this has to do with “sins,” which were dealt with, once for all, by sacrificial blood. The ONLY way God has revealed in His Word that He ever deals with sin. Going all the way back to where blood was shed in order to properly clothes Adam and Eve. Their own efforts to clothe themselves with fig leaves wouldn’t do. Compared to the idea that one can be purified of the so-called, “effects” and “attachments” to sin by his own suffering. That too won’t do. God has revealed no such thing. Why? Because God Himself has dealt with sin (and all aspects of it) through ONE sacrifice, for all time.1 Cor 6:11 "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."There will come a time that nothing unclean will be in heaven or earth. But it’s not true that nothing unclean can enter heaven now. For now, even Satan makes an appearance before God in heaven:Job 1:6-7 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."But for us who have truly believed, it is Divinely revealed that to be absent from the body is to be home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8-9). No intermediate state is revealed. There’s simply no need for it. Since God has revealed in His word that the true believer has been “washed,” “sanctified,” and “justified” in the name of his Lord and the Spirit of his God.

Quite creative Md Where did you come across these ideas ? Your ideas … or need you cite sources ?

 

[guanophore]

If one commits blasphemy against the Holy Spirit they cannot be forgiven period. Not here or in the afterlife. That’s why its called the UNPARDONABLE sin. Its unforgivable. A true born-again Christian cannot commit this sin. This is only what unregenerate man is capable of because he is an enmity of God.

Obviously the early Church saw things differently. During the persecutions, there was much discussion as to whether those who denied Christ to save their skins had committed the unpardonable sin. Some that denied Christ later repented and there was a lack of clarity about whether or not they should be received again. Some were excommunicated for years. Eventually the Church came to recognize that there is no sin that cannot be forgiven, except final impenitence.

Christians are capable of, and certainly do, commit all the same sins that unregenerate men do. This is because the nature of the “old man” has not changed, and sometimes the battle between the new man and the old goes ill.

 

[guanophore]

Be careful now. God is not mocked. Nor did moondweller say we can keep sinning. That it doesn’t matter. God chastises the Christian who sins. And if he keeps willfully sinning and refuses to repent, he’s in trouble. There is a Judgment Day before Christ Himself. Unless we believe in the Jesus of the Bible, that he ALONE is our Mediator. He ALONE paid our sin debt in full and is the ONLY way to heaven. Unless you believe this, you are believing in another Jesus and another gospel, which the apostle Paul said isn’t ANOTHER (but a false one) because there is only ONE Gospel. We are NOT all guaranteed eternal life with God. Heaven is closed to those who do not accept God’s free gift of salvation. Who deny that Christ paid the full ransom for man’s sins, bore the punishment we deserve on His own body and that His blood sacrifice was perfect and complete, Your church works won’t get you to heaven. Mary cannot help get you there nor any dead saints. You alone, by yourself must come to the Cross, fully acknowledging that you are a sinner who cannot do a thing to save yourself. Your righteous acts are filthy rags before God.The wages of sin is death, There is no one righteous…no, not one! ALL have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory. You break one Commandment, you’ve broken them ALL.This is all in the Scriptures. There is nothing YOU can do to save yourself, to win points with God, or to please a Holy God with your church rules and rituals or acts of piety. You MUST deal with your sins now. After you die, it is too late. You must bring those sins to Jesus. He alone fully Forgives. Come to Him with your hands empty and your heart open. ONLY the shed blood of the Son can satisfy God and cleanse you of all unrighteousness. Unless you do this and admit that you are trusting in other things besides Jesus Christ for your salvation and ask Jesus to forgive you and wash you in His blood, then, no, you are not going to heaven. Jesus will cast out many, many self professing christians who trusted in their good works and their church to save them.

I just wanted to compliement you on this. I am behind on the thread, but this is one of the very best “altar calls” I have heard in a long time!

Did you know that CAF is not a venue for you to proselytize Catholics?

 

[guanophore]

(Law)…, to show man what sin is: transgression against God’s law and the seriousness of it. It was to show man that he is incapable of obeying God’s Holy and perfect law.

This is one of the most heinous doctrines to come out of the Reformation. It ranks right up there with Sola Scriptura. God does not command us to do that which He does not enable us to do. It is possible to keep the Law. It can only be done by grace, through faith. It is not the Law that saves, but grace that enables us to to keep it.

You break one Commandment, you’re guilty of breaking them all. That’s why Jesus needed to come and die by the shedding of His blood because man cannot do anything on his own. The apostle Paul admits he was doing the things he should not do, and the very thing he should be doing, he wasn’t. He called himself a wretched man because he understood the hopelessness of trying to obey the law.

Yes, but read on to the next verse! Who shall rescue from the body of death? In Him we can do all things, and that includes keeping His commandments.

if Jesus taught, as you seem to believe, that the Law and the Gospel are not opposed to one another but work in conjunction, then why would the apostles respond to those who asked: what must I do to be saved? by saying: "**believe** on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou **shall** be saved"? (Acts 16). The apostles never added anything to the Gospel by adding any type of  "works". The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of grace.

They do work in conjunction. We become aware of our lack through the Law, and through the Gospel we are enabled to keep it

As for the lawyer in Luke 10, we must be careful to keep this in context. The lawyer asked this question to test Jesus. Set a trap. The Lawyer does not show humility by saying something like, "How can I do this, since I am an imperfect and sinful man?" Instead, he seeks to justify himself. He asked about a topic he knows best: law.

But Jesus did not try to mislead the lawyer with His answer. Indeed, one finds life when one keeps all the commandments. They are the guide of how we can live a healthy happy life. The Psalms are full of testimony to this effect. Paul also testifies that the Law is good.

 However, the laws of man is different from the law of God and the world cannot understand the things of God because its spiritually discerned. ...  The standard, which is perfect love, is too high.

No, yankee, the standard is not “too high”. Jesus does not command of us that which He will not enable us to do. He commanded us to love as He loves, therefore, He will enable us to do so. He enables us by His grace to fulfill all that He has called us to do.

 

[guanophore]

Catholicism ADDS the word “initial” in its teachings on salvation and justification. But you won’t find it in the Scriptures.

No, but we do find “began” many times, indicating that there is a specific point in time when the right relationship with God was initiated, and persists into the present. The word “Trinity” is not found in the Scripture either, but the sense of it is certainly clear.