purgatory

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Well, its nice that you took a bath. Now, as I said previously, lets have a little injection of basic common sense and two basic Biblical principles:

Principle 1: We are sinners and we are not perfect, and we are such even at the moment of our deaths. Thats just a fact.

Principle 2: Nothing unclean shall enter heaven (Revelation 21:27)

Ergo, between death and heaven MUST come a final cleansing - “purging” - of any imperfections we still have in us. There is no way to escape that simple fact.

That’s according to your tradition, not the Word of God…

No, thats according to the Bible. Let me repeat for the mentally challenged:

Biblical Principle 1: We are sinners and we are not perfect, and we are such even at the moment of our deaths. Thats just a fact.

Biblical Principle 2: Nothing unclean shall enter heaven (Revelation 21:27)

So between death and heaven MUST come a final cleansing of any imperfections we still have in us.

Thats the Bible man, not tradition.

 

[moondweller]

I have learned two important things about this on this threat. Moon is identified with the Risen Christ, in whom there is no imperfection, and therefore, is instantly ready to enter heaven.

This is true.

The other is that the unclean do enter heaven (from his point of view), though it won’t be this way in the future. It seems that Moon believes there is no way for the angels (including fallen ones) to present themselves before God unless they are in heaven.

I don’t know how you ever concluded such a thing. I merely pointed out to you, by way of example, that your doctrine of “nothing unclean can enter heaven” simply is not true. Satan does enter heaven. There will come a day, however, after Christ’s Millennial rule on earth, that God will create a new heaven and earth and there will be no trace of sin, whatsoever. Even Satan will be in his eternal abode (the lake of fire).

But every true believer, upon death, according to the Scriptures, enters immediately into the presence of Christ “CLEANSED,” having been washed in His blood. I understand, however, that this is not your belief according to your tradition.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

…But every true believer, upon death, according to the Scriptures, enters immediately into the presence of Christ “CLEANSED,” having been washed in His blood…

But what you fail to address is the process by which that is made possible. Thats what Purgatory is, the process by which that is made possible.

At the moment of death you are still a sinner. But you say that according to the Scriptures we enter immediately into the presence of Christ “cleansed”. What you are failing to address is: How do we get cleansed between death and entering into the presence of Christ

 

[PRmerger]

**Originally Posted by guanophore **
Again you seem to have no clue what it means to have attachment to sin. You must be a very pure man.

I am, I’ve been washed.

And yet, curiously, you deny this very sinlessness to your Blessed Mother.

How is it that the very vessel that contained the Word made Flesh has been denied the glorious title of one who never sinned, yet the redoubtable moondweller can claim this Purity for himself?

 

[PRmerger]

Originally Posted by guanophore
I have learned two important things about this on this threat. Moon is identified with the Risen Christ, in whom there is no imperfection, and therefore, is instantly ready to enter heaven.

This is true.

And, yet, curiously, I presume you deny the Blessed Mother’s Assumption into heaven, moon?

 

[FiberZilla]

But what you fail to address is the process by which that is made possible. Thats what Purgatory is, the process by which that is made possible.

At the moment of death you are still a sinner. But you say that according to the Scriptures we enter immediately into the presence of Christ “cleansed”. What you are failing to address is: How do we get cleansed between death and entering into the presence of Christ

Christ died for the ungodly, not the righteous. Purification or cleansing of sin occurred once for all at Calvary and can only be received as a gift and is offered to all who are true believers.
If cleansing by Purgatorial fires could free us from sin then Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was unnecessary.

 

[PRmerger]

If cleansing by Purgatorial fires could free us from sin then Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was unnecessary.

Not true. It is because of Christ’s atoning death on the cross that Purgatorial fires can purge any temporal effects of sin from our souls. Because. Not despite.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Christ died for the ungodly, not the righteous. Purification or cleansing of sin occurred once for all at Calvary and can only be received as a gift and is offered to all who are true believers…

Are you perfect right now? Are you sinless right now? No, you are not. You too are also failing to address the process by which being made perfect is made possible. Thats what Purgatory is, the process by which that is made possible.

I repeat: At the moment of death you are still a sinner. But the other poster says that according to the Scriptures we enter immediately into the presence of Christ “cleansed”. What you both are failing to address is: How do we get cleansed between death and entering into the presence of Christ

…If cleansing by Purgatorial fires could free us from sin then Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was unnecessary.

Wrong. It is merely the completion of the lifelong proccess of sanctification. Growing in holiness is a proccess, it does not happen in one fell swoop. Christ’s sacrafice was neccessary for you to begin that proccess, and it is neccessary for the ending of that proccess: Purgatory

 

[guanophore]

Indeed.

I simply find it illogical how a “Bible Christian” can disparage Sacred Tradition; it seems so obvious to me that if there’s no Sacred Tradition, there’s no Sacred Scripture.

The only explanation for this mystifying logic is that the obfuscation is the result of the evil one. Doesn’t he rejoice in this illogic?

The vast majority of “bible christians” have no idea about the history of the canon.

They also don’t know that the Apostles and Jesus used the Septuagint, and that is why the Church included the Deuterocanonical books. Even if they claim Maccabees is not inspired, they cannot accept that it is an accurate representation of the afterlife beliefs of the Jews at that time, and part of the spiritual heritage into which Jesus and the Apostles were born.

 

[guanophore]

That’s true, but once accepted we don’t go outside of the theopneustos (God-breathed) Scriptures and build our own doctrines.

That is an interesting comment, Moon, especially since it, in itself, is a doctrine that goes outside the Scriptures.

In all my discussions with SS folks, I am always told that SS “assumes a canon”. At least, those who use the Bible accept the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church that it is, indeed, an authoritative collection of books.

It is interesting that this can be done, but other beliefs, held and promulgated by teh same Church, are not accepted. How do you know they “got it right” with the canon, but not Purgatory?

Everything we need to walk in "*obedience of faith*" has been *preserved* for us in those sacred writings.  There's no need for extrabiblical doctrines like purgatory.

And yet, you just threw out yet another extrabiblical doctrine!

But rather:2 Tim 3:16-17 "All Scripture is inspired (*theopneustos*) by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

this may come as a shock to you, Moon, but the duty of teaching, reproving, correcting and training was given by Jesus to people, not books. The Sacred Scriptures are “profitable” in these tasks. The duty to equip the saints for the work of the ministry belongs to those ordained by God…
moondweller;5990906:

  Invariably, extrabiblical doctrines, formed by men, deny what the *theopneustos*

Scriptures have revealed concerning sin, Christ and salvation. What Paul wrote to the churches in the area of Galatia rings true to this very day: “A little leaven leavens the whole lump.”

I agree, Sola Scriptura being the primary source of this problem, and the TULIP right behind it.

 

[moondweller]

And yet, curiously, you deny this very sinlessness to your Blessed Mother.

I deny both that she was sinless (having been born in Adam) and that she’s my “Blessed Mother.” Neither are in Scripture, neither have Divine support.

How is it that the very vessel that contained the Word made Flesh has been denied the glorious title of one who never sinned, yet the redoubtable moondweller can claim this Purity for himself?

The same way Mary was cleansed of her sins, and all attachments to them. By being washed in the blood of Christ through faith. For this reason she too, as a natural descendant of Adam, called God her Savior.

The only One ever ascribed sinlessness is the Man Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:21). And please spare me your interpretation of Lk. 2:28. I’ve addressed it many times.

 

[moondweller]

And, yet, curiously, I presume you deny the Blessed Mother’s Assumption into heaven, moon?

Can you name for me those who witnessed it? Jesus had eye witnesses to His ascending into heaven, so who are Mary’s???

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

I deny both that she was sinless (having been born in Adam) and that she’s my “Blessed Mother.” Neither are in Scripture…

Correction: Neither are in your personal intepretation of Scripture. Do not confuse your personal intepretation of Scripture with Scripture itself.

 

[moondweller]

I agree, Sola Scriptura being the primary source of this problem, and the TULIP right behind it.

You keep forgetting that I’m not a Calvinist. :doh2:

 

[akapoppie]

how do we know that this is true? how do we know that we released 1000 souls from purgatory?

There are many traditions in other cultures about prayers for sould in Purgatory. For instance, the Polish say 3 God our Fathers, 3 Hail Marys, and 3 Glory Bes to release one soul from Purgatory. There is no one method that works more than others, and it is at God’s discretion that we do pray for those people, but God is the one who will decide their fate.

 

[akapoppie]

Originally Posted by moondweller
I deny both that she was sinless (having been born in Adam) and that she’s my “Blessed Mother.” Neither are in Scripture…

During Mary’s visit to Elizabeth, she says “For generations shall call me Blessed”
Also, she was told by the Angel Gabriel “Hail Mary, full of grace” Grace is God’s absolution of our sins and his help in preventing us from sin… therefore to be full of it she was 100% free of sin."

 

[guanophore]

 I've been washed:

Yes, as have all who have been validly baptized. However, this bath of regeneration does not wash out the sin nature (except in your case, because you are completely identified with the Risen Christ, who needs no purificatio, since He has no dross). the rest of us still struggle against the flesh, because unlike yourself, we have not yet been permanently transfigured into our glorified bodies.

The Greek word used for “washed” here is from the root word “louo,” which basically means “to bathe.” God’s Word explicitly reveals to us that Christ has bathed (washed) every true believer, once for all, from their sins, not in the future with "purifying fires, but “in His own blood.” When one has been bathed with the blood of Christ, obviously there’s no further cleansing needed.

I understand that you believe this is true for yourself, Moon, and I accept it. I appreciate you explaining it to me. I think, when I encounter other Reformed persons, I will understand them better after this.

The Apostles never taught that baptism purified from sin “once for all time”. On the contrary, they counselled the faithful vigorously about the need to refrain from and avoid sin.

**That's why you will not**, can not, do not find your doctrine of purgatory with its "*purifying fires*" in the Scriptures.

Well, we read them differently, don’t we?

For example, this is an interesting instruction for someone who has already been purified:

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Jas 4:9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.
Jas 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers.

What need is there for this kind of instruction, if no purity is lacking?

To claim that the believer is yet to suffer himself for cleansing renders the blood of Christ insufficient, if not useless.

I understand you see it this way, Moon, but this is not the teaching of the Church. We are purified and cleansed BECAUSE of his sufficient blood sacrifice. This is what makes it possible.

2Co 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

For us, the Apostolic instruction means that we are in a process of cleansing every day from all defilement of body and spirit, and that our journey to holiness is not complete in this life.

Now go to 1 Cor. 6:11:"Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.“The Greek word for “washed” in this passage is from the root word “apolouo” which means “to wash off, or away, fully.” As dirt has no more attachment to the one who has bathed in water, so the true believer has no more "attachments to sin” having had his sins fully washed off by the blood of Christ.

Absolutely! This is a reference to water baptism, and this is the teaching of the Church. What we are discussing with regard to Purgatory is post-baptismal sin. If a person were to die in this state, with no sin on their soul, the Church has always taught that such a one would have unimpeded entrance to heaven, there being nothing “unclean” (dirt) upon him.

You see, guanophore, your doctrine of purgatory, which is taught nowhere in the Scriptures, denies this fundamental, Divinely revealed truth of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ.

No, Moon, you are the only one in denial here. You just cannot accept what the Church really teaches. You want to believe your distorted perceptions of Catholicism.

 

[guanophore]

There are no so-called “attachments to sin” or “effects of sin” (a nonbiblical doctrine) that need yet to be “burned off” by one’s own personal suffering in so-called “purifying fires,” when he/she has been fully washed clean of all sins by sacrificial blood. And not just “common” blood, my friend, but Christ’s own blood.

Yes, both things are true. Baptism does not remove our inclination to sin (the old man/flesh). Let’s look in the very passage you are citing for the whole context:

1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!
1Co 6:4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church?
1Co 6:5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers,
1Co 6:6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?
1Co 6:7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?
1Co 6:8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud–even your own brothers!
1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 6:12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything.
1Co 6:13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”–and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
1Co 6:14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.
1Co 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!
1Co 6:16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”
1Co 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
1Co 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

Paul is reprimanding the Corinthians for their sinful behaviors. He criticises them because they cannot settle their disputes between one another. Then he points out that the unrighteous do not inherit the kingdom. He makes a list of sins, and notes that many of them describe the lifestyle of the saved to whom he is writing. He then goes on to talk about more sins of the flesh. Why does he tell these believers to “flee” from seuxual immorality? You don’t suppose they could have any temptation to get pulled into that, do you? This is an attachment to sin. Being washed from the sin does not subtract from the individual (except you of course ) the inclination toward sin.

What God had to do to *fully* cleanse sinful men of all sins, He has revealed it to us in His written Word.  And He has revealed to us that He has DONE it, *once for all*, by sacrificial BLOOD - not fire.  The only thing that is required of men to receive this cleansing is to BELIEVE what God has said concerning Christ.

Again, Moon, we are talking about post baptismal sin here. We are in agreement on these points.

Purgatory, OTOH, with its “purifying fires,” is a doctrine formed by men out of unbelief in what God Himself has already said concerning the blood of Christ and the power of it to cleanse a sinner, once for all.

I can see how it would seem that way to you. However, it is not. It represenets, on the contrary, our confidence that He will bring what he has begun to completion.

You keep saying we don’t understand purgatory.

Could it have to do with any of the six false statements you made in just one post about the doctrine of Purgatory, perhaps?

Why is there a need to understand something that was never Divinely revealed?

There is no need for you, Moon, as you are completely identified with the Risen Christ, in whom there is no dross. You are pure,a nd will be for eternity.

I dont’ understand why you waste your energy on threads such as this!

:ehh:

 

[guanophore]

Well, its nice that you took a bath. Now, as I said previously, lets have a little injection of basic common sense and two basic Biblical principles:

Now stop, Irish! You know very well he was talking about baptism in the HS!

Principle 1: We are sinners and we are not perfect, and we are such even at the moment of our deaths. Thats just a fact.

No, Irish. It is only a “fact” for the rest of humanity. Did you not read Moon’s post? Don’t you realize that his identity is hidden with Christ, in God? Since the Risen Christ has no dross, Moon does not have any either. He is completely identified with the Godhead now, adn has nothing imperfect left in his mortal body.

Principle 2: Nothing unclean shall enter heaven (Revelation 21:27)

You must not be reading the posts. Did you not see the one where he quoted the part from Job where the angelic beings came before God? Since Satan is fallen, and he was before God, then unclean things must be allowed in heaven.

Ergo, between death and heaven MUST come a final cleansing - “purging” - of any imperfections we still have in us. There is no way to escape that simple fact.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

I certainly hope you are being sarcastic and not serious