Purgatory

[NickyCW]

Even as a non-catholic before my conversion a place of purification made sense to me. I always thought about earthly examples of people who are important, and how people always want to “look their best” in those situations. When we go to heaven, we will be going to be face to face with GOD! We all know we have yet to be made perfect, even through his redemptive grace, so it makes sense that, if even for a moment, we stop off on the way to be made perfect. Purgatory is not in competition with Jesus’ redemptive power - purgatory was created BY Him to allow us to cast off the last of our imperfection before meeting him.

I recently listened to John Martignoni’s CD about purgatory. John is the founder of the Bible Christian Society, and is incredible at providing a BIBLICAL perspective on responding to common objections to our faith. Anyone that doesn’t believe in Purgatory or believes in Once Saved Always Saved - and is brave enough to see if your believes can REALLY stand up to the test - should check them out. They are FREE at www.biblechristiansociety.com

I would also recommend any of his CDs to anyone interested in learning how to better defend your faith!

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

Well then, I am sorry that you can’t see such a clear parallel.

And I’m sorry that it doesn’t take much for you to see “parallels.”

Peace,
CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

And I’m sorry that it doesn’t take much for you to see “parallels.”

Peace,
CM

Aside from your sarcasm, no need to be sorry.

 

[Churchmouse]

bones_IV:

Churchmouse, I’ve got news for you we have people in our Church who are experts and the Catholic Church interprets the bible for us. Let me ask you this. Which came first sacred tradition or the bible? Sacred tradition came first, the holy scriptures came later. Remember, the bible had not been written down yet. Imagine, that Jesus had ascended into heaven and left the Apostles with just the holy scriptures. I gaurantee you that the Church would have fallen shortly thereafter.

Really? Who is the “expert” who finds this parallel or the “tradition” which teaches this parallel? Everything else is obfuscation.

Peace,
CM

 

[Vincent1560]

To switch directions a bit. I am still having a lot of difficulty with the concept of venial vs. mortal sins. If a venial sin can be cleansed in purgatory, why can’t a mortal sin (definition aside). For instance if a Catholic skips mass ( and fulfills all the conditions i.e knows it is a grave matter etc.) and gets hit by a bus why cant purgatiory cleanse that sin so long as he loves God and beleives in him. Unless you think that it is impossible to love God/believe in him and commit a mortal sin. For example I love my mother very much and always have. But when I was a teenager I would willfully disobey her in complete knowledge that it was against her will, and she would punish me but my status as her son was never at risk. This I guess is why I believe OSAS, I don’t think that someone who has sincerely come to believe in and trust God and loved him per the greatest commandment can cease to do so. I do believe such a person can commit so called mortal sins, but per Christ’s promises I believe such a person is still a child of God and promised heaven (I will conceed that a purgatorial process is not ruled out, but a hellieh one I believe is.)

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

Aside from your sarcasm, no need to be sorry.

No sarcasm here as evidenced by the failure to bolster your “parallel.”

Peace,
CM

 

[bones_IV]

Vincent1560:

To switch directions a bit. I am still having a lot of difficulty with the concept of venial vs. mortal sins. If a venial sin can be cleansed in purgatory, why can’t a mortal sin (definition aside). For instance if a Catholic skips mass ( and fulfills all the conditions i.e knows it is a grave matter etc.) and gets hit by a bus why cant purgatiory cleanse that sin so long as he loves God and beleives in him. Unless you think that it is impossible to love God/believe in him and commit a mortal sin. For example I love my mother very much and always have. But when I was a teenager I would willfully disobey her in complete knowledge that it was against her will, and she would punish me but my status as her son was never at risk. This I guess is why I believe OSAS, I don’t think that someone who has sincerely come to believe in and trust God and loved him per the greatest commandment can cease to do so. I do believe such a person can commit so called mortal sins, but per Christ’s promises I believe such a person is still a child of God and promised heaven (I will conceed that a purgatorial process is not ruled out, but a hellieh one I believe is.)

The reason why mortal sins cannot be cleansed in Purgatory is that a body that is dead cannot merit grace.

 

[Churchmouse]

NickyCW:

Even as a non-catholic before my conversion a place of purification made sense to me. I always thought about earthly examples of people who are important, and how people always want to “look their best” in those situations. When we go to heaven, we will be going to be face to face with GOD! We all know we have yet to be made perfect, even through his redemptive grace, so it makes sense that, if even for a moment, we stop off on the way to be made perfect. Purgatory is not in competition with Jesus’ redemptive power - purgatory was created BY Him to allow us to cast off the last of our imperfection before meeting him.

I recently listened to John Martignoni’s CD about purgatory. John is the founder of the Bible Christian Society, and is incredible at providing a BIBLICAL perspective on responding to common objections to our faith. Anyone that doesn’t believe in Purgatory or believes in Once Saved Always Saved - and is brave enough to see if your believes can REALLY stand up to the test - should check them out. They are FREE at www.biblechristiansociety.com

I would also recommend any of his CDs to anyone interested in learning how to better defend your faith!

Greetings!

Sure, we can rationalize anything, however, that doesn’t make it true. I will check your source on, at least, the “purgatory” piece to see if he cites this “parallel” and how he defends it.

Peace,
CM

 

[bones_IV]

Churchmouse:

Really? Who is the “expert” who finds this parallel or the “tradition” which teaches this parallel? Everything else is obfuscation.

Peace,
CM

Huh? I’m here to tell that sacred tradition is equal to the holy scriptures. Paul even said “pass on what we’ve passed on to you, be it by word of mouth or a letter of ours.”

 

[Churchmouse]

bones_IV:

Huh? I’m here to tell that sacred tradition is equal to the holy scriptures. Paul even said “pass on what we’ve passed on to you, be it by word of mouth or a letter of ours.”

You claimed “experts” and “traditions.” I asked you to point me to the “expert” or “tradition” which teaches that the purification ritual of the Temple priests is “parallel” to afterlife purification. I’m sticking to the subject as posted at the beginning of the thread. Ball’s in your court .

Peace,
CM

 

[bones_IV]

Churchmouse:

You claimed “experts” and “traditions.” I asked you to point me to the “expert” or “tradition” which teaches that the purification ritual of the Temple priests is “parallel” to afterlife purification. I’m sticking to the subject as posted at the beginning of the thread. Ball’s in your court .

Peace,
CM

Look back at my post on Hebrews. Let’s use a better example how about the Noah’s ark. Peter even refers to the ark in his letter. The ark served to present purification and after the flood it is a symbollization of eternal life.

 

[Churchmouse]

bones_IV:

Look back at my post on Hebrews. Let’s use a better example how about the Noah’s ark. Peter even refers to the ark in his letter. The ark served to present purification and after the flood it is a symbollization of eternal life.

Again, look at every post I made on this thread. I am solely interested in the parallel that was made between the Temple priests and their purification rites and afterlife purification. I claimed that it was just another forced interpretation considering that the same can be said without the need for a purgatory. IOW, their purification rites can be just as much a parallel for the cleansing of sin through Christ which allows us to enter Heaven. It doesn’t necessarily promote this doctrine in any way, form, or manner.

Peace,
CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

Again, look at every post I made on this thread. I am solely interested in the parallel that was made between the Temple priests and their purification rites and afterlife purification. I claimed that it was just another forced interpretation considering that the same can be said without the need for a purgatory. IOW, their purification rites can be just as much a parallel for the cleansing of sin through Christ which allows us to enter Heaven. It doesn’t necessarily promote this doctrine in any way, form, or manner.

Peace,
CM

I personally think it parallels nicely with “nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27)…but that’s just me I guess.

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if “covered,” remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us “to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit.” Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

 

[Vincent1560]

bones_IV:

The reason why mortal sins cannot be cleansed in Purgatory is that a body that is dead cannot merit grace.

I am sorry, but as a non-Catholic I am going to need you to expand on this a bit both in terms of what you mean and what reasoning you used to get there.

 

[sandusky]

E.E.N.S.:

You must not have read them, because they were explanations. Next time read first - then reply. Thanks.

Just as I thought. You copy and paste, but cannot explain even one of them.

 

[E.E.N.S]

sandusky:

Just as I thought. You copy and paste, but cannot explain even one of them.

Right about the copy and paste; wrong about not being able to explain them.

I could talk about any one of those passages longer than I have time to do at work. (Copy and paste saves me a lot of time.)

I do not appreciate false accusations Sandusky.

 

[sandusky]

bones_IV:

You lost the volley in the opeining sentence. Faith is not blind its reasonable.

Re-read your post bones; you said that Paul was saying that the Gospel is not contrary to reason; you said nothing about faith.

And, I disagree with you. Reasonable faith is not blind, but blind faith is blind.

bones_IV:

Let me ask you this: can you fully comprehend God? The answer is no. I did not say anything about not knowing what God’s plan is

You said, and I quote:

bones_IV:

The “Secret and hidden”: refers to God’s plan of salvation. God’s plan is not meant to be fully understood while we are in our mortal stage

I said, that God’s plan of salvation is revealed, and those hear his voice know it (Jn10)

bones_IV:

Consider this verse for a minute in John it says “whoever eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal life.” This is a hard saying. Can you fully understand the Trinity? No, its a mystery. Jesus did not ask us to understand, sandusky, but to have faith.

Romans 12:1-2
*1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. *

Ephesians 4:23
*23 and that you **be renewed in the spirit of your mind, ***

No call to understanding, eh, Bones? You are not reading your Bible.

bones_IV:

So say that God has revealed his plan of salvation is not the same thing as saying as saying your salvation is assured. Saying that our salvation is assured is like saying one could rape one hundred women in a day and still go to heaven.

Technically, yes. But on the whole what you say is rubbish, and you merely exhibit your non-understanding of the doctrine.

bones_IV:

How can you possibly say that your salvation is garuanteed?

I’ll sling some verses at you:

1 Corinthians 1:8-9
*8 who **will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. ** 9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. *

**Ephesians 4:30 **
*30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, **by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. ** *

Do a study on the word “seal” in the N.T., and the O.T. if you want to.

Philippians 1:4-6
*4 always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all,
5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now.
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. *

**2 Timothy 4:18 **
18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

**2 Corinthians 1:20-22 **
20 *For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.
21 **Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, **
22 **who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. ***

bones_IV:

You say it is, but you contradict yourself when you work hard at your job to get a pay check. Not?

Yours is a works-righteousness theology. Mine is not.

Bones, there are only two religions in this whole, wide world.

1. The Religion of Divine Accomplishment: God as done it All
2. The Religion of Human Achievement: God has done some, I must work for the rest

That is why purgatory is taught to you. It is a safety net, it is an assurance.

My safety net is Christ, and the promises He has made.

 

[bones_IV]

Vincent1560:

I am sorry, but as a non-Catholic I am going to need you to expand on this a bit both in terms of what you mean and what reasoning you used to get there.

Mortal sins destroy your relationship with God. A mortal sin must be done voluntarily. That is to say you did it freely. Your soul is like a battery. When you sin you hurt your relationship with God. A dead soul is like a battery that has no charge in it. Venial sins are lesser sins but one should look at it as an excuse to sin. Remember, after death there is no repentance! The opportunity to repent hence is lost. So if one does die in a state of mortal sin, the soul will have no place to go but to hell.

 

[On_my_way]

sandusky:

Just as I thought. You copy and paste, but cannot explain even one of them.

And what makes you think that you are interpreting the Bible correctly? Can you read Latin, Greek and/or any other language that the Bible has been written in? If not then how do you know what you are reading is right?

 

[bones_IV]

sandusky:

Re-read your post bones; you said that Paul was saying that the Gospel is not contrary to reason; you said nothing about faith.

And, I disagree with you. Reasonable faith is not blind, but blind faith is blind.

You said, and I quote:

I said, that God’s plan of salvation is revealed, and those hear his voice know it (Jn10)

Romans 12:1-2
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Ephesians 4:23
*23 and that you **be renewed in the spirit of your mind, ***

No call to understanding, eh, Bones? You are not reading your Bible.

Technically, yes. But on the whole what you say is rubbish, and you merely exhibit your non-understanding of the doctrine.

I’ll sling some verses at you:

1 Corinthians 1:8-9
*8 who **will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. *** 9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

**Ephesians 4:30 **
*30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, **by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. ***

Do a study on the word “seal” in the N.T., and the O.T. if you want to.

Philippians 1:4-6
4 always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all,
5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now.
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

**2 Timothy 4:18 **
18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

**2 Corinthians 1:20-22 **
20 For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.
21 **Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, **
22 **who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. **

Yours is a works-righteousness theology. Mine is not.

Bones, there are only two religions in this whole, wide world.

1. The Religion of Divine Accomplishment: God as done it All
2. The Religion of Human Achievement: God has done some, I must work for the rest

That is why purgatory is taught to you. It is a safety net, it is an assurance.

My safety net is Christ, and the promises He has made.

Just because I said that you cannot fully understand God, does not mean that we aren’t called to understand the faith. To say that we can fully understand God is like saying that we can read the mind of God. Simply not true. You said I said nothing about faith? Wow. You ought to read John Paul II’s fides et ratio.
link

You say “reasonable faith is blind, blind faith is blind.” Didn’t say that I said what St. Thomas Aquinas said “Faith is reasonable.” A doctor of the church. If say that Faith is not reasonable then you have a problem with Jesus says “how can the blind lead the blind.” So you believe that God has predestined some people to go to hell? No way! God predestines everyone to go to heaven. That fact of the matter is, is that some of them by choice reject it. Mother Angelica said, “Some people end up in hell, because they want to be there, not because God predestined them to be there.”

Well of course God’s plan of salvation is revealed, the Catholic Church says that there is no Revelation outside of what God has revealed to us in sacred scripture and the Church’s teaching and Magisterium and doctrine.