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Churchmouse
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sara888 said:
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sara888
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Churchmouse
**As a re-formed Baptist you do believe in the OSAS doctrine,? Well you will not profess or believe anything the Catholic Church teaches. Forget the discussion on Purgatory, as a Baptist you believe in guranteed salvation, or assured salvation
The OSAS doctrine not only lacks logic it is unbiblical .
Faith and works debates become a circular discussion. You agree one who has faith participates in good deeds, however if they omit these good works, laws, they are still saved, because of Faith Alone.
False teacher/prophet looks just like a sheep. But his message is not from God. A false teacher preaches a broad way to heaven, and Jesus preaches a narrow way.
Sadly Paul warned of a day when men would embrace such false teaching:
II Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them**.
**As a re-formed Baptist you do believe in the OSAS doctrine,? Well you will not profess or believe anything the Catholic Church teaches. Forget the discussion on Purgatory, as a Baptist you believe in guranteed salvation, or assured salvation
The OSAS doctrine not only lacks logic it is unbiblical .
Faith and works debates become a circular discussion. You agree one who has faith participates in good deeds, however if they omit these good works, laws, they are still saved, because of Faith Alone.
False teacher/prophet looks just like a sheep. But his message is not from God. A false teacher preaches a broad way to heaven, and Jesus preaches a narrow way.
Sadly Paul warned of a day when men would embrace such false teaching:
II Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them**.
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sara888
Guest
****Churchmouse, , Blessed Virgin Mary during and approved apparation said to a Saint.
quote" Most are going to Purgatory, few to Heaven and some to Hell."
So I do not believe most are going to Hell, I dont believe all the Jews are going to Hell, etc,. etc.
Part of the creed
The Apostles CreedI I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended to the dead**.
Do you believe Jesus died and went to the dead or Hell.? Where are the dead or where did he go??
Sara**
quote" Most are going to Purgatory, few to Heaven and some to Hell."
So I do not believe most are going to Hell, I dont believe all the Jews are going to Hell, etc,. etc.
Part of the creed
The Apostles CreedI I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended to the dead**.
Do you believe Jesus died and went to the dead or Hell.? Where are the dead or where did he go??
Sara**
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Churchmouse
Guest
sara888 said:
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On_my_way
Guest
So who taught you that purgatory does not exsist? Did you figure it out yourself? No you did not!!! You believe as a re-formed baptist. That means you believe in what the baptist way is. And what do you mean earliest church writings? What you read is from early church writings. Is OSAS in the bible or was it taught to you by someone? Is Faith Alone and Sola Scriptura in the Bible also? It is not but yet you believe in them? Why? Because it is what someone told you. You did not figure this out on your own. Did someone teach you how to read, do math and write? Someone must have taught you right? Your are so arrogant it is pathetic. Purgatory is in Scripture yet you don’t believe in it. If you don’t believe in it then why argue against it?
You are only arguing to convince yourself that it doesn’t exsist.
Catholics believe and you as a Baptist don’t. Then why don’t you just leave it alone like I told someone else.
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Churchmouse
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On my way:
Peace,
CM
This is silly. First and foremost, I am an ex-Catholic. I was raised Catholic from the crib until I was 26. I was a purgatory believer during the majority of my Catholic days, although I’ve known a priest and a monsignor who didn’t (unbeknownst to their peers). I don’t believe in purgatory now, not because I am a Reformed Baptist, but because I don’t see it in Scripture and in the earliest history of the Church. Fact is, I stopped believing in purgatory during my Catholic days and not afterwards.
Yes, OSAS is Scriptural as is Faith Alone. Sola Scriptura is a logical extension of Scripture, but let’s not obfuscate the thread. It seems that everytime one finds an issue hard to deal with, they try to switch the subject. We are talking about purgatory and whether or not it was taught by the Apostolic church. When I have more time I will get involved with threads regarding other Protestant distinctives, but for now we’re talking purgatory. Stick to the subject.
This has nothing to do with the subject. I denied purgatory without being told to or being “taught” as you assume. All one has to do is read Scripture without inflicting a purgatorial bias and look within the earliest history of the Church. Roman Catholic medievel historian Jacques Le Goff wrote a book on the history of purgatory and argues that the seeds of purgatory were sown in the Christian church with Clement of Alexandria and Origen. This is well after the Apostles died and well into the first two centuries of the Church. Furthermore, the Eastern Church, which claims the same pedigree as Rome denies a purgatory as well. So, the bottom line is, I didn’t have to be taught, I just did my research.
Why would you think so? Do you know me? How would you know if I’m “arrogant”? Are those who disagree with your distinctives labeled “arrogant”?
No, purgatory isn’t in Scripture. Catholics can only claim that it is implied, but there is nothing concrete to base purgatory on. Fact is, as I’ve stated repeatedly, considering that purgatory is the realm or state which *most * Christians will go to, it would be the height of ignorance for the Apostles to merely “imply” its existence without giving a clear teaching on it. No, the lack of a clear teaching shows that this was never taught.
Again, I stopped believing in purgatory while still a Catholic. You don’t know me so stop making these silly assumptions. Considering it is within the scope of this forum to have discussions such as this one, I will continue to take the negative on this subject. If you are having a hard time with it then it is your prerogative to not participate on this subject, but it’s just as much my prerogative to continue.
Peace,
CM
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On_my_way
Guest
Churchmouse,
If you know everything then tell me the meaning of a couple of passeges. It was already posted by some but I think we would like a real answer from a pro like yourself. so here goes.
Mt 12:32, 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 3:18-20, 1 Pet 4:6, 2 Mac 12:44-46 I have a lot more but this will do for now.
If you know everything then tell me the meaning of a couple of passeges. It was already posted by some but I think we would like a real answer from a pro like yourself. so here goes.
Mt 12:32, 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 3:18-20, 1 Pet 4:6, 2 Mac 12:44-46 I have a lot more but this will do for now.
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Churchmouse
Guest
On my way:
Secondly, my intent on this thread was to refute the parallel made between purgatory and the Jewish Temple. I believe I did that. I didn’t want to get into other issues which have been refuted over and over again. There is too much “verse-slinging” in these threads. The Catholics here tend to post verses, such as the ones you post above, and expect the non-Catholics to answer to them. The Catholic usage of these verses lack, so, if you want me to exegete the verses then, out of courtesy, you should exegete them first. Tell me how and why you believe they allude to a purgatory and I will respond, but to expect me to do the work without, first, explaining your position on these verses, isn’t very cool either. So, I will await your exegesis of these verses before I respond.
Peace,
CM
First and foremost, I don’t know everything and I’m not a “pro”, so will you stop instigating? If not, I will report you to the moderators. You have called me “arrogant” in your last post, when all I did was bring up valid points. If you cannot interact with them then you don’t have to participate in this thread, but to mock someone because you cannot interact in an intellectual and kindly manner isn’t very cool.
Secondly, my intent on this thread was to refute the parallel made between purgatory and the Jewish Temple. I believe I did that. I didn’t want to get into other issues which have been refuted over and over again. There is too much “verse-slinging” in these threads. The Catholics here tend to post verses, such as the ones you post above, and expect the non-Catholics to answer to them. The Catholic usage of these verses lack, so, if you want me to exegete the verses then, out of courtesy, you should exegete them first. Tell me how and why you believe they allude to a purgatory and I will respond, but to expect me to do the work without, first, explaining your position on these verses, isn’t very cool either. So, I will await your exegesis of these verses before I respond.
Peace,
CM
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sara888
Guest
****Churchmouse,
For according to Peter, God desires that we become “participants in the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). That is why Jesus tells us we “must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48), or, in other words, that we should “be like God.” Indeed, everything Satan tricked our First Parents into trying to steal was just a cheap imitation of what God actually wills us to have. Wisdom, knowledge, power, love, true riches, assurance about the future and even communion with the whole Body of Christ both living and dead are all our proper heritage in Christ (Ephesians 1:18-19; 3:14-21).
But to inherit these things is not merely to be forgiven, it is to be Christlike. Merely desiring forgiveness without desiring inner transformation is like “cleansing the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity” (Matthew 23:25). To be Christlike, we must be changed as well as forgiven. We must be purified and “without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that [we] might be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5****:27).
Trinity in not in the bilble yet we dont question that.
Sara
For according to Peter, God desires that we become “participants in the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). That is why Jesus tells us we “must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48), or, in other words, that we should “be like God.” Indeed, everything Satan tricked our First Parents into trying to steal was just a cheap imitation of what God actually wills us to have. Wisdom, knowledge, power, love, true riches, assurance about the future and even communion with the whole Body of Christ both living and dead are all our proper heritage in Christ (Ephesians 1:18-19; 3:14-21).
But to inherit these things is not merely to be forgiven, it is to be Christlike. Merely desiring forgiveness without desiring inner transformation is like “cleansing the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity” (Matthew 23:25). To be Christlike, we must be changed as well as forgiven. We must be purified and “without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that [we] might be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5****:27).
Trinity in not in the bilble yet we dont question that.
Sara
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sara888
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**Churchmouse
If OSAS were true why all the If’s and consequences in the bible for believers.?
I have thousands of verse’s in scripture that refute such teachings**.
Sara
If OSAS were true why all the If’s and consequences in the bible for believers.?
I have thousands of verse’s in scripture that refute such teachings**.
Sara
C
Churchmouse
Guest
sara888 said:
Sara,
I mean no offense, you keep reiterating why purgatory “must” exist, but you don’t provide anything to support that it “does” exist. Again, if perfection is viewed the way Catholics do then Job 1:6-12 makes absolutely no sense. A purgatory doesn’t need to exist for Christ to make us “perfect and blameless.”
The Trinity is a logical extension of Scripture. There are verses which show a triune nature and shows it clearly, Matthew 3:16-17 being but one, but there is NOTHING which comes close for purgatory and the doctrine must be read into the verse rather then allow the verse to speak for itself.
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Churchmouse
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sara888 said:
This thread isn’t about OSAS and I don’t want to get into a discussion on it until I have more time. I believe I mentioned this earlier. I would like to stick to purgatory and work from there. One domino at a time
Peace,
CM
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Shiann
Guest
Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined: “Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful” (Denzinger, “Enchiridon”, 983). Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm#III
Please read the entire citation on purgatory in the Catholic Encyclopedia. It would also be beneficial to read the referenced material if possible. This would offer you a greater understanding of the Catholic position and history of purgatory.
sara888:
It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory. As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ’s visible ascendancy into Heaven. Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of God and the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission. Meanwhile they were “in prison,” as St. Peter says; but, as Christ’s own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward. And this, substantially, is all that Catholic tradition teaches regarding the limbus patrum.
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
Hope this helps!
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm#III
Please read the entire citation on purgatory in the Catholic Encyclopedia. It would also be beneficial to read the referenced material if possible. This would offer you a greater understanding of the Catholic position and history of purgatory.
Jesus did not descend into purgatory. Limbus Patrum (Limbo of the Fathers, Abraham’s Bosom, etc.) is seperate from purgatory.
It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory. As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ’s visible ascendancy into Heaven. Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of God and the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission. Meanwhile they were “in prison,” as St. Peter says; but, as Christ’s own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward. And this, substantially, is all that Catholic tradition teaches regarding the limbus patrum.
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
Hope this helps!
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
With all due respect, CM, I find purgatory to be just as logical of an extension of Scripture as the Trinity.
I think the Mormons (among others) would say that you are doing the same thing with the Trinity that we are doing with purgatory.
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On_my_way
Guest
First I would like to apologize about the arrogant statement. Maybe I should have said that your posts sound arrogant instead of calling you arrogant. You call all your post valid but yet you call other post false. How do you know that yours is valid (truth) and the others are invalid (false)? I cannot ack in an intellectual manner? For me to ack in an intellectual manner would mean that the person I am dealing with has some intellect.
Look you are the one trying to prove that the Church Doctrine on Purgatory is wrong, not me. I asked you to tell me what you think those passeges mean to you. I know what the Church says about them. That’s the difference with Protestants and Catholics. Catholics have an authority to guide us and Protestants want to guide themselves (personnal interpretation).
We can go on and on. Because, someone told you that it does not exsist doesn’t mean they are correct. It all comes down to the belief and trust that Catholics have for the Church.
You also said that Sola Scriptura is a logical extension of Scripture, but we both agree that it is not in Scripture. If that is what you believe, would it be fair to say that Purgatory is a logical extension also?
Last, 1 Cor 3:15, “but if someones work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” The person will only be saved through fire. It is not referring to the fires of hell because no one in hell can be saved. It is not reffering to heaven because in heaven no one will suffer. What it is reffering to is the inbetween state where the soul temporarily will suffer loss, only so that it will gain heaven. Is it fair to say that the inbetween state that the church is refering to is or could be purgatory. Is this answer intellectual enough for you.
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Churchmouse
Guest
Shiann,
I am familiar with the Catholic teaching on purgatory and its nuances, although I am in disagreement as to how ancient this belief is purported to be. However, I do thank you for posting the Catholic position on the distinction between the alleged “purgatory” and Abraham’s bosom (limbus patrum). Hopefully, no one will attempt to equate the two as one. I do disagree that there was ever a purgatorial state before or after the New Covenant considering there is no evidence in which to support this; thus, the assumption that some of the OT saints went through a purgatory is just that, an assumption.
Peace,
CM
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Churchmouse
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
Peace,
CM
No, there is no comparison to the evidence we have regarding the Trinity. Whether that be the plurality of Genesis 1:26, the Shema of Israel (Deuteronomy 6:4) or the NT evidence. Purgatory doesn’t come close to having this type of clarity.
Peace,
CM
C
Churchmouse
Guest
On my way:
Peace,
CM
I accept the apology, but there really is no way of telling if a post sounds arrogant.
I am merely questioning that which Catholics claim support or prove purgatory. If the evidence falsifies another’s claim, that I can’t help. The truth is the truth.
Again, I am merely asking that Catholics back up their claims. I contend that purgatory isn’t a belief of the earliest church, neither is it a Scriptural belief. No one has shown differently.
Amazing! You apologize above and revert to insults in this paragraph. Again, if there is no evidence that the earliest church believed in purgatory, nothing in Scripture which supports the doctrine, and a denial of this belief by the Orthodox, who claim the same pedigree as Rome, what is there to go on??? If you want to deal with this intellectually, answer the questions.
Again, I am not trying to disprove anything. It isn’t my fault that purgatory seems like a later belief and not one held by the earliest Church. The evidence speaks against it and not for it. In my estimation, it disproves itself.
Well, I would contend that Catholics don’t have this type of authority, but that’s another issue. Also, I don’t think you know enough about Protestants to judge. Let’s stick to the issue at hand.
Have you been reading my other posts? No one told me that purgatory doesn’t exist. I came to that conclusion as a Catholic and that came through research.
Sola Scriptura can be deduced through Scripture, purgatory cannot. Fact is, in all the verses used to support purgatory, one important thing is missing…PURGATORY!
Let me ask you this question: According to the verse WHAT is being “burned up”? When you answer that, ask yourself this one: HOW does the person suffer loss? Then ask yourself this one: What does the word “fire” pertain to? The “person” or the “works”?
Peace,
CM
O
On_my_way
Guest
I gave you…you know what just forget it. You don’t believe in purgatory and I do, plain and simple.
M
Mickey
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