Purgatory

[blanchardman]

Purgatory.
It is not biblical.
If you wish to dispute that statement please give a list of scriptures in the order you wish them read.
A spirited debate can follow after I have reviewed your evedence.

That is the post that started this thread.
Here the link.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=14478672#post14478672

I thank steve b for posting the list.

 

[blanchardman]

Reply to posts #35&#38
Thank you for proving my point.

 

[pablope]

Yes I have a catechism. Thank you for the offer.

I only reject doctrines for any reason other than it being non biblical.

Well…what is your basis for determining what is Biblical and what is not?

Who decides? Is it you who decides?

 

[po18guy]

This verse clearly speaks of entrance into New Jerusalem through which we enter the new heaven and new earth.

“Clearly”? It meant different things to Luther, to Calvin and to Zwingli. The scriptures told each of them something completely different. Clear? To whom? They split almost immediately because of this. Who is to judge which was correct and which was incorrect? We can agree with one over the others, but are we correct?

How is truth served in all of this? Do we all become versions of Pontius Pilate, asking “What is truth?” Either we make ourselves the sole authoritative interpreter of the written word, or we defer to the Church against which the gates of hell will never prevail. Since I know nothing, I defer to Christ via His Church.

Inasmuch as purgatory does not determine whether or not we are saved, one then wonders why Protestant are so incredibly upset - even angry - over the doctrine. I would say that the threat to Protestants is that so many of them hold to the novel doctrine of sin having no consequences - Christ having paid the full price so that we can live as we please.

As comforting as this recently formulated doctrine may be to some, it is “clearly” not found in scripture. 2 Corinthians 2 & 5 utterly destroy it.

 

[blanchardman]

Well…what is your basis for determining what is Biblical and what is not?

Who decides? Is it you who decides?

If you can show that it is of (in or supported by ) the bible then it is biblical. If you can’t then it is not.

 

[pablope]

If you can show that it is of (in or supported by ) the bible then it is biblical. If you can’t then it is not.

But…you have not shown your standard what is Biblical and not?

What is your standard by which you will determine what is Biblical and what is not?

Who decides, the Bible or you?

We have shown you that the concept of purgatory or final cleansing is indeed in the Bible…and you have offered counter interpretations…so are your interpretations correct?

What or where is the basis for your standard in determining whether something, in this case, purgatory, is Biblical or not?

 

[blanchardman]

“Clearly”? It meant different things to Luther, to Calvin and to Zwingli. The scriptures told each of them something completely different. Clear? To whom? They split almost immediately because of this. Who is to judge which was correct and which was incorrect? We can agree with one over the others, but are we correct?

How is truth served in all of this? Do we all become versions of Pontius Pilate, asking “What is truth?” Either we make ourselves the sole authoritative interpreter of the written word, or we defer to the Church against which the gates of hell will never prevail. Since I know nothing, I defer to Christ via His Church.

Inasmuch as purgatory does not determine whether or not we are saved, one then wonders why Protestant are so incredibly upset - even angry - over the doctrine. I would say that the threat to Protestants is that so many of them hold to the novel doctrine of sin having no consequences - Christ having paid the full price so that we can live as we please.

As comforting as this recently formulated doctrine may be to some, it is “clearly” not found in scripture. 2 Corinthians 2 & 5 utterly destroy it.

Revelation21:9-21 describes a city. Do you believe it is an actual city?

 

[po18guy]

Revelation21:9-21 describes a city. Do you believe it is an actual city?

Resurrected bodies have to go somewhere. We know that there will be a new heaven and a new earth, right?

The Heavenly Jerusalem. 9 f. Its origin. One of the seven angels: probably he of 19, 9. The bride, the spouse: the union of these terms expresses the virginal and perpetual purity of the mystic Spouse. She is the antithesis of the harlot, Babylon. A mountain: the elevation of spirit necessary for view the Church. Coming down, etc.: the Church come from God and draws its glory from Him.

11-21. The description of the city. The glory of God: it possesses the presence of God and shows forth His brightness. The description, which follows to 23, relies on Ezech. 48, 30-35. There are gates in the wall opening to the four quarters of the earth so that people from every direction may enter it. The angels guarding the gates are, perhaps, an allusion to Isa. 62, 6. If by the names written on the gates St. John intends the twelve tribes of the historical Israel, then by the twelve Apostles of 14 he points out the union of the Old and New Covenants. The names of the Apostles are written on the foundation stones. Perhaps the twelve gates rest on these stones. Thus even though the Church of the Old and New Covenants be represented, the work of the Apostles is especially prominent: they are the foundation on which the spiritual Jerusalem rests. The catholicity and apostolicity of the Church are indicated in these verses.

The measurement of the city. A golden reed: in keeping with the dignity of the angel and the splendor of the city. Cf. Ezech. 40-42. Twelve thousand stadia: about nine hundred miles. It is uncertain whether this refers to one side or to the sum of its sides. In any case the city is of tremendous size, indicating the figures are to be taken as symbolical. A hundred and forty-four cubits: about two hundred and thirty feet. Hence the wall is out of proportion to the dimensions of the city; but the wall is not important in such a city of peace. Angel’s measure: implying its accuracy.

The material of the wall. Each stone, perhaps, had for St. John a symbolical meaning, but we have lost the key to these symbols. Perhaps they refer to the diversity of gifts and graces received by the elect who dwell in the city. The general intention of the description is to convey an impression of the great beauty of the Spouse, who is without “spot or wrinkle or blemish” (Eph. 5, 27).

1: New: there are two words that are translated “new” in our English versions. One refers to time: the other to quality. The quality of the earth will be changed but not the substance; there will be some resemblance between the old and the new. Cf. Rom. 8, 19.

 

[po18guy]

Reply to posts #35&
Thank you for proving my point.

Allow me to understand: You care less if something is true or not; if it exists or not - and more if, in your opinion, it is “biblical”? Trying to understand the self-imposed prison cell you seem to be in. Our Lord did not confine us to the limited written revelation - Martin Luther and his followers did. 500 years of arguing and division have resulted - the fruits by which we shall know the reformation.

May an angel open that cell door for you to the totality of God’s revelation. When it opens, take a tentative step in faith outside and breathe the fresh air!

 

[blanchardman]

Allow me to understand: You care less if something is true or not; if it exists or not - and more if, in your opinion, it is “biblical”? Trying to understand the self-imposed prison cell you seem to be in. Our Lord did not confine us to the limited written revelation - Martin Luther and his followers did. 500 years of arguing and division have resulted - the fruits by which we shall know the reformation.

May an angel open that cell door for you to the totality of God’s revelation. When it opens, take a tentative step in faith outside and breathe the fresh air!

I came to this web site searching for the answer to the question: Why do Catholics believe in purgatory?
The answer always comes back to "because the church says it is true.
As to why I am “bible only” see 2Timothy3:16

 

[pablope]

I came to this web site searching for the answer to the question: Why do Catholics believe in purgatory?
The answer always comes back to "because the church says it is true.
As to why I am “bible only” see 2Timothy3:16

But you missed totally the prior verse, starting at Verse 14, here is the whole passage in context:

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So let me ask you Blanchardman…re-reading 2tim3:16 starting at verse 14…does it still say scriptures alone?

Or is there something else aside from Scriptures alone?

 

[steve_b]

I came to this web site searching for the answer to the question: Why do Catholics believe in purgatory?

I hope you got the answer to your question
b:

The answer always comes back to "because the church says it is true.

Do you know why we say that?

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

And what Church is

• “The Church”
• “of the living God”
• “the pillar and foundation of truth”
  
  The only Church Jesus established. All references in this link are properly referenced, all internal links are operational;
  #34

b:

As to why I am “bible only” see 2Timothy3:16

Maybe you’ve run into this response already.

1. • Paul in 2 Tim 3:16 .doesn’t say scripture is alone. The NT hasn’t even been written yet, nor would it be compiled till 386 a.d. at the council of Rome.
   • Actually, no place in the bible does the bible say it is alone.
   • Paul contradicts bible alone in 2 Thes 2:15 when he says “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us,*** either by word of mouth or by letter.***” IOW, both oral and written (scripture) traditions are authoritative.Not oral alone, not written alone but both.
   • technically Protestants don’t have a complete bible. They have 66 books in their bibles. That’s 7 books short.
   I hope this makes a few things clearer

 

[po18guy]

I came to this web site searching for the answer to the question: Why do Catholics believe in purgatory?
The answer always comes back to "because the church says it is true.
As to why I am “bible only” see 2Timothy3:16

1. Christ (NOT a known liar) established a Church. OK so far?
2. He promised (still NOT a liar) that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Are we still OK?
3. He also promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Apostles and the Church they formed into “all truth.” Still with us?
4. He teaches us that he who hears (NOT reads) the Apostles hears Him.

The Church, Christ’s mystical Body - not our egos, or our opinion of scripture, or what is the current fashion - teaches purgatory. It is 100% biblical and you have been shown the scriptures and the reasons. Time and again.

You reject them all flatly. I do not blame you - I blame those who taught you this.

We have heard 2 Timothy 3:16 hundreds of times. So what? We know that scripture is inspired solely because the Catholic Church has declared this to the world. This declaration is also the only reason that you know that scripture is inspired.

You think that means bible alone? Really? Does what your Lord says make any difference? Does what Paul teaches make any difference? Does what the bible itself teaches make any difference?

All point to the Church. Is Christianity really a do-it-yourself project?

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by Vico View Post
Revelation 21:27 but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any[one] who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

This verse clearly speaks of entrance into New Jerusalem through which we enter the new heaven and new earth.

JL: Yes Rv21:27 clearly speaks of entrance into New Jerusalem and nothing unclean will enter it. New Jerusalem where the spirits of just men made perfect are now in the presents of God, awaiting the resurrection of their glorified bodies and the glorified regeneration of the present corrupted heaven=universe and earth.

[Hb12:22 But **ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]

[Rv21:1 And **I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.]

 

[po18guy]

An excellent article by Jimmy Akin which explains the doctrine.

jimmyakin.com/how-to-explain-purgatory-to-protestants

 

[blanchardman]

Resurrected bodies have to go somewhere. We know that there will be a new heaven and a new earth, right?

So New Jerusalem is a physical structure on a physical earth inhabited by people with physical bodies.

 

[blanchardman]

Originally Posted by Vico View Post
Revelation 21:27 but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any[one] who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

JL: Yes Rv21:27 clearly speaks of entrance into New Jerusalem and nothing unclean will enter it. New Jerusalem where the spirits of just men made perfect are now in the presents of God, awaiting the resurrection of their glorified bodies and the glorified regeneration of the present corrupted heaven=universe and earth.

[Hb12:22 But **ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem

, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]

[Rv21:1 And **I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.]

Heavenly Jerusalem and New Jerusalem are not the same.

 

[pablope]

Heavenly Jerusalem and New Jerusalem are not the same.

I have observed…you believe in Bible alone…but do not cite chapter and verse.

So let me ask, where is the chapter and verse in the Bible that the Heavenly Jerusalem is not the same as the New Jerusalem?

 

[po18guy]

Heavenly Jerusalem and New Jerusalem are not the same.

This is going to be extremely difficult for you unless and until you can take your protestant lenses off. You have been taught something - to extract a particular meaning from the scriptures - that had not appeared on the face of this earth before 1500s Germany. It might help to ponder that first. Not that everything you have been taught is wrong, but some of it must be only the opinion of those who taught you. You are neither held responsible for this, nor blamed for it. Rather, you are commended for seeking the reasons for ancient Jewish and Christian belief.

If you can, question your learning first, then dig deep into history, as praying for those who have suffered bodily death (but made live in the spirit) has been practiced for 1600-1700 years before Martin Luther was born. Orthodox Jews did it. Orthodox and Catholic Christians offer such prayers. And, why not? Time has stopped for them, and it never existed for God. We cannot apply the worldly aspect of time to the eternal.

 

[blanchardman]

I have observed…you believe in Bible alone…but do not cite chapter and verse.

So let me ask, where is the chapter and verse in the Bible that the Heavenly Jerusalem is not the same as the New Jerusalem?

Rev.21:22 NEW Jerusalem has no temple.
Hebrews8:5 Heavenly Jerusalem does.