Purgatory

[Fidelis]

Oh my…my, my, my…

“The Church does not, but if I as an individual gain an Indulgence, I can give it to the souls in Purgatory rather than keep it for myself.”

Maybe we need to back up a little.

What exactly is an indulgence?

How does one earn an indulgence?

What specifically does an indulgence do for the one possessing it?

Before you ask any further questions, maybe you should take a little time to read a few very short Catholic explanations of Purgatory and indulgences. Otherwise, you will be approaching it all scatter-shot and relying entirely on folks doing the best they can within the limitations of message boards. Here are a few basic resources to get you started:

Purgatory
catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711word.asp

Indulgences
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea1sb1.asp
catholic.com/library/primer_on_indulgences.asp
catholic.com/library/myths_about_indulgences.asp

After open-mindedly reading these, I think your remaining questions will be far more grounded and systematic, and you will learn much more.

 

[jmcrae]

I know the Catechism says that “Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.”, but it doesn’t seem to say how. Since the Church has no jurisdiction to apply them directly to souls in Purgatory (at least specifically), how do they get applied?

On page 19 of the English edition of the Handbook of Indulgences, it states that “Both partial and plenary Indulgences can always be applied to the dead as sufferages.”

From the Baltimore Catechism:

**Q. 868. How and when may we apply Indulgences for the benefit of the souls in Purgatory? **

A. We may apply Indulgences for the benefit of the souls in Purgatory by way of intercession; whenever this application is mentioned and permitted by the Church in granting the Indulgence; that is, when the Church declares that the Indulgence granted is applicable to the souls of the living or the souls in Purgatory; so that we may gain it for the benefit of either.

I agree that we can “give” indulgences that we gain to souls in Purgatory, but wouldn’t that be possible only by asking God to accept them for those (specific) souls?

We can also offer them to the most needy soul in Purgatory, or to the soul who would gain the greatest benefit from it - we don’t have to know them by name.

 

[jmcrae]

Oh my…my, my, my…

“The Church does not, but if I as an individual gain an Indulgence, I can give it to the souls in Purgatory rather than keep it for myself.”

Maybe we need to back up a little.

What exactly is an indulgence?

From The Handbook of Indulgences, page 19 (NORMS FOR INDULGENCES).

“An indulgence is the remission in the eyes of God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose culpable element has already been taken away. The Christian faithful who are rightly disposed and observe the definite, prescribed conditions gain this remission through the effective assistance of the Church, which, as the minister of redemption, authoritatively distributes and applies the treasury of the expiatory works of Christ and the Saints.”

How does one earn an indulgence?

From the Baltimore Catechism:

Q. 858. What must we do to gain an Indulgence?
A. To gain an Indulgence we must be in the state of grace and perform the works enjoined.

**
Q. 859. Besides being in a state of grace and performing the works enjoined, what else is necessary for the gaining of an Indulgence? **
A. Besides being in a state of grace and performing the works enjoined, it is necessary for the gaining of an
Indulgence to have at least the general intention of gaining it.

**Q. 860. How and why should we make a general intention to gain all possible Indulgences each day? **
A. We should make a general intention at our morning prayers to gain all possible Indulgences each day, because
several of the prayers we say and good works we perform may have Indulgences attached to them, though we are
not aware of it.

**
Q. 861. What works are generally enjoined for the gaining of Indulgences? **
A. The works generally enjoined for the gaining of Indulgences are: The saying of certain prayers, fasting, and the use of certain articles of devotion; visits to Churches or altars, and the giving of alms. For the gaining of Plenary Indulgences it is generally required to go to confession and Holy Communion and pray for the intention of the Pope.

Q. 862. What does praying for a person’s intention mean?
A. Praying for a person’s intention means praying for whatever he prays for or desires to obtain through prayer – some spiritual or temporal favors.

One example of an Indulgence is to read the Scriptures attentively for a period of 30 minutes without interruption.

Presuming that we have recently been to Confession (a typical guideline is that we should have been to Confession within the past 8 days or so) and that we are in the state of grace - if we at least have the intention of gaining an Indulgence at the time that we are reading the Scriptures attentively for a period of at least 30 minutes without interruption, then we gain a partial Indulgence.

It becomes a Plenary Indulgence when we also receive Holy Communion on the same day (at any time of the day) and, also on the same day, at any time of the day, we pray one Our Father, one Hail Mary, and one Glory Be for the intentions of the Pope.

What specifically does an indulgence do for the one possessing it?

It either partially or fully remits the temporal punishment due to sin, depending upon whether it is a partial or plenary Indulgence.

I hope this helps you.

 

[clmowry]

Oh my…my, my, my…

“The Church does not, but if I as an individual gain an Indulgence, I can give it to the souls in Purgatory rather than keep it for myself.”

Maybe we need to back up a little.

What exactly is an indulgence?

How does one earn an indulgence?

What specifically does an indulgence do for the one possessing it?

Take a look at the Catechism 1471-1479. That might help you get up to speed.

Chuck

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt2.htm#x

 

[Ginger2]

jm,

Then protestants can’t receive indulgences because they are not expecting anything in return for their prayers and other good works.

It seems to me Catholics should give all their indulgences to the protestants in purgatory - they are certainly the most needy.

 

[rlg94086]

jm,

Then protestants can’t receive indulgences because they are not expecting anything in return for their prayers and other good works.

It seems to me Catholics should give all their indulgences to the protestants in purgatory - they are certainly the most needy.

Indeed! If they avoided mortal sin without the Sacraments of Penance and Reconciliation, they have a lot of stored up temporal punishment for unconfessed venial sin to suffer in Purgatory. If they didn’t make it to Purgatory, our prayers won’t help, but they won’t go unwasted.

 

[water]

jm,

Then protestants can’t receive indulgences because they are not expecting anything in return for their prayers and other good works.

It seems to me Catholics should give all their indulgences to the protestants in purgatory - they are certainly the most needy.

As Catholics, we don’t just pray for Catholics - but for the whole world.

“For the sake of His Sorrowful Passion, Have mercy on us and on the whold world” - from The Divine Mercy prayer.

This prayer is also for Holy Souls as well
“Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fire of Hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who most need of your mercy.”

There is also a Heroic Act for the Holy Souls.

 

[jmcrae]

It seems to me Catholics should give all their indulgences to the protestants in purgatory - they are certainly the most needy.

I think so, too, and that is, in fact, my personal practice, because all of my ancestors from 1560 AD were Protestants. (I am the only Catholic in my whole family - everyone else is Protestant or something else. I even have a relative who is a priestess in the Wicca religion, and another who is a pagan Shaman for a native tribe in the North.)

A priest once told me that some of my ancestors have probably been in Purgatory for more than 400 years because there was no one to pray for them.

So, yes, I zealously collect Indulgences and offer them for my ancestors, and for any other poor Protestants who have no one to pray for them.

 

[Odell]

may I add to the question:

If Christ died for our sins, what did he suffer for? Wouldn’t it be so that we won’t have to suffer for our sin?

God disciplines us even though he has washed us from our sins. Once a person becomes a Christian does not mean that there are no further punishments for sins. “Because Jesus blood is good enough for you.” (Heb 12:5-11) verse 6 “for whom the Lord loves he disciplines.” Do you not think that we will be disciplined for unrepentant sins after we die?

 

[water]

God disciplines us even though he has washed us from our sins. Once a person becomes a Christian does not mean that there are no further punishments for sins. “Because Jesus blood is good enough for you.” (Heb 12:5-11) verse 6 “for whom the Lord loves he disciplines.” Do you not think that we will be disciplined for unrepentant sins after we die?

Add another passage to your reply:

Colossians 1: 24 “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of His Body, which is the church”.

 

[MariaG]

Before you ask any further questions, maybe you should take a little time to read a few very short Catholic explanations of Purgatory and indulgences. Otherwise, you will be approaching it all scatter-shot and relying entirely on folks doing the best they can within the limitations of message boards. Here are a few basic resources to get you started:

Purgatory
catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711word.asp

Indulgences
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea1sb1.asp
catholic.com/library/primer_on_indulgences.asp
catholic.com/library/myths_about_indulgences.asp

After open-mindedly reading these, I think your remaining questions will be far more grounded and systematic, and you will learn much more.

Thought I would repost this as it didn’t seem to get any attention the first time around.

But thanks Fidelis.

I am teaching a class on purgatory to my youth group, and possibly one non-Catholic youth who wanted to learn more about what Catholics believe. I copied your answer about Substitionary attonement. It was succint and easy to understand. Hope you don’t mind. (Jimmy Akin wrote some great stuff on it, but I am not looking to go indepth, just skim the surface and your answer is perfect:thumbsup: )

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Just a note.

Trying to understand indulgences and purgatory separate from the saving Grace of Christ’s blood is impossible for it is Christ’s blood that will cleanse us during/in purgatory. (Purgatory is not actually defined as a place although it is commonly referred to as such. JPII said he thought it should be thought more as a process, one that could be instataneous.)

God Bless,
Maria

 

[rlg94086]

Just a note.

Trying to understand indulgences and purgatory separate from the saving Grace of Christ’s blood is impossible for it is Christ’s blood that will cleanse us during/in purgatory. (Purgatory is not actually defined as a place although it is commonly referred to as such. JPII said he thought it should be thought more as a process, one that could be instataneous.)

God Bless,
Maria

Yep. In fact, when I was out with my Romanian Baptist friend a couple of weeks ago, he didn’t have too much problem with the idea of Purgatory (I had explained it to him previously). However, we did discuss the fact that there is no time outside of this material world. Also, once you leave/finish Purgatory, you are in eternal paradise. What percentage of infinity is Purgatory?

For the mathematically challenged, if you divide anything by a larger number you get a smaller number. If you divide by infinity, the answer approaches zero (i.e. instantaneous). JPII must have taken Calculus.

 

[Fidelis]

Thought I would repost this as it didn’t seem to get any attention the first time around.

But thanks Fidelis.

I am teaching a class on purgatory to my youth group, and possibly one non-Catholic youth who wanted to learn more about what Catholics believe. I copied your answer about Substitionary attonement. It was succint and easy to understand. Hope you don’t mind. (Jimmy Akin wrote some great stuff on it, but I am not looking to go indepth, just skim the surface and your answer is perfect:thumbsup: )

God Bless,
Maria

You’re welcome, Maria–of course I don’t mind.

I just did a talk two weeks ago on the Four Last Things which included a section on Purgatory. Below is the outline for the Purgatory part–you are welcome to use and adapt it as necessary:

**Purgatory **

·What does the Catechism say about Purgatory? See CCC 1030-1031

·Those who go to Purgatory are already saved—already forgiven; they have died in the state of grace and are already on their way to heaven. It is NOT a “second chance” at heaven.

·The word “Purgatory” is not in the Bible—but neither is the word “Trinity” or “Incarnation” or many other things we believe as Christians. The word is not there, but the concept is biblical.

·We must be pure to stand before God. (see Revelation 21:27 and Hebrews 12:14).

·Purgatory does NOT negate Christ’s saving death on the Cross. Purgatory only addresses:
—Purifying us from attachment to venial sins.
—Temporal punishment due for sins already forgiven. Even though the *eternal *consequences of our sins are forgiven, in justice we bear responsibility to make amends for the *temporal *(or earthly) consequences. For example:

1. 2 Samuel 12:13-14—David’s sin with Bathsheba
2. Matthew 5:23-26—“paying the last penny”

·The nature of Purgatory is unknown, but it’s “suffering” differs essentially (in it’s very essence) from that of hell. In other words, it isn’t like the pain of hell. It’s “pains” and purging “fire” are the spiritual equivalent of our earthly penances.

Those in Purgatory endure this cleansing with joy, knowing they are headed for heaven. Those suffering the torments of hell, on the other hand, have no hope, which adds to their suffering.

·We can help those who are in Purgatory with our prayers and good works offered for that purpose. We can also lessen our own time in Purgatory in this way.

·Indulgences (CCC 1471)
—Come from the treasury of merits from Christ’s sacrifice and those of the saints (Col 1:24).
—Abuses at the time of the Reformation. ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia (Just because something good is abused does not, as a consequece, make it bad).

·Further biblical proof of Purgatory:

1. 2 Maccabees 12:44-46 (Judas Maccabeus)
2. The Unforgivable Sin (Matthew 12:32).
3. In 1 Corinthians 3:15, all of our works will be tested as in fire
4. 2 Timothy 1:16-18, St. Paul prays for Onesiphorus, who is apparently deceased.

Purgatory shows us the mercy of God who desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

Along with the articles I linked, hopefully this will add to your other preparations for your class.

 

[MariaG]

You’re welcome, Maria–of course I don’t mind.

I just did a talk two weeks ago on the Four Last Things which included a section on Purgatory. Below is the outline for the Purgatory part–you are welcome to use and adapt it as necessary:
Along with the articles I linked, hopefully this will add to your other preparations for your class.

Wow!!!

Thank you so much! That will save me alot of time:extrahappy:

 

[Fidelis]

Wow!!!

Thank you so much! That will save me alot of time:extrahappy:

Again, You’re welcome! :tiphat:

You may want to refresh the page before you copy it. I think I added some stuff while you were typing.

 

[MariaG]

Again, You’re welcome! :tiphat:

You may want to refresh the page before you copy it. I think I added some stuff while you were typing.

 

[Ginger2]

Let me try to recap…

According to Catholicism:

      Jesus suffered and died to open the door to heaven for us. Without his sacrifice no one could go to heaven.

      Jesus **did not** suffer and die to take the punishment for us.  We are forgiven, if we repent, but still have to pay restitution or make up for our sins.

       We can make up for our sins by saying certain prayers and doing specific good deeds - after a good confession.

How am I doing so far?

 

[rlg94086]

Let me try to recap…

According to Catholicism:

Jesus suffered and died to open the door to heaven for us. Without his sacrifice no one could go to heaven.

Jesus did not suffer and die to take the punishment for us. We are forgiven, if we repent, but still have to pay restitution or make up for our sins.

We can make up for our sins by saying certain prayers and doing specific good deeds - after a good confession.

How am I doing so far?

Poorly.

Jesus did suffer and die to take the eternal punishment for us. We are forgiven, if we repent, but still have to pay restitution or make up for temporal punishment for our already forgiven sins.

We can make up for all or part of our temporal punishment by saying certain prayers, reading the Bible, and doing specific good deeds - after a good confession.

 

[Fidelis]

Let me try to recap…

According to Catholicism:

      Jesus suffered and died to open the door to heaven for us. Without his sacrifice no one could go to heaven.

      Jesus **did not** suffer and die to take the punishment for us.  We are forgiven, if we repent, but still have to pay restitution or make up for our sins.

       We can make up for our sins by saying certain prayers and doing specific good deeds - after a good confession.

How am I doing so far?

OK, with just a couple of refinements:

Jesus did not suffer and die to take the punishment for us. We are forgiven, if we repent, but still have to pay restitution or make up for the temporal punishment due our sins.

We can make up for **the temporal punishment due for ** our sins by saying certain prayers and doing specific good deeds - after a good confession.

If you don’t make the distinction between the **eternal **punishment due our sins (the most important part) which is forgiven in baptism and, later, in Confession, from the **temporal **consequences (which we make amends for out of simple justice), you are in danger of mis-stating and misunderstanding the whole thing.