Purgatory

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Jesus did suffer and die to take the eternal punishment for us. .
From a Catholic theological viewpoint, this is inaccurate. That would be strict substitutionary atonement, which has been rejected by the Church.

From the Catechism:
603 **Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned. **But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all”, so that we might be “reconciled to God by the death of his Son”.
**Christ’s death is the unique and definitive sacrifice **
613 Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”, and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.
614 This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices. First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience.
**Jesus substitutes his obedience for our disobedience **
615 “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin”, when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”. Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.
You may also find this article helpful:

Substitutionary Atonement
scborromeo.org/papers/atone.PDF
 
Let me try to recap…
OK 🙂
According to Catholicism:

Jesus suffered and died to open the door to heaven for us. Without his sacrifice no one could go to heaven.
Getting close, try this:

“Jesus, the Son of God, freely suffered death for us in complete and free submission to the will of God, his Father. By his death he has conquered death, and so opened the possibility of salvation to all men.”
Jesus did not
suffer and die to take the punishment for us.

Nope.

Try:

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin,” when “he bore the sin of many,” and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous,” for “he shall bear their iniquities.” Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.”
We are forgiven, if we repent, but still have to pay restitution or make up for our sins.
Not really:

“The sacrament of Penance is a whole consisting in three actions of the penitent and the priest’s absolution. The penitent’s acts are repentance, confession or disclosure of sins to the priest, and the intention to make reparation and do works of reparation.”
We can make up for our sins by saying certain prayers and doing specific good deeds - after a good confession.
Nope. We can’t “do” anything to “make up” for our sins.

“All true satisfaction for sin must be a participation in the satisfaction for sin made by Christ through his death on the cross.”

“The confessor proposes the performance of certain acts of “satisfaction” or “penance” to be performed by the penitent in order to repair the harm caused by sin and to re-establish habits befitting a disciple of Christ.”
How am I doing so far?
You’re getting closer keep it up.

Chuck
 
Let me try to recap…

According to Catholicism:
  1. Code:
         Jesus suffered and died to open the door to heaven for us. Without his sacrifice no one could go to heaven.
  2. Code:
         Jesus **did not** suffer and die to take the punishment for us.  We are forgiven, if we repent, but still have to pay restitution or make up for our sins.
  3. Code:
          We can make up for our sins by saying certain prayers and doing specific good deeds - after a good confession.
How am I doing so far?
Hi Ginger, I was doing some skimming here as catchup, so I hope I follow all correctly. I numbered your points so I can reference them and respond to the best of my understanding.

#1 - Yes.
#2 - Just to clarify, the effort of restitution is the companion of true repentance. As faith cannot be separated from works, so our restitutory efforts cannot be separated from repentance. And no, when we sin it still hurts us.
#3 - I don’t think this has to happen after a good confession, but yes our prayers are efficacious toward our own purification or someone else. You can frequently find Scripture of God offering grace or mercy to person A because of the intercession of person B.

So how are we now? 🙂
 
New question…
“We can’t “do” anything to “make up” for our sins.”

Then what is the point of purgatory? Does it or does it not have to do with “paying back that dollar I stole”?
 
I would like Marcopolo, rig,clmowry to get together and do a simple recap in layman’s terms. Then when they are in agreeement that they have it right, post it so I can see.

jm can help if he likes. I am choosing the people whose speech seems the clearest to me.

Thanks.

And please be as brief as possible. I hate long explanations that tend to go off in many directions.
 
New question…
“We can’t “do” anything to “make up” for our sins.”

Then what is the point of purgatory? Does it or does it not have to do with “paying back that dollar I stole”?
I think the person who said that means that only by God’s mercy does anything we do have any graceful effect. We are ultimately cleansed by Him, not ourselves. But that person can clarify if not.
 
I’m just going to wait until we have a Catholic consensus on a summarization. One like I did in post #78 - only correct according to Catholicism.

Hopefully that will get us to my second question - which may actually be my 100th question by the time we get there.
 
I’m just going to wait until we have a Catholic consensus on a summarization. One like I did in post #78 - only correct according to Catholicism.

Hopefully that will get us to my second question - which may actually be my 100th question by the time we get there.
Ok, I’ll give it a first shot.

I think primary problem is that you are throwing many related but distinctly different beliefs into the same discussion.

Maybe starting with some definitions would help us better understand each other?

Salvation: The forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone.

Justification: The gracious action of God which frees us from sin and communicates the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Rom 3:22). Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

Sanctifying Grace: The grace which heals our human nature wounded by sin by giving us a share in the divine life of the Trinity. It is a habitual, supernatural gift which continues the work of sanctifying us - of making us perfect, holy, and Christlike.

Satisfaction (for Sin): An act whereby the sinner makes amends for sin, especially in reparation to God for offenses against him. The penance given by the confessor in the Sacrament of penance constitutes such satisfaction. All true satisfaction for sin must be a participation in the satisfaction for sin made by Christ through his death on the cross.

Interior penance: a conversion of heart toward God and away from sin, which implies the intention to change ones life because of hope in divine mercy.

External acts of penance: include fasting, prayer, and almsgiving.

Sacrament of Penance: The liturgical celebration of Gods forgiveness of the sins of the penitent, who is thus reconciled with God and with the Church. The acts of the penitent - contrition, the confession of sins, and satisfaction or reparation - together with the prayer of absolution by the priest, constitute the essential elements of the Sacrament of Penance

Purgatory: A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in Gods friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.
 
From a Catholic theological viewpoint, this is inaccurate. That would be strict substitutionary atonement, which has been rejected by the Church.

From the Catechism:
You may also find this article helpful:

Substitutionary Atonement
scborromeo.org/papers/atone.PDF
Hi Fidelis,

Perhaps I was expressing it wrong…
[602](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/602.htm’)😉 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers. . . with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake."402** Man’s sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.403 By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God “made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”**404
 
I would like Marcopolo, rig,clmowry to get together and do a simple recap in layman’s terms. Then when they are in agreeement that they have it right, post it so I can see.

jm can help if he likes. I am choosing the people whose speech seems the clearest to me.

Thanks.

And please be as brief as possible. I hate long explanations that tend to go off in many directions.
Hi Ginger2,
  1. We can’t “get together” as far as I know.
  2. I don’t see a need for a layman’s recap.
  3. Knock off the patronizing tone.
Here is a section from the Catechism, which is very readable and explains the double consequence of sin. I hope it helps.
The punishments of sin
[1472](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1472.htm’)😉
To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84
[1473](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1473.htm’)😉 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."85
 
Hi Fidelis,

Perhaps I was expressing it wrong…
602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: “You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers. . . with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake**.” Man’s sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death. By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God “made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” **
Exactly. Nothing about Christ dying in our stead. Rather, Christ made eternal satisfation for the sin of the world.
 
Quote rig:

“1) We can’t “get together” as far as I know.”

Why not? You can’t send messages are the others not accepting?
I would like some consensus so that I don’t get ten different answers and then go around in a circle with other telling me I misunderstood or that’s not what “he” meant, etc.

“2) I don’t see a need for a layman’s recap.”

Give it to me straight. I don’t want to read an entire book to get an answer for a basic question. I think it can be done.

“3) Knock off the patronizing tone.”
If that’s the way you feel, quit responding to my posts. Problem solved.

“I hope it helps.” I doubt that. I doubt you want you deal with helping me understand. So don’t bother.

Anyone else who feels that way can simply stop posting. If I have no one responding to me, it will obviously end this patronizing dialog.

Your choice. You have free will no one is making you talk to me.
 
Exactly. Nothing about Christ dying in our stead. Rather, Christ made eternal satisfation for the sin of the world.
Okay, so we are in agreement. I just worded it poorly. I didn’t say Christ died in our stead, but I should have said his sacrifice saves us from eternal punishment, rather than saying he received our eternal punishment. It still requires us to repent and confess our sins, but the eternal punishment is removed. All that is left is temporal punishment. Is that better? 🙂
 
Then what is the point of purgatory? Does it or does it not have to do with “paying back that dollar I stole”?
**CAREFUL! **You are going exactly where I said you could be in danger of going. Here is again:
If you don’t make the distinction between the **eternal **punishment due our sins (the most important part) which is forgiven in baptism and, later, in Confession, from the ****temporal ****consequences (which we make amends for out of simple justice), you are in danger of mis-stating and misunderstanding the whole thing.
So couldn’t have Jesus assumed both the eternal and temporal consequences of our sins? Wasn’t his sacrifice sufficient?

Of course it was. But as was shown earlier from Scripture God often choose to allow us to suffer the earthly consequences of our sins. There are a couple of reasons for this.
  1. Simple justice. If we continue to sin after we have come to the saving knowledge of Christ, we should be responsible in some way for our actions. If not, we could sin with impunity.
  2. Suffering the earthly (temporal) consequences of our sins serves as discipline in making us children of God and fit for heaven:
It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
(Hebrews 12:7-13).
 
Okay, so we are in agreement. I just worded it poorly. I didn’t say Christ died in our stead, but I should have said his sacrifice saves us from eternal punishment, rather than saying he received our eternal punishment. It still requires us to repent and confess our sins, but the eternal punishment is removed. All that is left is temporal punishment. Is that better? 🙂
Much! 👍
 
Quote rig:

“1) We can’t “get together” as far as I know.”

Why not? You can’t send messages are the others not accepting?
I would like some consensus so that I don’t get ten different answers and then go around in a circle with other telling me I misunderstood or that’s not what “he” meant, etc.

“2) I don’t see a need for a layman’s recap.”

Give it to me straight. I don’t want to read an entire book to get an answer for a basic question. I think it can be done.

“3) Knock off the patronizing tone.”
If that’s the way you feel, quite responding to my posts. Problem solved.

“I hope it helps.” I doubt that. I doubt you want you deal with helping me understand. So don’t bother.

Anyone else who feels that way can simply stop posting. If I have no one responding to me, it will obviously end this patronizing dialog.

Your choice. You have free will no one is making you talk to me.
Fair enough. Christ’s peace be with you.
 
New question…
“We can’t “do” anything to “make up” for our sins.”

Then what is the point of purgatory? Does it or does it not have to do with “paying back that dollar I stole”?
Jesus took our eternal punishment - He descended into Hell. However, being God, He could not remain in Hell - He rose again from the dead, ascended body and spirit into Heaven (and because He at this point now had a human nature and a human body, His human nature and human body blew the locks off the doors of Heaven - in a manner of speaking - and caused it to be possible for human beings to go to Heaven, which they couldn’t before) and is now seated at the right hand of the Father, as we are told in the Apostles’ Creed.

The reason we go to Purgatory is not to be punished, but to be purified. Now, being purified is darned uncomfortable, and it is tempting to think of it as a “punishment” because of the fact that it is (let’s be honest) very painful to let go of our petty jealousies, our bad habits, and our material attachments.

Penances that we do here on earth, including Indulgences, are also not “punishments” - these, too, are intended for our purification, and it’s good to do them even if we haven’t committed any sins or needed to go to Confession recently, because they help us to grow in the spiritual life.

Getting back to my example about reading the Scriptures for a period of 30 minutes without interruption, I’m sure you can see how that would be spiritually beneficial even to someone who wasn’t doing it as a penance after going to Confession.

I think that to speak of “making up for sins” is a kind of beginner-level way of thinking of what it is that we are really doing when we are doing penances and gaining Indulgences, because really what the intent behind these things is, is to develop habits of virtue, which would then displace any tendencies or habits that we might have towards sin.

Do you remember the parable that Jesus told about the seven devils? Remember how the man got rid of his devil? (Maybe some kind of a bad habit, or a small sin.) But because he didn’t replace his “devil” with something else to take its place his “house” was empty, and so the same “devil” came back, with seven more “devils” (that is, he became seven times the sinner that he had been before) - what this parable teaches us is that, if we are to get rid of a bad habit or a sin permanently, what we need to do is not only get rid of it, but replace it with a virtue.

So, for example, someone who is trying to quit smoking not only has to stop putting cigarettes in his mouth - he has to put something else in his mouth instead of the cigarettes - maybe chew some gum, or drink a glass of water - or else he will always be struggling with the temptation to smoke.

The only way to make the temptation go away is to replace the bad habit with a good habit.

Penances are really just good habits that we need to develop - the habit of praying, the habit of reading the Bible, the habit of helping the poor, and so on.
 
PS: Paying back the dollar you stole is *justice. *

Penance would be not only to pay back the dollar that you stole, but also to give an extra dollar to someone who needs it more than you do - thus giving two dollars back for the one that you took.
 
Ok a couple more and we should be good to go:

Indulgence: The remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sin whose guilt has already been forgiven. A properly disposed member of the Christian faithful can obtain an indulgence under prescribed conditions through the help of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints. An indulgence is partial if it removes part of the temporal punishment due to sin, or plenary if it removes all punishment.

Temporal Punishment: Purification of the unhealthy attachment to creatures, which is a consequence of sin that perdures even after death. We must be purified either during our earthly life through prayer and a conversion which comes from fervent charity or after death in purgatory

Communion of Saints: The unity in Christ of all the redeemed, those on earth and those who have died

Now:

I think everyone is agreed only something “holy” can enter Heaven, but lets make sure we both mean the same thing by this:

When I as a Catholic say “Sanctified”, “Justified” or “Holy”, I really mean it.

I don’t mean: “I’m really in a state of sin but because I’m covered by the blood of Christ I’m holy.”

When we say we are called to be “perfect” and “saints” we really mean it.

When we say nothing “un-holy” can enter Heaven, we don’t mean “nothing uncovered by the blood of Christ” we really mean only that which is truly holy will enter heaven.

So:

Someone in Purgatory has been assured of their salvation and has been justified by the free gift of the Grace of God through Faith in Jesus Christ.

That person, however, was not “perfectly” sanctified, Holy and Christlike at the point of his/her physical death.

So before that person can enter Heaven, he/she must be made “perfect”. Purgatory is that “undefined” process by which one is made completely and truly holy.

It is not defined as a certain “place” where you spend a certain amount of “time.”

Exactly how this purification takes place and how long it takes is unknown. What is known is that it involves some amount of “suffering.”

As members of Christ’s Body when one suffers we all suffer. As members of the same body we are able to offer our prayers of intercession and our acts of Charity on behalf of not just ourselves, but also on behalf of the “suffering” members of the body of Christ, both on this earth and in purgatory.
 
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