Question about forgiveness reply from apologist

[c659smith]

I don’t know if you’re going to heaven or not. It’s not up to me. But in fact, according to Islam, rejecting or denying one of God’s prophets is equivalent to denying all of them, and to disbelieving in God. So to disbelieve in one prophet is a sin against God.

So to dis-believe in Isaiah or to re-write what a prophet said would amount to the same thing right?

 

[kliner]

Sister Amy how does a Muslem get to heaven?

What is the path?

Can a person not of the Islamic faith get to heaven?

What if we are not Muslim?

How do Muslims get to heaven? Easy. God forgives them and admits them to Paradise.

How do people who aren’t Muslim get to heaven according to Islam? Same way–if God forgives them and admits them. So do non-Muslims get into heaven? Depends on the reason they weren’t Muslim.

Let me reiterate that Muslims believe God is Just, and God is Merciful–two attributes which are complementary, not contradictory. And Muslims believe God has called us to believe in Him, and submit to His will–that is the path. To do otherwise, deliberately and knowingly–that would be disobedience to God…

But Sister Amy the Messiah for you has not come yet and there is no path is that not true?

But the Islamic Faith states we are all infidels (non believers) in the eyes of Allah are we not?

In the Hadith, which are regarded almost as important as the Koran, there is quite unabashed reference to Muhammad as a slave owner. He is even held as an exemplar in this regard. Both the Koran and the Hadith are treated extremely reverentially by Muslims and there is always the cry of “Back to the Koran and Hadith” whenever enterprising theologians try to give an altered meaning. That is why we have to look at the attitude to slavery as shown in these two primary sources of Islam.

9.29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

9.73: O Prophet! strive hard [make war] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.

Is the above not from the Koran? that all non believers of Islam there destination is hell

Can a person not of the Islamic faith get to heaven?

This thread is about forgiveness in the Christian faith and it was brought up by the OP about the difference in the Christian and Muslim belief in forgiveness and whether or not non-Muslims can be forgiven and obtain paradise from Allah. I don’t see how they are not related. Maybe you should ask to be a moderator

MW

If you’d like, please look above your post and tell me if those are on topic. It was not brought up in the OP, nor is it suggested by the title of this thread. I am merely trying to avoid having to sort through two different topics in one thread. If you want to learn about Islam, start a thread.

Also, I don’t have to be a moderator to want to avoid sorting through irrelevant posts.

 

[geekborj]

I’m sorry y’all. I am not and have never been Catholic and words like “reconciliation” and “contrition” seem to not quite make sense to me here since I’m unfamiliar with all the laden connotations.

The meaning of “reconcilliation” and “contrition” is explained somewhere below. I would like to answer the other question.

I’m glad you like to know more. Acceptance that you need to know is the first step to Wisdom.

If you die before being able to confess but had the intention to do so, then God forgives you?

So you don’t really need to go to the priest because God can forgive you anyway, as long as you’re really sorry.

This is what I don’t understand.

“… but had the intention to do so, then God forgives you?” If truly contrite, the answer is a sounding YES since God should know it! Being contrite is being true to your heart that you are sorry because you offended God not just because of some personal, non-God centered reason. Thus, “being sorry” is a loaded statement.

Now, as for the necessity of confession to a priest (or bishop) the idea goes like this. Assuming you think that you have a contrite heart and truly sorry for your sins. What you would have is just hope that God truly forgives you. The problem of the human heart is that sometimes it can deceive us and reason out. Moreover, human heart is always doubtful and the Devil can take that opportunity to steal you again.

God knows our human frailty and the need for a tangible proof. The Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) is a gift from God. IT IS ALSO AN ASSURANCE THAT WE ARE FORGIVEN. Note that it is ALSO a confirmation that we are forgiven because the Sacrament requires a Contrite Heart and thus intention.

I hope this clears out your doubt on the sacrament. You actually feel the difference after Confession, that’s how God truly loves us.

For more: catholic.com/library/Confession.asp

 

[c659smith]

If you’d like, please look above your post and tell me if those are on topic. It was not brought up in the OP, nor is it suggested by the title of this thread. I am merely trying to avoid having to sort through two different topics in one thread. If you want to learn about Islam, start a thread.

Also, I don’t have to be a moderator to want to avoid sorting through irrelevant posts.

these are all about forgiveness as I see it.

Do you want to just make it one religion on forgiveness and it’s teachings?

 

[geekborj]

I answered this in post #4, I think. If you think because God CAN forgive sins outside the sacrament and therefore refuse the sacrament He instituted…then that is a problem and a denial of His will and providence.

As I said, true repentance involves the intent to go to confession when able. When you confess to a priest, you ARE confessing to Christ. The priest has the gift of acting in the person of Christ in the confessional. This gift is from God alone. God alone forgives sins–normatively through His ministers. All this can be found in the Catechism under “Penance-Sacrament”.

That is the Catholic teaching, which is what you have asked for.

Well written! My answer is not this good but close enough. Keep it up!

 

[rinnie]

Sister Amy i am sorry if i am repeating myself i just came on here and didnt read all the posts. What we believe is that in order to be forgiven yes we must be sorry for our sins and repent. If we are in grave sin we must go to a priest and confess our sins. Those are the words in todays lingo. In the Catholic Religon we we have the sacraments. That is what makes up the church. Just as we believe that Jesus had the authority to forgive people. and because we believe Jesus is God when he gave that authority to the disciples we believe that. Now i can understand if you dont believe that Jesus Christ is not God how this can be hard to understand. But see Amy beings that we believe that Jesus is God and that he gave the authority to his disciples to forgive sin, that is why see it the way we do. Do you understand?

 

[Tim_Hayes]

Sister Amy there are a few things that one must know about human nature and why God instituted a formal means of forgiveness through priests.

PRIDE is the number one sin that causes to many of us to part ways with God whether it be for a short or long time.

Now if you commit a bad sin especially of the mortal type sin that more easily damages the relationship with God, then he instituted the priesthood.

The reason people do not go to confession when they should is becasue of pride, they do not want to tell a fellow human being how naughty, bad or evil they have been, BECAUSE it will reveal to some other human person just how hypocrital or sinful the person is.

If we cannot humble ourselves before another person then we are TRULY NOT SORRY for our sins.

It is in our fallen human nature that we want people to think highly or better of us. Any thing that detracts from our perceived self esteem is not something we want to see or hear about.

How many wrong doings do we hold in our hearts knowing secretly down deep if someone else knew about those things it would detract from our own sense of worth in relation to those other people and hence publically it would be known by someone that we may not be all that we think we are.

Its like a secret, it always makes us feel better when someone else shares the burden of our “secret”.

We are tangible people who need some sort of tangible relief. It is by confession that we receive that tangible relief. How much better would we feel if we were praying about our sins in private and asking for forgiveness and suddenly God appeared and actually said, “your sins are forgiven”.

God knows this so he introduced the concept of confession to another fellow human being or groups of fellow human beings, so that the priest acting as Gods portal can say, “your sins are forgiven”.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Sure there was more, but something that will never make sense to me is putting a man between me and God and going to a man instead of turning only to God–because of my beliefs.

If you think confessing to a priest is not turning to God alone, then we have not communicated what confession is to you.

I also don’t know what you do with Jesus saying to the apostles, “Whoever hears you hears me.” Do you respond to Jesus, “No, I only go directly to God. I don’t need Matthew or John or Paul. I don’t put men between me and God. Why should I go to them to find out what God wills.”

Otherwise there is a lack of understanding of how God works with us in the first place.

 

[rinnie]

Now also Amy if you could not get to comfession, and embrace this great gift God has left for us. I am sure that common sense tells us if we were in an accident or whatever and couldnt truely get there of course God knows that and would not hold it against us. People see confession as some horrible trial of some sort. Where what it truely is Sister Amy a relief. It is like you have a horrible headache and it gets worse and worse and then you go to a dr and he fixes it . That is what a priest is, He helps get rid of our problems and goes with us to God to help us be better people. He is like an Angel here on earth, who we can see, who is only here to do good and Gods work. And the best part is he can never ever repeat what we have said. He can only pray for our soul and help us. Believe it or not confession is a wonder gift God left us.

 

[c659smith]

TimHayes how true it is what you write. Yesterday was the washing of the feet at the last supper.

If we cannot humble ourselves before another person then we are TRULY NOT SORRY for our sins.

The Apostle John also indicates that during the eating of the Passover, Jesus “rose from supper, laid aside his garments, and girded himself with a towel. Then he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded” (John 13:4, 5). All this was a powerful object lesson on the spirit of service and love which ought to characterize the disciples of Jesus Christ; it was a humiliating rebuke to the rivalry and place-seeking which existed among the Twelve. Peter saw at once the utter incongruity of the Lord stooping down and washing his feet; he therefore remonstrated, declaring with his usual vigor, “You shall never wash my feet” (John 13:4, 5).

At this point a new element enters the picture. Up to this moment it had appeared only that Jesus was trying to teach His disciples of the spirit of love and brotherhood which He desired to see in them. But now a quite new truth emerges from the object lesson before them: Jesus must also cleanse His disciples of the guilt involved in daily living in the flesh. “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me” (John 13:9). Peter caught the point of spiritual cleansing in a flash. He cried out in all sincerity, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” The reply of Jesus is comforting indeed, “He who has [been] bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over” (John 13:9, 10).

This is the sins we committ after baptism for it is not our bodies that need washing but what we have stepped in (sin) (pride)
for how hard it is to accept a gift rather then to give.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

 

[Reuben_J]

Depends. It’s not up to me to decide who goes to heaven and who doesn’t. There are examples of people who would get to heaven who weren’t Muslim. Not everyone who isn’t Muslim, for example, actually rejected Islam–some people never heard about it. If they never heard about it, then Muslims believe they will be tested by God on the Day of Judgment.

God is Just, that’s the principle.

So I can’t say at all whether one group of people is going to heaven or not–even I don’t know if I will go. I do believe that God is Just and that everyone will get what they earned.

Clever answer. It depends indeed!

Christians are wary of Muslims’ perception that God is Just. Your ‘just’ is very subjective. There are certain category of people that Allah purposely puts in hell.

As for Christians can be forgiven and go to heaven, it’s not likely unless he/she a bad Christian, i.e. does not believe that Jesus is both human and divine. In fact the Quran says they will go to hell, shirk (associating God with partner) being an unforgiveable sin.

And they are called to accept Islam or face terrible punishment, including being cursed “as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers” (v. 47) – that is, being transformed into apes and pigs (2:63-65). Allah will forgive anything except shirk, the associating of partners with him (v. 48). Because the People of the Book are accursed, they shall soon be “cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty” (v. 56).

So I agree. It really depends.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Its my understanding of traditional RC belief that an act of perfect contrition absolves a sin, when one cannot get to a priest.

The reason is because an act of perfect contrition means you are sorry for your sin not only because you fear hell but because that sin has offended God.

Isn’t this still the post-Vatican 2 understanding, or has it changed?

 

[inJESUS]

I can turn directly to God in sincere repentance, and I do expect the best from Him alone. If you do or if you don’t, it’s your own business.

and if you want to get married, do you turn to Allah or to a sheikh? it’s the same principle…it’s not whether He can or cannot, or whether He does or does not, it’s about folliwing what He asks…

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes I did know what you stated but contradictions are there and what would you define as their own land is that not the world? This is not pure.

Today’s Islamic States for instance and their harsh laws.

Love is a keynote of Christianity that Islam lacks. In the words of one Muslim convert to Christianity, “Christianity is a religion of love; Islam is a religion of fear.” Muslims do not have the kind of loving, intimate relationship with God that Christians do. how much I love God and want to share with you in the feeling of God’s love and forgiveness

Your post unfortunately didn’t make sense to me–especially the beginning part. Basically all I get you saying is that God loves you more than me? Or that you love God more than I do? Seems kind of a pompous thing to say if you ask me, not that you did…

 

[Sister_Amy]

and if you want to get married, do you turn to Allah or to a sheikh? it’s the same principle…it’s not whether He can or cannot, or whether He does or does not, it’s about folliwing what He asks…

Am I impaired today? I don’t understand. No sheikh has been involved in my marriage planning thus far. Although there has been prayer, lots of prayer–prayer for guidance and other things. The sheikh might sign the contract when I get married but that’s pretty much it. I really don’t understand your post at all.

 

[Sister_Amy]

So to dis-believe in Isaiah or to re-write what a prophet said would amount to the same thing right?

I don’t really understand what you’re insinuating. Isaiah is not a prophet named in the Qur’an. But Muslims are required to “believe in” all prophets sent by God even though they don’t know who they all are.

That’s it.

I’m not sure what you mean though… guess I’m stupid today.

 

[Dauphin]

Its my understanding of traditional RC belief that an act of perfect contrition absolves a sin, when one cannot get to a priest.

The reason is because an act of perfect contrition means you are sorry for your sin not only because you fear hell but because that sin has offended God.

Isn’t this still the post-Vatican 2 understanding, or has it changed?

This is, and will always be the view of the Church. Everyone should note, though, that in an act of perfect contrition, there must be at least an implicit resolution to go to sacramental confession at the earliest opportunity.

Christ didn’t institute the sacrament of confession as an “option”.

 

[Sister_Amy]

How much better would we feel if we were praying about our sins in private and asking for forgiveness and suddenly God appeared and actually said, “your sins are forgiven”.

God knows this so he introduced the concept of confession to another fellow human being or groups of fellow human beings, so that the priest acting as Gods portal can say, “your sins are forgiven”.

I beg to differ. If this is the nature of human beings as you say, then why was it not instituted at the beginning?

I actually believe that we should humble ourselves only before God and not before another person. And before you say that it is only humbling someone before God, remember that in your post you said how difficult it is for someone to humble himself before another person.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Clever answer. It depends indeed!

Christians are wary of Muslims’ perception that God is Just. Your ‘just’ is very subjective. There are certain category of people that Allah purposely puts in hell.

Now tell me–don’t you also believe that people are going to Hell? Or do you think that God puts them there by accident instead of on purpose?

As for Christians can be forgiven and go to heaven, it’s not likely unless he/she a bad Christian, i.e. does not believe that Jesus is both human and divine. In fact the Quran says they will go to hell, shirk (associating God with partner) being an unforgiveable sin.

It is of course a violation of the first commandment, that we should have no god before God. It is denial of God’s right over us.

 

[rinnie]

You know Sister Amy dont you wonder why you are saying this about Jesus tonight. And it is tommorow that alot of People like yourself got the shock of thier life. Easter Sunday. Jesus rose from the dead, to take away death. For all of our sins you too Sister Amy, but you must believe. You see it was people who like yourself didnt believe in Jesus Christ who were afraid of him. He revealed himself to man, fullfilled every promise in the OT. Every one. And he will come again in Glory, to judge the living and the dead. I am sorry you cant feel this joy that we will have in our hearts tommorow. It is a wonderful hope, and Love to have someone lay down and die for us. It sure makes us feel special. and noone can make us feel loved like Jesus. You just dont know the joy you are missing,