Question about forgiveness reply from apologist

[Sister_Amy]

You know Sister Amy dont you wonder why you are saying this about Jesus tonight.

What exactly have I said about Jesus, hmm?

You see it was people who like yourself didnt believe in Jesus Christ who were afraid of him. He revealed himself to man, fullfilled every promise in the OT. Every one. And he will come again in Glory, to judge the living and the dead.

Of course I believe in Jesus Christ. I just believe something different than you.

I am sorry you cant feel this joy that we will have in our hearts tommorow. It is a wonderful hope, and Love to have someone lay down and die for us. It sure makes us feel special. and noone can make us feel loved like Jesus. You just dont know the joy you are missing,

You might not know this about me, so I’ll tell you–I was a Christian. And now I’m a Muslim–and I don’t feel any loss whatsoever. In fact, I actually know that nobody had to die to make God love me. Nobody had to die to give me hope in God’s mercy. So I have the joy of knowing that I can ask God’s forgiveness whenever I need to, and immediately. I have the joy of humbling myself before God every single day in ritual prayer, putting my face on the floor–the most amazing feeling in my life.

So trust me, I’ve been on both sides and I’m sure of which side is better.

 

[LaMar]

You might not know this about me, so I’ll tell you–I was a Christian. And now I’m a Muslim–and I don’t feel any loss whatsoever. In fact, I actually know that nobody had to die to make God love me. Nobody had to die to give me hope in God’s mercy. So I have the joy of knowing that I can ask God’s forgiveness whenever I need to, and immediately. I have the joy of humbling myself before God every single day in ritual prayer, putting my face on the floor–the most amazing feeling in my life.

So trust me, I’ve been on both sides and I’m sure of which side is better.

Hi Amy,

This is so interesting. I had no idea you were a convert. I read all your articles (you’re one of my favorites). I’ve actually learned much more about Islam in the last week than I have about the Catholic Church, largely thanks to you. You must have studied pretty intensely before converting.

It sounds like Islam worked a miracle for you. I’m so glad that you’re happy and fulfilled.

Salaam,

LaMar

 

[rinnie]

What exactly have I said about Jesus, hmm?

Of course I believe in Jesus Christ. I just believe something different than you.

You might not know this about me, so I’ll tell you–I was a Christian. And now I’m a Muslim–and I don’t feel any loss whatsoever. In fact, I actually know that nobody had to die to make God love me. Nobody had to die to give me hope in God’s mercy. So I have the joy of knowing that I can ask God’s forgiveness whenever I need to, and immediately. I have the joy of humbling myself before God every single day in ritual prayer, putting my face on the floor–the most amazing feeling in my life.

So trust me, I’ve been on both sides and I’m sure of which side is better.

See Sister amy I didnt say God had to die for me, God did it of his free will. And to say you were a Christian you couldnt have been. A Christian doesnt turn thier back on Jesus. You are either with me or against me. If you had the true Grace of God and accepted him in your heart you would never turn your back on him. As the parable says Your seed did not take root.

 

[c659smith]

Hi Amy,

This is so interesting. I had no idea you were a convert. I read all your articles (you’re one of my favorites). I’ve actually learned much more about Islam in the last week than I have about the Catholic Church, largely thanks to you. You must have studied pretty intensely before converting.

It sounds like Islam worked a miracle for you. I’m so glad that you’re happy and fulfilled.

Salaam,

LaMar

Mormons claim that to restore the true Church and true gospel to the earth, in 1820 God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in a grove of trees near his home. They told him that all professing Christians on the face of the earth were abominable and corrupt and that the true Church, having died out completely shortly after it began, was to be restored by Smith.

Mormons run into no small difficulty in reconciling the great apostasy theory with Christ’s promise in Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”

How could it be that Christ, who should have known better, would promise that his Church wouldn’t be overcome if he knew full well a great apostasy would make short shrift of it in a matter of decades? Was Christ lying? Obviously not. Was he mistaken? No. Did he miscalculate things? No, again. Christ’s divinity precluded such things.

What are we left with then? Could it be that Mormons are mistaken in their interpretation of such a crucial passage? This is the only tenable conclusion. If there were no great apostasy, then there could have been no need for a restoration of religious authority on the earth. There would be no “restored gospel,” and the entire premise of the Mormon church would be undercut.

The fact is that the only church with an unbroken historical line to apostolic days is the Catholic Church. Even many Protestants acknowledge this, though they argue that there was a need for the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century.

As non-Catholic historians admit, it can be demonstrated easily that early Church writers, such as Ignatius of Antioch, Eusebius, Clement of Rome, and Polycarp, had no conception of Mormon doctrine, and they knew nothing of a “great apostasy.”

Nowhere in their writings can one find references to Christians embracing any of the peculiarly Mormon doctrines, such as polytheism, polygamy, celestial marriage, and temple ceremonies. If the Church of the apostolic age was the prototype of today’s Mormon church, it must have had all these beliefs and practices. But why is there no evidence of them in the early centuries, before the alleged apostasy began?

 

[c659smith]

I don’t really understand what you’re insinuating. Isaiah is not a prophet named in the Qur’an. But Muslims are required to “believe in” all prophets sent by God even though they don’t know who they all are.

That’s it.

I’m not sure what you mean though… guess I’m stupid today.

So you just do away with prophets that have been in the old testament for hundreds and thousands of years before Mohammed?

How conveinent.

 

[c659smith]

Your post unfortunately didn’t make sense to me–especially the beginning part. Basically all I get you saying is that God loves you more than me? Or that you love God more than I do? Seems kind of a pompous thing to say if you ask me, not that you did…

If you were in afganistan,Iran,Saudi Arabia,etc…

1 what is the penalty if you a muslim married a christian?

1. What is the penalty for cheating on your husband?
2. What is the penalty if you convert to christianity?
3. What is the penalty for a Christian to evangalize in these countries?

Please answer these questions on this board as to not what the penalty is with Allah but from these countries that are Islamic States.

Loving and forgiving God?

Fear and unforgiving God?

You very well understood the question.

 

[Sister_Amy]

See Sister amy I didnt say God had to die for me, God did it of his free will. And to say you were a Christian you couldnt have been. A Christian doesnt turn thier back on Jesus. You are either with me or against me. If you had the true Grace of God and accepted him in your heart you would never turn your back on him. As the parable says Your seed did not take root.

God died!?

God doesn’t die.

And becoming Muslim was great for my faith, in fact I feel like I am properly loving Jesus now, as a true prophet of God, assured of his message. I also feel like I am properly following him now, worshiping God the same way that Jesus worshiped God.

 

[Sister_Amy]

So you just do away with prophets that have been in the old testament for hundreds and thousands of years before Mohammed?

How conveinent.

Actually, I would say that you are the one doing away with the prophets, because you don’t follow their message. They called people to worship God, alone, with no partners, and you call people to believe that Jesus is their redeemer and the son of God.

So I don’t believe Muslims “do away” with any prophets. I believe that Muslims follow the same message which was preached by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, that was preached by the prophets sent to the children of Israel, and the same message which they preached, the same message which was preached by Jesus Christ, peace be upon all of them.

And I believe in them and their message because God revealed it for all of mankind through the Prophet Muhammad (p.)

 

[kliner]

In fact, I actually know that nobody had to die to make God love me.

This is not a Catholic belief.

In the first chapter of the first book of the Bible (which is from the Jews), we learn of God’s love for us. We cannot “make” God love us. God loves us, period. Now, a Person claiming to be God incarnate came to the earth to restore and re-create His creation, Who chose to die and rise again to bring this about - who am I to question that? God could have “snapped his fingers” and brought about this redemption - but this is how He chose to accomplish it: by example of His Love for us. How much more am I able to love a God Who desires so much to be close to me that He lowered Himself and became one with His creation, in flesh, and gave an example of how to go about loving God?

Again, as I stressed in my previous post, I do not think that these things are unimportant to us as humans, such tangible things are very much apart of who we are. And, again, who knows this better than God?

So I have the joy of knowing that I can ask God’s forgiveness whenever I need to, and immediately.

Seeing this so often in your replies, I wonder if you’re at all reading what so many of us have put our time into writing. By the way, by saying “pre-molded” in a previous post, I was implying more of a [willed?] “deafness” than a certitude of your own beliefs.

I have the joy of humbling myself before God every single day in ritual prayer, putting my face on the floor–the most amazing feeling in my life.

Was humbling yourself not an option as a Christian? I mean, it’s great that you’re able to do that as a Muslim, but if you’re inferring that it wasn’t possible as a Christian, I must say that such a statement reeks of an exceedingly shallow knowledge of the Christian faith.

 

[Sister_Amy]

If you were in afganistan,Iran,Saudi Arabia,etc…

God willing I will be, in approximately 10 months or less!!!

1 what is the penalty if you a muslim married a christian?

I wouldn’t, because I believe in my faith, it’s the most important aspect of my life and I want (even need) my husband to share that world-view, so our lives our in devotion, submission to God. Moreover, marrying a Muslim ensures that I receive rights guaranteed to me, as a woman, in Islam. Were I to be a Christian or marry a Christian I would be deprived of those rights. All around a lose-lose situation. Not to mention the marriage wouldn’t even be valid.

1. What is the penalty for cheating on your husband?

The same as the penalty if my husband cheated on me. This is called “adultery.”

1. What is the penalty if you convert to christianity?

Hellfire–for glorifying a man to the status of divinity, and rejecting one of God’s prophets, and the Qur’an.

1. What is the penalty for a Christian to evangalize in these countries?

I don’t know, why?

Please answer these questions on this board as to not what the penalty is with Allah but from these countries that are Islamic States.

Are these countries Islamic states? Of course not. Iran, to be perfectly honest, tries. That’s the best bet really but it’s still not an Islamic state, not to mention the vast majority of Iran is Shi’a, the minority sect–85% of Muslims are Sunnis, as am I. Afghanistan can’t even really be called a state, much less an Islamic state–seriously, do you even KNOW what’s going on there??? Anyway, if one government wants to oppress it’s people, you still can’t say that that is Islam. These governments were not appointed by God, they are not infallible, they are not the source of Islamic law or creed or anything–just governments.

Loving and forgiving God?

Indeed! The Qur’an says: Wahuwa alghafooru alwadood. And he is Al-Ghafoor, Al-Wadood. Al-Ghafoor–the Forgiving. Al-Wadood, the Loving! So yes, definitely, Loving and Forgiving.

 

[Sister_Amy]

kliner–I think you missed the point of what I was saying as well. I’m not going to agree with you, if that’s what you want. I didn’t ask the question so I could believe in the answer you gave me–I clearly don’t believe in it now, and I didn’t believe in it before. Thank God.

It oughtn’t be some grave insult that I choose not to accept your beliefs just because you typed them out.

 

[kliner]

kliner–I think you missed the point of what I was saying as well. I’m not going to agree with you, if that’s what you want. I didn’t ask the question so I could believe in the answer you gave me–I clearly don’t believe in it now, and I didn’t believe in it before. Thank God.

I think I’ve stated explicitly that I respected your beliefs and am not trying to convert you. You asked and I answered.

And, specifically related to my saying that it appears that you’re not paying attention to our posts, it is not that you don’t accept them, but you repeatedly assume things that you can do as a Muslim that you “can’t” as a Christian (such as what I quoted just now: being able to go to God for forgiveness). So you are (repeatedly) ignoring what it is that we are telling you that you can do as a Christian.

And also, I don’t think that provocation of my beliefs (by a snide remark such as “… Thank God,” will help a fluid conversation in this context. So I ask you to refrain from doing it in the future, if you are open to dialog.

It oughtn’t be some grave insult that I choose not to accept your beliefs just because you typed them out.

I think I answered this above; I believe that this is a misunderstanding.

 

[c659smith]

God willing I will be, in approximately 10 months or less!!!

I wouldn’t, because I believe in my faith, it’s the most important aspect of my life and I want (even need) my husband to share that world-view, so our lives our in devotion, submission to God. Moreover, marrying a Muslim ensures that I receive rights guaranteed to me, as a woman, in Islam. Were I to be a Christian or marry a Christian I would be deprived of those rights. All around a lose-lose situation. Not to mention the marriage wouldn’t even be valid.

The same as the penalty if my husband cheated on me. This is called “adultery.”

Hellfire–for glorifying a man to the status of divinity, and rejecting one of God’s prophets, and the Qur’an.

I don’t know, why?

Are these countries Islamic states? Of course not. Iran, to be perfectly honest, tries. That’s the best bet really but it’s still not an Islamic state, not to mention the vast majority of Iran is Shi’a, the minority sect–85% of Muslims are Sunnis, as am I. Afghanistan can’t even really be called a state, much less an Islamic state–seriously, do you even KNOW what’s going on there??? Anyway, if one government wants to oppress it’s people, you still can’t say that that is Islam. These governments were not appointed by God, they are not infallible, they are not the source of Islamic law or creed or anything–just governments.

Indeed! The Qur’an says: Wahuwa alghafooru alwadood. And he is Al-Ghafoor, Al-Wadood. Al-Ghafoor–the Forgiving. Al-Wadood, the Loving! So yes, definitely, Loving and Forgiving.

The penaly is death-- You can and will be put to death in these countries for doing such things.

Why do you dance around it?

 

[kliner]

It oughtn’t be some grave insult that I choose not to accept your beliefs just because you typed them out.

I think I answered this above; I believe that this is a misunderstanding.

addendum:
Now that I better realize what you are referring to here, I also think (1, it is a misunderstanding, as stated above) that it is not a great expectation on my part if you “took in” what we “put out.” I never asked you to believe them, but I do ask that you represent them fairly (as we have tried to present them for you). You have consistently neglected very important aspects of our responses in your contrasts of Islam and Christianity. If the tables were turned, I assume that you would expect me to represent what you had told me (and, indeed, I would expect you to be upset with me were I to misrepresent your answer, by e.g. omission of important details, or whatever the case may be) about your faith - as a sign, if nothing else, that I was genuinely curious and wanting to understand what you had to say.

 

[Idontgetit]

I happened to be browsing the forum and clicked on this thread. The reply to the poster’s question really confused me…

Here’s something the apologist said:

I don’t understand (go figure) why you have to go to a priest. And seriously… what happens if you die on the way? God won’t forgive you?

as I understand it needing forgiveness may mean one has made a mistake or has shown weakness. In the Christian faith I was introduced to, that is something one should never ever admit. Not ever.

 

[Reuben_J]

Now tell me–don’t you also believe that people are going to Hell? Or do you think that God puts them there by accident instead of on purpose?

It is of course a violation of the first commandment, that we should have no god before God. It is denial of God’s right over us.

I interjected because I thought the way you answered questions here shows you’re not exactly honest. I shall not say you’re lying but thought that you are evasive in giving candid answers.

You also said you don’t know the penalty for Christians who proselytizing in Saudi Arabia. I don’t believe you don’t know. You seem to be quite knowledgeable about many things.

You were asked what Islam/Quran says about Christians’ fate (paraphrase). You answered it depends. I thought it was dishonest because the Quran is very clear on shirk. And Christians do believe that Jesus is God (as well as human).

About the concept of a just God in Islam perspective. I still maintain that it is subjective. Personally I don’t see a just Allah who would purposely lead some people astray so that they would be sent hell.

 

[c659smith]

as I understand it needing forgiveness may mean one has made a mistake or has shown weakness. In the Christian faith I was introduced to, that is something one should never ever admit. Not ever.

I am confused by your statement, Of course we admit our failings and weaknesses through repenting and confession.

I will even tell others of my failings so they will not have the same pit falls.

I have taken pride and tossed it away and

“oh what a relief it is”

Better than the commercial for Alka Seltzer.

 

[rinnie]

You know sister amy that hmm? My gut in the beginning said this was going to happen, But i gave you the benefit of the doubt. I really thought you wanted to learn about our Religion, I can see now you played us for a fool. But thats okay our hearts are clean. God knows our intentions are good. We never wanted to fight or argue we tried to share the happiness we have. But if you are so happy with your religion why are you even on this Christian sight. You may believe of Jesus but you do not believe IN HIM. Big difference. But thats okay maybe it makes you happy to take what People believe in and Love and Mock it.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

If you’d like, please look above your post and tell me if those are on topic. It was not brought up in the OP, nor is it suggested by the title of this thread. I am merely trying to avoid having to sort through two different topics in one thread. If you want to learn about Islam, start a thread.

Also, I don’t have to be a moderator to want to avoid sorting through irrelevant posts.

Sister Amy:

How do people who aren’t Muslim get to heaven according to Islam? Same way–if God forgives them and admits them. So do non-Muslims get into heaven? Depends on the reason they weren’t Muslim.

Uhmmm…you just quoted evidence that I was pointing to. Forgiveness in Islam and forgiveness in Christianity. She said, “if God forgives them and admits them”. You having to sort through two different topics is not my problem or anyone else’s, only yours. If a mod wants to change something, they would have done it already.

Right now, you are the only one derailing the thread with your complaints.

MW

 

[kliner]

Uhmmm…you just quoted evidence that I was pointing to. Forgiveness in Islam and forgiveness in Christianity. She said, “if God forgives them and admits them”. You having to sort through two different topics is not my problem or anyone else’s, only yours. If a mod wants to change something, they would have done it already.

Right now, you are the only one derailing the thread with your complaints.

MW

Maybe one of the things I quoted were in support of the Muslim view of forgiveness - but look at most of the ones that I quoted and several that were posted after I posted that - they have next to nothing to do with this topic. Many of them are asking of general Islamic belief. And, the purpose of having threads is the ability to focus on one topic, such as “Question about forgiveness reply from apologist,” so again, there is no need for a moderator to use common sense. No one would ever get anywhere with divergent conversations in a single place, not to mention the mess that it makes for people who may come across this thread (via Google, or whatever) to read through it at a later time.

And, one post requesting that we stay on topic is derailing it? And how long ago was it that I posted that now? One bleep on the radar and it’s a “derailing of the thread with complaints.”

I will no longer respond to this on this thread. Feel free to PM me.