Question about forgiveness reply from apologist

[Mystic_Warrior]

Maybe one of the things I quoted were in support of the Muslim view of forgiveness - but look at most of the ones that I quoted and several that were posted after I posted that - they have next to nothing to do with this topic. Many of them are asking of general Islamic belief. And, the purpose of having threads is the ability to focus on one topic, such as “Question about forgiveness reply from apologist,” so again, there is no need for a moderator to use common sense. No one would ever get anywhere with divergent conversations in a single place, not to mention the mess that it makes for people who may come across this thread (via Google, or whatever) to read through it at a later time.

And, one post requesting that we stay on topic is derailing it? And how long ago was it that I posted that now? One bleep on the radar and it’s a “derailing of the thread with complaints.”

I will no longer respond to this on this thread. Feel free to PM me.

Sorry, neither I nor you, nor this thread are that important for me to PM you. Good day.

MW

 

[Sister_Amy]

The penaly is death-- You can and will be put to death in these countries for doing such things.

Why do you dance around it?

The penalty is the same in Jewish Law. It’s not that I mean to dance around it, I just refuse to allow you to direct me in the conversation.

The punishment for adultery in the Old Testament is to be stoned to death. It is the same in Islam. (With four reliable witnesses to prove it… so it has to basically be done in public to get that many witnesses.)

I don’t have a problem with God’s law. Do you? The same law he mandated to the Jews, the same law in existence today? Do you have a problem with it, I want to know?

…I actually believe that when given the option, men will choose the path of tyranny. That they will want to avoid punishment for something so grievous as adultery, so they abolish the penalty for it. The punishment is no different here for men or women, it is the crime which is punished–a crime that is so serious it has such a heavy penalty–death. And that is actually God’s law… yet men are diverted from that path, from that law… and by refusing the punishment for themselves, they allow such a sin to spread in the land.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I interjected because I thought the way you answered questions here shows you’re not exactly honest. I shall not say you’re lying but thought that you are evasive in giving candid answers.

I’m not giving the answers you expect is what you mean, I think.

You also said you don’t know the penalty for Christians who proselytizing in Saudi Arabia. I don’t believe you don’t know. You seem to be quite knowledgeable about many things.

I suppose that’s a compliment–that I seem to be quite knowledgeable about many things. Maybe I am, maybe I’m not. I keep trying to learn. But the laws of Saudi Arabia aren’t exactly my area of study. Moreover, I never had any intention of being a Christian proselytizing in the Magic Kingdom so I don’t see how I should know what the “penalty” is for it. If you happen to have a copy of Saudi Legal Code laying around maybe you can check for me. But I don’t know the answer, so I won’t make one up or guess.

You were asked what Islam/Quran says about Christians’ fate (paraphrase). You answered it depends. I thought it was dishonest because the Quran is very clear on shirk. And Christians do believe that Jesus is God (as well as human).

The Qur’an does not paint all Christians with the same brush. Not all Christians commit shirk. It is quite possible, and I will admit this, that there is a Christian who is more sincere in his worship of only one God than myself as a Muslim–I’m not God, so how would I know? It’s not up to me to judge. That is honesty.

The Qur’an has two ayaat, which I can remember the references for because they’ve been brought up so frequently–2:62 and 5:69. They mention Christians, and also say that there will be no fear on them, and nor will they grieve. Is it talking about Christians today who willfully reject the Prophet Muhammad? Nope! But what about Christians of the past who accepted the message of Jesus (the one I believe in) before Muhammad and tried to worship only God? That is all they had to do then, and they can expect good from their Lord. So the answer absolutely depends. Not all Christians think Jesus is God–not all have, since the time of Jesus, and not all do so today. Some Christians might follow the religion and never hear the religion of Islam so they didn’t know better–how can I say they are condemned to hell when in fact I don’t know? So I told you it depends, because it depends. And that is deeper honesty than whoever told you otherwise.

About the concept of a just God in Islam perspective. I still maintain that it is subjective. Personally I don’t see a just Allah who would purposely lead some people astray so that they would be sent hell.

Those who God “leads astray” are the ones who don’t want to be guided. So rather than guiding them when they don’t want to be guided (which would be force, a violation of free will) God leads them astray.

And some people who are Muslims will even be sent to Hell.

The point is that we are punished for our bad deeds, our insincerity.

In fact I just learned today that the first people who will be sent to hell are those who claimed they were fighting in the cause of Allah (i.e., they were martyrs.) But rather than really fighting for Allah, they were fighting to be called brave. And they are the first going to hell, even though they think they are martyrs, and maybe other people think they are martyrs (i.e., first going to Paradise.)

What I think is unjust would be for one person to pay for the sins of another. In Islam, everyone is accountable for their own deeds.

 

[Sister_Amy]

You know sister amy that hmm? My gut in the beginning said this was going to happen, But i gave you the benefit of the doubt. I really thought you wanted to learn about our Religion, I can see now you played us for a fool. But thats okay our hearts are clean. God knows our intentions are good. We never wanted to fight or argue we tried to share the happiness we have. But if you are so happy with your religion why are you even on this Christian sight. You may believe of Jesus but you do not believe IN HIM. Big difference. But thats okay maybe it makes you happy to take what People believe in and Love and Mock it.

You flatter me–I’m not that clever. I started the thread to ask a question, and it was answered. I don’t accept the answer for my personal beliefs (I’m not Catholic) and didn’t mean to insult anyone. But apparently because I don’t accept it people turned the discussion to Islam instead. I didn’t orchestrate that.

Moreover, I don’t think I have mocked anything here, and have tried to refrain from doing so. Forgive me if I am mistaken.

 

[rinnie]

You flatter me–I’m not that clever. I started the thread to ask a question, and it was answered. I don’t accept the answer for my personal beliefs (I’m not Catholic) and didn’t mean to insult anyone. But apparently because I don’t accept it people turned the discussion to Islam instead. I didn’t orchestrate that.

Moreover, I don’t think I have mocked anything here, and have tried to refrain from doing so. Forgive me if I am mistaken.

My point exactly you had not intentions of accepting any answer we gave you for your own personal beliefs. That part I believe. But i dont believe that you didnt mean to insult me. As a matter of fact I believe that you were waiting for your best time to take your best shot. And you took it. Especially by waiting until the end to tell me you WERE a Christian. You let me go on like you had no idea how important Jesus was. But you know because if you were taught Christian scripture Catholic, Protestant, any Christian Religion you know how important Jesus is to us. And you picked Easter Sunday. But thats okay i will be wiser. But i answered you honest and fair. ITs just a shame you couldnt be the same. But you wont get me again thats for sure.

 

[Sister_Amy]

My point exactly you had not intentions of accepting any answer we gave you for your own personal beliefs. That part I believe. But i dont believe that you didnt mean to insult me. As a matter of fact I believe that you were waiting for your best time to take your best shot. And you took it. Especially by waiting until the end to tell me you WERE a Christian. You let me go on like you had no idea how important Jesus was. But you know because if you were taught Christian scripture Catholic, Protestant, any Christian Religion you know how important Jesus is to us. And you picked Easter Sunday. But thats okay i will be wiser. But i answered you honest and fair. ITs just a shame you couldnt be the same. But you wont get me again thats for sure.

I wasn’t honest? Perhaps I should put my personal biography in my signature. Please, I never meant to personally attack you. I’m not keeping secret the fact I am Muslim–I’ve been on the board for a few weeks now and have made it clear. There should never have been an assumption that I meant to accept any answers to my questions to believe in them. Clearly, my faith diverges on even more fundamental issues outside the scope of this thread.

 

[rinnie]

I wasn’t honest? Perhaps I should put my personal biography in my signature. Please, I never meant to personally attack you. I’m not keeping secret the fact I am Muslim–I’ve been on the board for a few weeks now and have made it clear. There should never have been an assumption that I meant to accept any answers to my questions to believe in them. Clearly, my faith diverges on even more fundamental issues outside the scope of this thread.

No Sister Amy i can see you are Muslim, and you lived up to what we have seen of them. But it wasnt muslim, its that you were Christian, you could have been up front with that. BUt you waited to come in for the kill. Thats okay, I will live the Catholic Faith today and i will forgive. But i will also remember, and be wiser the next time for sure. God Bless you Sister Amy I will sleep well tonight, Peace is in my heart. And you can go on asking questions, but i hope people will learn from my mistakes, Be carefull because the minute you let your guard down shes going in for the kill.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Going in for the kill?

 

[c659smith]

The penalty is the same in Jewish Law. It’s not that I mean to dance around it, I just refuse to allow you to direct me in the conversation.

The punishment for adultery in the Old Testament is to be stoned to death. It is the same in Islam. (With four reliable witnesses to prove it… so it has to basically be done in public to get that many witnesses.)

I don’t have a problem with God’s law. Do you? The same law he mandated to the Jews, the same law in existence today? Do you have a problem with it, I want to know?

…I actually believe that when given the option, men will choose the path of tyranny. That they will want to avoid punishment for something so grievous as adultery, so they abolish the penalty for it. The punishment is no different here for men or women, it is the crime which is punished–a crime that is so serious it has such a heavy penalty–death. And that is actually God’s law… yet men are diverted from that path, from that law… and by refusing the punishment for themselves, they allow such a sin to spread in the land.

And the old law is still followed in these countries.

That is the problem as it exists in Islam today.

That is why these and many other countries like them will always be stuck in the year 5 or 6 hundred.

That is why Islam is a religion of fear rather than of love.

People do not worship Allah freely but do under fear of persecution, pain, and death

There is no road to Allah no matter how many prayers you say, no matter how many conversions you make, no matter how many infidels you kill.

Babylon was a great empire yet stands in ruins today as it will tomorrow.

 

[Sister_Amy]

And the old law is still followed in these countries.

That is the problem as it exists in Islam today.

Actually I think that is the solution–of Islam. Do you think that you have a better law than the one prescribed by God? And I don’t mean just in Islam–the same as in the Old Testament. The Law of Moses.

That is why these and many other countries like them will always be stuck in the year 5 or 6 hundred.

Is God’s Law too old fashioned for you?

That is why Islam is a religion of fear rather than of love.

People do not worship Allah freely but do under fear of persecution, pain, and death.

This isn’t really true, or do you think it is? Do you think that all the Children of Israel didn’t really worship God freely? They only did so out of fear? Muslims actually belief that they should be between hope and fear. Between hope and fear–not only afraid of God, nor only hopeful. The problem when people don’t fear God is that they don’t stick to the law–the law that is in place for their own protection, for the good of mankind. So between fear and hope in God’s mercy. Islam is the religion of moderation… not going to either extreme.

Do people always follow the speed limit? Or do they speed but then slow down when they see a cop? They slow down–the fear of punishment induces them to adhere to the law.

Babylon was a great empire yet stands in ruins today as it will tomorrow.

Didn’t Rome also fall, and it happened to be Christian.

 

[Reuben_J]

I’m not giving the answers you expect is what you mean, I think.

I suppose that’s a compliment–that I seem to be quite knowledgeable about many things. Maybe I am, maybe I’m not. I keep trying to learn. But the laws of Saudi Arabia aren’t exactly my area of study. Moreover, I never had any intention of being a Christian proselytizing in the Magic Kingdom so I don’t see how I should know what the “penalty” is for it. If you happen to have a copy of Saudi Legal Code laying around maybe you can check for me. But I don’t know the answer, so I won’t make one up or guess.

The Qur’an does not paint all Christians with the same brush. Not all Christians commit shirk. It is quite possible, and I will admit this, that there is a Christian who is more sincere in his worship of only one God than myself as a Muslim–I’m not God, so how would I know? It’s not up to me to judge. That is honesty.

The Qur’an has two ayaat, which I can remember the references for because they’ve been brought up so frequently–2:62 and 5:69. They mention Christians, and also say that there will be no fear on them, and nor will they grieve. Is it talking about Christians today who willfully reject the Prophet Muhammad? Nope! But what about Christians of the past who accepted the message of Jesus (the one I believe in) before Muhammad and tried to worship only God? That is all they had to do then, and they can expect good from their Lord. So the answer absolutely depends. Not all Christians think Jesus is God–not all have, since the time of Jesus, and not all do so today. Some Christians might follow the religion and never hear the religion of Islam so they didn’t know better–how can I say they are condemned to hell when in fact I don’t know? So I told you it depends, because it depends. And that is deeper honesty than whoever told you otherwise.

You mentioned that you were once a Christian. What type of Christian were you then?

Those who God “leads astray” are the ones who don’t want to be guided. So rather than guiding them when they don’t want to be guided (which would be force, a violation of free will) God leads them astray.

And some people who are Muslims will even be sent to Hell.

The point is that we are punished for our bad deeds, our insincerity.

In fact I just learned today that the first people who will be sent to hell are those who claimed they were fighting in the cause of Allah (i.e., they were martyrs.) But rather than really fighting for Allah, they were fighting to be called brave. And they are the first going to hell, even though they think they are martyrs, and maybe other people think they are martyrs (i.e., first going to Paradise.)

What I think is unjust would be for one person to pay for the sins of another. In Islam, everyone is accountable for their own deeds.

The bolded part. Is that an insinuaton for Christian belief that Jesus died for our sin?

 

[inJESUS]

Am I impaired today? I don’t understand. No sheikh has been involved in my marriage planning thus far. Although there has been prayer, lots of prayer–prayer for guidance and other things. The sheikh might sign the contract when I get married but that’s pretty much it. I really don’t understand your post at all.

my idea is rather simple…there are roles that God grants to priests or sheikh ecc…these are roles, and in no way do they mean you put someone else above God, or between you and God because it is God who puts His rules.

 

[c659smith]

Actually I think that is the solution–of Islam. Do you think that you have a better law than the one prescribed by God? And I don’t mean just in Islam–the same as in the Old Testament. The Law of Moses.

Is God’s Law too old fashioned for you?

This isn’t really true, or do you think it is? Do you think that all the Children of Israel didn’t really worship God freely? They only did so out of fear? Muslims actually belief that they should be between hope and fear. Between hope and fear–not only afraid of God, nor only hopeful. The problem when people don’t fear God is that they don’t stick to the law–the law that is in place for their own protection, for the good of mankind. So between fear and hope in God’s mercy. Islam is the religion of moderation… not going to either extreme.

Do people always follow the speed limit? Or do they speed but then slow down when they see a cop? They slow down–the fear of punishment induces them to adhere to the law.

Didn’t Rome also fall, and it happened to be Christian.

So then you are claiming to be a fundamentalist in Islam and believe Religious Laws should govern the world. Stoning is a mode of punishment along with decapitations of body parts to include the head.

What is your feeling about the 9-11 terrorists?

Were they justified ?

Are they with Allah now?

Do you believe in Islamic Law such as those in Iran?

Should Israel be destroyed?

Are you glad the Catholic Church turned back the Muslims in the crusades from entering Europe?

P.S.
Rome still stands it is called the vatican today.

O most precious blood of Jesus Christ, our savior and Redeemer, be with us always and save us from satanic attacks.

Through the intercession of the Blessed Mother, the Holy Angels, and saints, please protect us and cover us with your precious Blood.

May Your Glory reign throughout the whole world forever. Amen

Please say after each mystery of the Rosary.

 

[Sister_Amy]

my idea is rather simple…there are roles that God grants to priests or sheikh ecc…these are roles, and in no way do they mean you put someone else above God, or between you and God because it is God who puts His rules.

In Islam, there is not a role of a “sheikh.” For a marriage there has to be two witnesses, and a wali for the bride. No sheikh necessary.

 

[Sister_Amy]

So then you are claiming to be a fundamentalist in Islam and believe Religious Laws should govern the world. Stoning is a mode of punishment along with decapitations of body parts to include the head.

Fundamentalist? Perhaps. I’m not familiar with decapitation (which means beheading only) being an actual punishment in authentic Sunnah but that’s not the point. Other punishments are allowed. Stoning is a punishment in the Old Testament. So it’s your choice to say that God’s law is not valid? Is that what you believe? Anyway, I believe that religious laws should govern the people who follow that religion. Not the whole world.

What is your feeling about the 9-11 terrorists?

They are wicked.

Were they justified ?

Aboslutely not. No way.

Are they with Allah now?

in the Qur’an, killing one innocent person is likened to killing all of mankind. Imagine killing all of mankind 3000 some times over. But truthfully I don’t know what they are experiencing now. You might be interested to read about the life of the grave, in Islam.

Do you believe in Islamic Law such as those in Iran?

I’m not familiar with the law of Iran. I know that Iran is Shi’a though, and I am not Shi’a. I don’t know much at all about Shi’ism. So since I don’t know I can’t say I believe in it or not.

Should Israel be destroyed?

Hm, now that’s a loaded question. I think that the Israelis and the Palestinians should form a JOINT state which is mutually beneficial to both groups, without the oppression or hatred of either. So no, I don’t think Israel should be destroyed. The people who live now in the country called Israel are there. So are the Palestinians. And they both need to learn to get along without either trying to expel the other.

Are you glad the Catholic Church turned back the Muslims in the crusades from entering Europe?

I don’t really care.

P.S.
Rome still stands it is called the vatican today.

That’s embarassing. Google “fall of rome.”

 

[tomshaikh]

Salaam Sister Amy, I have come to read one of your conversation between you and Ruben J

And Ruben J Quotes Of Your saying on post # 111 please see that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Amy
Those who God “leads astray” are the ones who don’t want to be guided. So rather than guiding them when they don’t want to be guided (which would be force, a violation of free will) God leads them astray.

And some people who are Muslims will even be sent to Hell.

The point is that we are punished for our bad deeds, our insincerity.

In fact I just learned today that the first people who will be sent to hell are those who claimed they were fighting in the cause of Allah (i.e., they were martyrs.) But rather than really fighting for Allah, they were fighting to be called brave. And they are the first going to hell, even though they think they are martyrs, and maybe other people think they are martyrs (i.e., first going to Paradise.)

What I think is unjust would be for one person to pay for the sins of another. In Islam, everyone is accountable for their own deeds.

---

Is somebody quoting you wrong check post # 111 in this thread

 

[c659smith]

Fundamentalist? Perhaps. I’m not familiar with decapitation (which means beheading only) being an actual punishment in authentic Sunnah but that’s not the point. Other punishments are allowed. Stoning is a punishment in the Old Testament. So it’s your choice to say that God’s law is not valid? Is that what you believe? Anyway, I believe that religious laws should govern the people who follow that religion. Not the whole world.

They are wicked.

Aboslutely not. No way.

in the Qur’an, killing one innocent person is likened to killing all of mankind. Imagine killing all of mankind 3000 some times over. But truthfully I don’t know what they are experiencing now. You might be interested to read about the life of the grave, in Islam.

I’m not familiar with the law of Iran. I know that Iran is Shi’a though, and I am not Shi’a. I don’t know much at all about Shi’ism. So since I don’t know I can’t say I believe in it or not.

Hm, now that’s a loaded question. I think that the Israelis and the Palestinians should form a JOINT state which is mutually beneficial to both groups, without the oppression or hatred of either. So no, I don’t think Israel should be destroyed. The people who live now in the country called Israel are there. So are the Palestinians. And they both need to learn to get along without either trying to expel the other.

I don’t really care.

That’s embarassing. Google “fall of rome.”

Thank You for your post to my questions… That took courage on your part. God Bless

 

[Reuben_J]

What I think is unjust would be for one person to pay for the sins of another. In Islam, everyone is accountable for their own deeds.

Yet it does not stop Muslims to die for the sins of another in their pursuing of endless Jihad. How ironic! Someone else sin, and your so-called matyrs give their lives I don’t know for what purpose. Thanks God people like you here do not support all this.

 

[Reuben_J]

While Christians, who believe that God took away our sins and iniquities by the death of his Son, do not have what you call Jihad. We don’t give our lives away purposely for a cause like that because Jesus already had died for our sins. You don’t believe in this and maybe that’s the likely reason your people can become suicide martyrs. So is that the just fruit of the teachings of your prophet?

As for your friend whom you are defending, I was just pointing out her insincerity in her replies to questions by Christian posters here. You know pretty well, the issue of Jesus death does not arise at all here in this thread. She just brought it up, one after the other, as if she got an agenda to tell us something.

In fact all her questions here in this thread have been answered by us except that perhaps she did not listen or purposely did not want to listen because when she started this thread she already had in mind what she wanted to do. And by the look of things, that got nothing to do with the topic of the thread that wants to know Christians doctrine on the forgiveness of God.

You can fool some but you cannot fool us all.