Question about Iglesia Ni Cristo [Church of Christ]

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Re: Godhood of Jesus stated directly in Scripture

Has this one been mentioned yet?

[sup]1[/sup] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.…[sup]14[/sup] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. [Gospel of John]

The Word = God
The Word → flesh (Jesus)

Therefore, God → flesh (Jesus)

I don’t think you can get any more straightforward than that. 🤷
Let me ask you this, is the term “WORD” in John 1:1 is also God’s Word?

One of your religious trinitarian companion said YES, do you agree?
 
Let me ask you this, is the term “WORD” in John 1:1 is also God’s Word?

One of your religious trinitarian companion said YES, do you agree?
I’m not sure I understand your question. :confused:
 
Again and again, history is against your notion. History tells us that JESUS DEITY’s crept in the church ONLY in 110AD through the instrumentality of bishop Ignatius, after the NT scriptures. That is a factual evidence that is hard to ignore.
If “divinity” for the Catholics means JESUS IS GOD then the Heretics are but correct to attack it cause it existed outside the perimeter of the scriptures. But John never wrote JESUS IS GOD, Divine perhaps…but NOT GOD.
You don’t know the teaching of the heretics of the early centuries and yet you are defending them. So Cerenthius and Ebion were right then, to oppose the gospel of St. John and the Apostolic Church?
 
ETE;4004182:
Let me ask you this, is the term “WORD” in John 1:1 is also God’s Word?

One of your religious trinitarian companion said YES, do you agree?
I’m not sure I understand your question. :confused:
Was the term “WORD” in John 1:1 means the “Word” of God?

One of the trinitarian poster said YES…do you have the same understanding with him?
 
Again and again, history is against your notion. History tells us that JESUS DEITY’s crept in the church ONLY in 110AD through the instrumentality of bishop Ignatius, after the NT scriptures. That is a factual evidence that is hard to ignore.
If “divinity” for the Catholics means JESUS IS GOD then the Heretics are but correct to attack it cause it existed outside the perimeter of the scriptures. But John never wrote JESUS IS GOD, Divine perhaps…but NOT GOD.
You don’t know the teaching of the heretics of the early centuries and yet you are defending them. So Cerenthius and Ebion were right then, to oppose the gospel of St. John and the Apostolic Church?
 
Ad hominem will do you no good, but a good refutation and solid evidence will make what you stand for acceptable and believable.

In addition, #2, #8, #9 did not refute that you are an IDOL/IMAGE WORSHIPER my friend.

**CATHECHISM OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE **
No. 3 in conformity with the decrees of the Plenary Council and the code of 1918.
Nihil obstat: A.G Casas, Censor Librorum, Imprimatur: Rufino J. Santos, D.D., Archbishop of Manila. De La Salle College. Brothers of the Christian Schools, Manila Philippines, 1955.

p.13
13. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?

No; it extends also to their relics and images”

“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.”
Again what you have proven is your ability to read out of context. You assumed too much. Why don’t you post #'s 2, 8 and 9 of the document you presented and then explain to us how it is used to #'s 13 and 15? You probably haven’t heard of iconoclasm.
What is out of context on this question and answer portion?

*13. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?

No; it extends also to their relics and images”

**“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.”***

And what does #s,8 and 9 has something to do with it? Did #13 and #15 says something about #8- and #9 when they gave instructions that Catholics should and must be IDOL/IMAGE WORSHIPERS?

Those are pretty basic straight forward question and answer segments…my friend.

If you have something to explain out of that context, then explain.

But whoever will receive that Catechism instruction will surely understand that they need to worship images, or to become idol worshiper…not to mentioned, even their relics must be worshiped like, their tombs, toothbrush, false teeth, underwear, shirts, pants,
and whatever touches their body must be worship based on your doctrine [read #14] and if you DO NOT obey, then you are a heretic based on the Catholic doctrine.

*13. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?

No; it extends also to their relics and images”*

But the bottom line is, to whom and where does those teachings came from? For sure Jesus and his Apostles did not teach that…don’t you think you have mistakenly presumed that the savage wolves and the false teachers did not remain in the Church and lead the Church members into APOSTASY or the falling away from the true faith preached by Jesus and his Apostles whereas their teachings are well manifested and reigning in the church built by Christ?

You people who are reading this have lots of thinking to do, cause your salvation is at stake.
 
I’ve read Christian history books, The question is, have you have you read Christian history aside from the misquotes fed by your ministers?
If you really read the “INQUISITION”, whose crime is it?

Individual members?

Or

the Papacy that represents the Catholic church?
 
ETE;4004911:
Again and again, history is against your notion. History tells us that JESUS DEITY’s crept in the church ONLY in 110AD through the instrumentality of bishop Ignatius, after the NT scriptures. That is a factual evidence that is hard to ignore.

If “divinity” for the Catholics means JESUS IS GOD then the Heretics are but correct to attack it cause it existed outside the perimeter of the scriptures. But John never wrote JESUS IS GOD, Divine perhaps…but NOT GOD.
This only proves that you haven’t read any good christian history book, but what you know of it is what was fed to you by your ministers. **You don’t know the teaching of the heretics of the early centuries and yet you are defending them. **So Cerenthius and Ebion were right then, to oppose the gospel of St. John and the Apostolic Church?
Mine is biblical and historical facts, yours is what? Full of presumption that has nothing to prove, show us something that your really knows the history of Christianity, or else readers will think you are bluffing…you don’t wnat that to happen, do you?
 
Yes we do cause it is not in the scriptures.
So you are a proponent of Sola Scriptura?

Can you offer a decent defense of how one can justify the isolation of the written tradition from the living tradition which wrote, codified and canonized the sacred scriptures?
 
So you are a proponent of Sola Scriptura?
We believe that the bible alone is the basis of salvation.
Can you offer a decent defense of how one can justify the isolation of the written tradition from the living tradition which wrote, codified and canonized the sacred scriptures?
If “tradition” is concern, then it must be in uniformity of what was taught by Jesus and the Apostles, since they spread the gospel verbally, therefore tradition exist, but it must be based on what was taught to the Christians…if NOT, then that tradition is tinted by the false teachers.

Since we have the books that will tell us the faith of the early Christians, then we have something to compare against “tradition”, and if that tradition came from Jesus and his Apostles or came from the one they prophesied that is coming…the savage wolves and the false teachers…

Acts 20:29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

2 Peter 2:1 False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way false teachers will appear among you. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction.

This is the logic of what Apostle Paul and Apostle Peter wrote against the so called “tradition”. The “false teachers” is without any doubt will appear, But what they will bring? the scripture says: “destructive untrue doctrines”…Now, if what was introduced by these savage wolves became a tradition of the church as time goes by and after the death of the Apostles, then FALSE tradition based on “UNTRUE DOCTRINES” will reign and no one can stop them since the old guards of the Church was long gone…“I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you,…”

How could we know if the tradition that passed through generations is not what Jesus and the Apostles preached, instead what the savage wolves and false teachers preaches? The answer is so simple…the doctrines is not in unison with the scriptures,

And if NOT and in contradiction with the scriptures, then tradition that reigned and follows by the Christians is based on what the false teachers brought in the Church as forewarned by Jesus and the Apostles.

Many argued, savage wolves were kick out of the church since the beginning…but what they do not know is, it is not the people that is needed to kick out, it is the “destructive untrue doctrines” that will destroy the church built by Christ that needs to be demolished…and that is the only way for the church to claim that NO APOSTASY or FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH ever happened in the church built by Christ.

Unfortunately…we have historical books that proves that the Church doctrines is not the same with the original that was received by the first century Christians.

If not the same, then whose teachings are those, if not of Christ and the Apostles? Historical “tradition” identified it to us, it was formulated and invented by the Church Superiors after the death of the Apostles…notably, the deity of Jesus through the letters of bishop Ignatius of Antioch dated 110AD…meaning, Chritians starts believing Jesus is God after 110AD or the early second century…and the Apostles died before 70AD…except John who was in exile in the Island of Patmos.

SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. Augustus Hopkins String, D.D. Three Volumes in One, Philadelphia. The Judson Press Chicago. Kansas City, Los Angeles, Seattle. Copyright by Augustus Hopkins Strong. 1907

p. 305
“The earliest time known at which Jesus was deified was after the New Testament writers. In The letters of Ignatius, at the beginning of the second century.”
 
What is out of context on this question and answer portion?

13. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?

No; it extends also to their relics and images”

“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.”


And what does #s,8 and 9 has something to do with it? Did #13 and #15 says something about #8- and #9 when they gave instructions that Catholics should and must be IDOL/IMAGE WORSHIPERS?

Those are pretty basic straight forward question and answer segments…my friend.

If you have something to explain out of that context, then explain.
ETE, the author explained the different level of what worship is according to the teaching of the church before he went to questions 13 and 15.

**4.How is worship divided?**Worship is divided into:1 Public and private worship;2 Direct and indirect worship.

8. **What is direct worship?**Direct worship is that which we render to God in Himself.

9. **What is indirect worship?**Indirect worship is that which is render to God in His saints.Indirect worship is what we call veneration, honor given to the saints of God. So when he said that we “worship saints” he meant we venerate the saints, we honor the saints.
This is also called Dulia.
Direct worship is due to God alone and we call this Latria. We don’t apply this kind of worship to the saints, and we no better not to confuse the saints from our God…
****But whoever will receive that Catechism instruction will surely understand that they need to worship images, or to become idol worshiper…not to mentioned, even their relics must be worshiped like, their tombs, toothbrush, false teeth, underwear, shirts, pants, ****
and whatever touches their body must be worship based on your doctrine [read #14] and if you DO NOT obey, then you are a heretic based on the Catholic doctrine.

13. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?

No; it extends also to their relics and images”
The author is using the word worship in its secondary sense, meaning, to venerate, to honor, (Dulia and NOT Latria).
But the bottom line is, to whom and where does those teachings came from? For sure Jesus and his Apostles did not teach that…don’t you think you have mistakenly presumed that the savage wolves and the false teachers did not remain in the Church and lead the Church members into APOSTASY or the falling away from the true faith preached by Jesus and his Apostles whereas their teachings are well manifested and reigning in the church built by Christ?
You people who are reading this have lots of thinking to do, cause your salvation is at stake.
**
**
As I have said before St . John wrote his Gospel to counter Cerenthius and Ebion, the heretics of his time who were denying the divinity of Jesus. And according to your previous post it is just right for Cerenthius and Ebion to deny the divinity of Jesus. This only shows that you are siding with the heretics of the early church.
 
Mine is biblical and historical facts, yours is what? Full of presumption that has nothing to prove, show us something that your really knows the history of Christianity, or else readers will think you are bluffing…you don’t wnat that to happen, do you?
I am the one who sided with St. John, and according to your previous post you sided with Cerenthius and Ebion. You defended them even though you don’t know their teaching and just like them you denied the divinity of the Lord.
 
Do you have any other proof besides this guy?
“The earliest post-New Testament writers, known as the Apostolic Fathers, continued the development that had emerged in the later New Testament period of calling Jesus God.** Ignatius of Antioch, writing in the second century to the Ephesians, declares, ‘Jesus Christ our God was conceived of Mary’ (Eph 18:2) and, ‘God was now appearing in human form’ (Eph 19:3).”** (Word Become Flesh, pp. 161-162)
 
But the bottom line is, to whom and where does those teachings came from? For sure Jesus and his Apostles did not teach that…don’t you think you have mistakenly presumed that the savage wolves and the false teachers did not remain in the Church and lead the Church members into APOSTASY or the falling away from the true faith preached by Jesus and his Apostles whereas their teachings are well manifested and reigning in the church built by Christ?

You people who are reading this have lots of thinking to do, cause your salvation is at stake.
As I have said before St . John wrote his Gospel to counter Cerenthius and Ebion, the heretics of his time who were denying the divinity of Jesus. And according to your previous post it is just right for Cerenthius and Ebion to deny the divinity of Jesus. This only shows that you are siding with the heretics of the early church.
You did not answer my question…to whom and where does those teachings came from? to be an IMAGE WORSHIPERS? For sure Jesus and his Apostles did not teach that…right?

Did John write the Christians to be an image/idol worshipers?

That is what I want you to prove, because SAVAGE WOLVES and FALSE TEACHERS is no longer a legend…they are real people in the church…and they will bring DESTRUCTIVE UNTRUE DOCTRINES.

Acts 20:29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

2 Peter 2:1 False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way* false teachers will appear among you*. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction.
 
ETE;4006518:
What is out of context on this question and answer portion?
  1. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?
No; it extends also to their relics and images”

“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.”

And what does #s,8 and 9 has something to do with it? Did #13 and #15 says something about #8- and #9 when they gave instructions that Catholics should and must be IDOL/IMAGE WORSHIPERS?

Those are pretty basic straight forward question and answer segments…my friend.

If you have something to explain out of that context, then explain.
ETE, the author explained the different level of what worship is according to the teaching of the church before he went to questions 13 and 15.

**4.How is worship divided?**Worship is divided into:1 Public and private worship;2 Direct and indirect worship.

8. **What is direct worship?**Direct worship is that which we render to God in Himself.

9. **What is indirect worship?**Indirect worship is that which is render to God in His saints.Indirect worship is what we call veneration, honor given to the saints of God. So when he said that we “worship saints” he meant we venerate the saints, we honor the saints.
This is also called Dulia.
Direct worship is due to God alone and we call this Latria. We don’t apply this kind of worship to the saints, and we no better not to confuse the saints from our God…

The author is using the word worship in its secondary sense, meaning, to venerate, to honor, (Dulia and NOT Latria).
But the bottom line is, you are image/idol worshipers, either INDIRECT or DIRECT, or Dulia, Latria or hyperdulia…Catholics WORSHIP IMAGES And that is the bottom line of this discussions.

Let me put it this way the way Catholics understand it.

Example of “INDIRECT WORSHIP”:

If your wife sleeps with another man, but what she is doing is for your honor and veneration though he is on top of another man will not bother you and is acceptable before you right?

The way you worship God but you are kneeling to those idols and images in veneration and honor of God right?

Do you think God will accept that? The way you wife explain the reasons why he is sleeping with another man in honor, respect and to venerate you?

I think you Catholics knows the answer to such question.

Compare these verses…

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness [of anything] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth; You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

To this doctrine…

CATHECHISM OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
No. 3 in conformity with the decrees of the Plenary Council and the code of 1918.
Nihil obstat: A.G Casas, Censor Librorum, Imprimatur: Rufino J. Santos, D.D., Archbishop of Manila. De La Salle College. Brothers of the Christian Schools, Manila Philippines, 1955.

**“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord**, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.”

It is heaven and hell doctrine is it not?
 
Existence is the issue, in the term: I AM was before Abraham.

And not the God’s name “I AM” that was given to Moses in the wilderness…is what he is referring to.

For the Jews, Jesus claiming he is the “Son of God” is a blasphemous declaration…for them the terms means Jesus is equating himself to God, but is it true?

Well we both know that it is false.
So if Jesus pre-existed Abraham, what was his nature then? Obviously his humanity was still inexistent that time.
 
This is a narrative of John about Jesus’ claim of who exactly he is:

John 5:18
18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.
This is tough to ignore and the best Iglesia Ni Cristo, the heretic organization founded by Manalo, can do is rationalize to the point of distorting the true and original intended meaning of the verse.
 
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