Question about marriage

[newbetx]

Thanks again for answers and clarifications.

If you have read some of the previous thread, I can say there has been development since I brought this situation to your attention. Her relationship with her family is not so bad. Her mother is still coming to terms with our relationship, but the rest of the family is more or less on board. I have an understanding with the father as to my intentions with his daughter. He is not as religious as her mother, and understand more about where I am coming from.

At this point, we are exploring our options. I will do my best to comply with her wishes as it pertains to the nature of our relationship. She wants to marry, so we are investigating how we can do that. Part of it is figuring out how we can arrange a ceremony, and how we can make that experience as good as possible. Because of her history with the family priest, it might be best to do this with a different priest.

Nothing is decided yet. We are exploring now, and that was the reason for my questions. We are simultaneously discussing what kind of marriage we can have, but I don’t reallly need any more religious advice on that (except if someone has some practical experience with this kind of marriage). She has read about and knows her religious obligations.

I have not proposed yet, but it is looking very likely that I will do this soon. The plan was to wait for our one year anniversary, but because of how well the relationship is going, it will probably happen before that.

Well, of course you know there is more to a marriage than a ceremony. Even if you do not marry in the Church, I highly recommend going through the engagement education process. See people come to a relationship with expectations of each other. These, over time are either met or (usually) not met. And if not, it causes issues that can end the marriage or make it very uncomfortable. Best to get these things out up front. The pre-cana courses (I think that’s what they are still called) or the engagement encounters are a good way to discover these hidden expectations and clear up any misunderstandings prior to them becoming a big deal.

 

[Persuader]

Well, of course you know there is more to a marriage than a ceremony. Even if you do not marry in the Church, I highly recommend going through the engagement education process. See people come to a relationship with expectations of each other. These, over time are either met or (usually) not met. And if not, it causes issues that can end the marriage or make it very uncomfortable. Best to get these things out up front. The pre-cana courses (I think that’s what they are still called) or the engagement encounters are a good way to discover these hidden expectations and clear up any misunderstandings prior to them becoming a big deal.

Yes, I agree. I am therefore pleased with the fact that we have already had sex. I do not think there are any unresolved issues between us now (although there could be some undiscovered issues). If there was anything, it would have to be this irritating no-sex rule. This is worse for my gf, though, as she isn’t even masturbating! :doh2: Also, her lack of experience makes it harder for her to resist, although I am helping her.

We are both working out a lot, but it is not as tiring as I would like. Also, she is already a curvy girl, and maybe she is getting a little heavy in the thighs and butt from all the training (don’t worry, I haven’t said anything). At least all this training gives us an excuse to give each other full-body massages. The experience ultimately leaves you unfulfilled (I usually excuse myself to the bathroom afterwards), but I find it kind of amusing. She is clearly taking pleasure in something with the excuse that it is not overtly sexual. I cannot help but think: “wouldn’t it be better to just let go and enjoy?”. I have tried to understand the sexual morals of the church, but I’m struggling with making any sense of it. For now, I simply acknowledge that it’s her view, and respect it because of that.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Wise people suggest you know someone for more than a year before discussing marriage. You are still in the getting to know you phase. And sex is the LEAST difficult part of a person to get to know.

I find your need to talk about your sexual intimacy here to be an indication of immaturity. Your comments on her physically… just something is unbalanced about it all.

I really advise you wait till she has more of an education. At least when you get bored and find someone else and leave her she will have a degree so she can support herself.

Why do I say that? Because you are talking all about a wedding and nothing about a marriage. There’s a big difference. And one is forever. Unless you intend to be with her forever, do her the favor and leave her now.

Please. If you care about her at all.

 

[Sarah53]

Is it ok for Catholics and Jewish to date?

 

[newbetx]

Is it ok for Catholics and Jewish to date?

Welcome to CAF!
Technically, you should open your own thread for this question. you will get a much larger response.

Go here. Click on new thread button. Post your question as the title, add some information in your first post and converse.

 

[Persuader]

Wise people suggest you know someone for more than a year before discussing marriage. You are still in the getting to know you phase. And sex is the LEAST difficult part of a person to get to know.

I find your need to talk about your sexual intimacy here to be an indication of immaturity. Your comments on her physically… just something is unbalanced about it all.

I really advise you wait till she has more of an education. At least when you get bored and find someone else and leave her she will have a degree so she can support herself.

Why do I say that? Because you are talking all about a wedding and nothing about a marriage. There’s a big difference. And one is forever. Unless you intend to be with her forever, do her the favor and leave her now.

Please. If you care about her at all.

Yes, we wouldn’t get married if it wasn’t for her beliefs. We would wait. As I said, lack of sex is really the only “problem” or irritation in the relationship. Why is it immature to mention this? Maybe it is a cultural thing.

Exercise is a way to relieve sexual desire, but it isn’t entirely successful. I am open to ideas.

I don’t see waiting as an option anymore. We will probably marry in a couple of months (that means we have known each other for more than a year). If sex was on the table, it would be easier to wait. It isn’t exactly difficult to understand why these Christian couples marry early. She will complete her education anyway, and we will wait with children until we are finished. If we make a mistake and get pregnant, it isn’t as big of a problem as in the states. The government has been encouraging students to get pregnant because they are worried that females have kids too late. That means that you can take as many classes as you can handle. Also, you get financial compensation and free daycare/kindergarten if you like.

I don’t understand what you are saying about never talking about marriage. Is it because I haven’t asked for advice on it on this forum? Trust me, I have been discussing marriage ad nauseam. I do intend to stay married to her. I know what marriage means to her, and it would be cruel to marry her without this intention.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I think you need to understand that in marriage there are periods where you CAN’T have sex. (During a difficult pregnancy, job separations, illness…) You need to prove to her that you are not so driven by your sexual urges that you would be untrustworthy if something came along that made you have to have extended continence during your marriage. And she needs to prove that self control to you.

If all you have is the sexual drive, that is NOT enough to go the distance.

When I say you’re not talking about marriage… you are talking about the rules governing a wedding day, but you don’t discuss anything about what comes after that.

And for the record, I knew my xh 18 months before we had a wedding. And it crashed and burned. He maintained a facade that long. It was starting to crack, but we had the wedding before the whole dismal picture emerged. Just a word to the wise…

 

[Persuader]

I think you need to understand that in marriage there are periods where you CAN’T have sex. (During a difficult pregnancy, job separations, illness…) You need to prove to her that you are not so driven by your sexual urges that you would be untrustworthy if something came along that made you have to have extended continence during your marriage. And she needs to prove that self control to you.

If all you have is the sexual drive, that is NOT enough to go the distance.

When I say you’re not talking about marriage… you are talking about the rules governing a wedding day, but you don’t discuss anything about what comes after that.

And for the record, I knew my xh 18 months before we had a wedding. And it crashed and burned. He maintained a facade that long. It was starting to crack, but we had the wedding before the whole dismal picture emerged. Just a word to the wise…

Yes, I do understand that there are periods without sex. I can handle this better than my gf. As you know, I am her first, and she is not used to having sex with someone only for it to stop without there being any physical reason.

Dealing with the temptation of other girls is something I have not faltered in before. In my other monogamous relationship, I managed it. Some guys are cheater’s, some are not. I think it has something to do with respect for other people…

I discuss marriage with people who know me better. This forum is more for the religious/catholic questions since I do not have any catholic friends besides my gf. We are also conversing with a priest now.

I am sorry for your bad experience, but I do not think I am like your xh. We humans have many different facades. One of the best things with a proper relationship, is that it lets you drop the facades. If you cannot be yourself in a relationship, it is not worth much.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Good luck with the priest. Just be honest. Only time will tell if your “love” is the real thing. And be open to the idea that God may have brought her into your life to bring you to HIM.

Some of the world’s greatest Catholics were once pagans and atheists who began to direct their intellect on the Source of ALL Intellect. Maybe you are one of those. If you ever decide to convert, let us know. I’ll be the first to congratulate you.

 

[garyr]

. . . We don’t need to be married in the church as far as I am concerned, ,but my gf wants it . . . . . . I will do my best to comply with her wishes as it pertains to the nature of our relationship . . . .
. . . .We are simultaneously discussing what kind of marriage we can have, but I don’t reallly need any more religious advice on that (except if someone has some practical experience with this kind of marriage). She has read about and knows her religious obligations.
. . .

The MAN is called to be the Spiritual Leader in a christian marriage- how do you intend to fulfill this role; both now AND x-years later when SHE finally realizes this ?

That same joy (her happiness - that you recognized in her that comes to her from God) will only extend into your marriage - as both of you become closer to God.

It seems that she’s convinced herself that she can ‘fix’ you - even though you have not said this outright, all her actions seem to indicate so (wanting a Catholic marriage, going back to being chaste before marriage, etc). Looks like you both have lots to talk about (learn more about what is called for in living a christian marriage) unless you have already decided to plunder forth cluelessly . . . .

 

[beckers]

Yes, we wouldn’t get married if it wasn’t for her beliefs. We would wait. As I said, lack of sex is really the only “problem” or irritation in the relationship. Why is it immature to mention this? Maybe it is a cultural thing.

Exercise is a way to relieve sexual desire, but it isn’t entirely successful. I am open to ideas.

I don’t see waiting as an option anymore. We will probably marry in a couple of months (that means we have known each other for more than a year). If sex was on the table, it would be easier to wait. It isn’t exactly difficult to understand why these Christian couples marry early. She will complete her education anyway, and we will wait with children until we are finished. If we make a mistake and get pregnant, it isn’t as big of a problem as in the states. The government has been encouraging students to get pregnant because they are worried that females have kids too late. That means that you can take as many classes as you can handle. Also, you get financial compensation and free daycare/kindergarten if you like.

I don’t understand what you are saying about never talking about marriage. Is it because I haven’t asked for advice on it on this forum? Trust me, I have been discussing marriage ad nauseam. I do intend to stay married to her. I know what marriage means to her, and it would be cruel to marry her without this intention.

Maybe because you only talk about sex. Just when it sounds like you might have seen somewhat of a light you open you mouth and insert foot. Look at your comments…you wouldn’t be rushing into marriage if she would have sex with you. So the only reason you want to get married to her so quickly is so that you can have sex with her so that your physical and sexual needs can be met. That is horrible. It makes her seem like a high priced lady of the night. I am so glad i am not you GF or her family to have to feel their pain and heartache to hear and see their daughter treat in such a substandard way…

Your comments about your girlfriend and how hard it is for her to not have sex and you can’t beleive that she doesn’t masturbate are not shocking because of any cultural difference. They are inflaming people because they are reducing your girlfriend to nothing but a sexual being. Someone who is controlled only by their hormones and nothing else. You don’t talk about her emotional needs nor her spiritual needs which are just as important as ones physical needs. You really really don’t have a clue about how women are wired. Not a clue. You think you know and act like a know it all but we can all see through it.From your GF discription and your own words we can see that she is lost. You like a man in general want to fix things but you can’t. You think marriage will solve all the problems and that you can go off and have sex anytime, and that her family issues will be over and that all the things in life will fall into place once she is married to you. It doesn’t work that way. She will still have this feeling of being lost and that a piece of her is missing. Until the emotional and spiritual needs are brought into balance then her physical needs will never be fully satsified. She can keep running and move foward in her life but until she takes a step back and takes time to understand who she is then she will continue down this path and will continue to feel lost and not in control. She will wake up one day and go “What/where has my life gone.” I hope it is sooner than later so that it saves you a lot of heart ache.

If you don’t believe me, then ask us. I bet most of the women on this board can talk about the early 20’s and how much they changed as women and how what they wanted in a mate changed as they got to know themselves. It takes time for a women to transform from being only seeing herself as a “girl” into a “young women” and into a “mature women”. Its is also going to be a transation from being a “daughter” into a “wife” and then a “mother”.

P.S. I know you don’t ask us about marriage but you should. A lot of people can give you good advice if you ask and show some humilty that you don’t know it all. I learn stuff here all the time. As someone who is discern getting engaged myself it doesn’t seem you understand what the dating, engaged and marriage relationship is all about. Its not about having fun and getting to have sex all the time. That reduce us to nothing but animals. We are better than that. I would suggest you read the catchesim on the churches views on marriage. Its not long but very deep even for those who don’t believe in God. It shows why marriage is deeper than our physical nature. Believe me i read it and was blown away! It makes me understand the committment to each other in a different way then even i a catholic thought it was suppose to be. Good stuff.

 

[newbetx]

Trust me, I have been discussing marriage ad nauseam. I do intend to stay married to her. I know what marriage means to her, and it would be cruel to marry her without this intention.

Well OK then. For some audio about marriage from the Catholic perspective, I offer this:

The Four Goods of Marriage.

I’m sure your girlfriend would be interested as well. Let me know what you think.

 

[Persuader]

You mention a lot of things. Let me try to give some of the most objective opinions I can give on my relationship. My ability to express myself is a bit limited in English, so bear with me:

We have discussed how we will raise children, and how we can organize our lives given her religious convictions. There is a lot of things. As I have said earlier, we have compromised on practically every important issue (that we can think of). We have relayed our compromises to the priest, and he found them reasonable and consistent with the idea that she is supposed to bring our children up in the catholic faith.

She is the one who proposed marriage, and I have slowly been agreeing. That does not mean that I have strong doubts about whether or not we should marry, but it is culturally expected and preferred that we wait. If we were both non-believers, we would wait, but that is because that relationship would have all the parts. There is a psychological theory of love that mentions three parts. They are: intimacy, passion and commitment. The goal is to have all those things, but that is difficult when physical intimacy is inhibited by this no-sex rule. Also, her view of commitment means that she will not be satisfied that I am committed until we are married. Thus our relationship is restricted and lacking in some ways, but we do not want that. We want it to be the best it can be. The solution is marriage.

I will admit that we are not the most patient people. It is not impossible to wait. However, when we explore reasons for waiting , we do not find many serious reasons. But when we explore reasons for action, we find many serious reasons. This was not the case some weeks ago when we had not compromised and agreed on all these things. The fact that we can handle all these differences gives me great hope for our ability to deal with unexpected problems further down the road.

I imagine/speculate that we are very right for each other in some basic ways, but we have had different childhoods. We were taught different things, and this makes us believe differently. However, we think in similar ways, and are therefore able to understand each other well. Let me give an example. She is able to understand my reasoning, and thereby able to understand my reasons for believing the way I do. She has admitted that she was a bit surprised that my reasons for being an atheist were good. When she then lost her spirituality, it was not surprising that she turned to atheism. In retrospect, we can say that this has helped her understand and accept my position. When she couldn’t feel God’s presence, she didn’t believe, and since I do not feel God’s presence, she doesn’t expect me to believe. Therefore she is not angry or upset with me, only a bit worried for me.

My aunt, who is a psychologist, have made me aware of the term “limerence”, which talks about aspects of romantic love. For instance, even though I am aware of my gfs weaknesses, I have difficulty seeing them as anything but endearing. She is, for instance, short-tempered and kind of confrontational. This makes her seem fiery and strong, and I have difficulty seeing anything negative about it. Furthermore, limerence increases if obstacles are externally imposed. This has certainly been the case with people being against our relationship, and this will only make the feelings stronger. My aunt says limerence is involuntary, but it can cease if the relationship is consummated. This is the process we are going through now.

Passionate love usually lasts for ca 2-3 years. This was exactly the case in my previous relationship, which ended in that time-frame. I do think it will last longer with my gf since it is stronger and more powerful in the first place. Hopefully the relationship can retain passion without the obsession. I have earlier provided a link on this: scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=this-is-your-brain-on-love-lasting-2009-01-06

If the relationship cannot retain passion, we will have to deal with it, but there is certain things you can do to retain passion. The audio-link provided gave some useful advice on how to approach marriage. Obviously, I do not agree with the religious claims, but it is certainly important to make sacrifices, and have a proper attitude.

 

[newbetx]

You mention a lot of things. Let me try to give some of the most objective opinions I can give on my relationship. My ability to express myself is a bit limited in English, so bear with me:

We have discussed how we will raise children, and how we can organize our lives given her religious convictions. There is a lot of things. As I have said earlier, we have compromised on practically every important issue (that we can think of). We have relayed our compromises to the priest, and he found them reasonable and consistent with the idea that she is supposed to bring our children up in the catholic faith.

She is the one who proposed marriage, and I have slowly been agreeing. That does not mean that I have strong doubts about whether or not we should marry, but it is culturally expected and preferred that we wait. If we were both non-believers, we would wait, but that is because that relationship would have all the parts. There is a psychological theory of love that mentions three parts. They are: intimacy, passion and commitment. The goal is to have all those things, but that is difficult when physical intimacy is inhibited by this no-sex rule. Also, her view of commitment means that she will not be satisfied that I am committed until we are married. Thus our relationship is restricted and lacking in some ways, but we do not want that. We want it to be the best it can be. The solution is marriage.

I will admit that we are not the most patient people. It is not impossible to wait. However, when we explore reasons for waiting , we do not find many serious reasons. But when we explore reasons for action, we find many serious reasons. This was not the case some weeks ago when we had not compromised and agreed on all these things. The fact that we can handle all these differences gives me great hope for our ability to deal with unexpected problems further down the road.

I imagine/speculate that we are very right for each other in some basic ways, but we have had different childhoods. We were taught different things, and this makes us believe differently. However, we think in similar ways, and are therefore able to understand each other well. Let me give an example. She is able to understand my reasoning, and thereby able to understand my reasons for believing the way I do. She has admitted that she was a bit surprised that my reasons for being an atheist were good. When she then lost her spirituality, it was not surprising that she turned to atheism. In retrospect, we can say that this has helped her understand and accept my position. When she couldn’t feel God’s presence, she didn’t believe, and since I do not feel God’s presence, she doesn’t expect me to believe. Therefore she is not angry or upset with me, only a bit worried for me.

My aunt, who is a psychologist, have made me aware of the term “limerence”, which talks about aspects of romantic love. For instance, even though I am aware of my gfs weaknesses, I have difficulty seeing them as anything but endearing. She is, for instance, short-tempered and kind of confrontational. This makes her seem fiery and strong, and I have difficulty seeing anything negative about it. Furthermore, limerence increases if obstacles are externally imposed. This has certainly been the case with people being against our relationship, and this will only make the feelings stronger. My aunt says limerence is involuntary, but it can cease if the relationship is consummated. This is the process we are going through now.

Passionate love usually lasts for ca 2-3 years. This was exactly the case in my previous relationship, which ended in that time-frame. I do think it will last longer with my gf since it is stronger and more powerful in the first place. Hopefully the relationship can retain passion without the obsession. I have earlier provided a link on this: scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=this-is-your-brain-on-love-lasting-2009-01-06

If the relationship cannot retain passion, we will have to deal with it, but there is certain things you can do to retain passion. The audio-link provided gave some useful advice on how to approach marriage. Obviously, I do not agree with the religious claims, but it is certainly important to make sacrifices, and have a proper attitude.

You are missing a few points about relationships. They are:
Intimacy is not sex.
Intimacy is not sex.
and…
Intimacy is not sex.

If you were referencing my link, I’d like to know what your gf thought about it, too.

And I did ask some questions about the article you referenced in the original thread but you didn’t respond that I can remember.

 

[flyingfish]

You are missing a few points about relationships. They are:
Intimacy is not sex.
Intimacy is not sex.
and…
Intimacy is not sex.

If you were referencing my link, I’d like to know what your gf thought about it, too.

And I did ask some questions about the article you referenced in the original thread but you didn’t respond that I can remember.

Seeing how upset men get when their wives either refuse sex altogether or have it regularly, I’d say that sex is pretty essential, although not everything that’s required.

 

[that_name]

Seeing how upset men get when their wives either refuse sex altogether or have it regularly, I’d say that sex is pretty essential, although not everything that’s required.

Pick up a copy of Matthew Kelly’s “The Seven Levels Of Intimacy”.

 

[flyingfish]

Pick up a copy of Matthew Kelly’s “The Seven Levels Of Intimacy”.

It would help if you could list the 7 levels, and how he argues that sex is not essential to intimacy.

 

[that_name]

It would help if you could list the 7 levels, and how he argues that sex is not essential to intimacy.

I loaned my copy of the book to a friend.

Sex is not imtimacy. Sex can be part of intimacy, however, it is not essential. I have many intimate, non-sexual relationships.

I have an intimate relationship with my son, with my mother, with my siblings, with my close friends, with my confessor.

Sex is not required for a valid marriage. Josephite marriages are perfectly valid.

If my husband were paralyzed tonight on his way home from the store, our relationship would be no less intimate because we could no longer have sex.

It is a secular idea that sex is the pinnacle of intimacy.

ETA - one can also have sex all day long with dozens of people and never have an intimate relationship with those partners.

 

[that_name]

It would help if you could list the 7 levels, and how he argues that sex is not essential to intimacy.

There is a limited preview here:

books.google.com/books?id=OFt5tPKFrrYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=seven+levels+of+intimacy&ei=pVRWS8-QJoHeyASGxbSvCw&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

[flyingfish]

I loaned my copy of the book to a friend.

Sex is not imtimacy. Sex can be part of intimacy, however, it is not essential. I have many intimate, non-sexual relationships.

I have an intimate relationship with my son, with my mother, with my siblings, with my close friends, with my confessor.

Sex is not required for a valid marriage. Josephite marriages are perfectly valid.

If my husband were paralyzed tonight on his way home from the store, our relationship would be no less intimate because we could no longer have sex.

It is a secular idea that sex is the pinnacle of intimacy.

ETA - one can also have sex all day long with dozens of people and never have an intimate relationship with those partners.

Is the intimacy you have with your so, mother, close friends and so on anywhere near what you have with your husband?

I’m not saying sex is intimacy, or that sex is all you need for intimacy, I do think some kind of a sexual relationship is pretty necessary.

The example of a spouse becoming paralyzed is tragic, and personally I really do think the level of intimacy would decrease and not just because of sex, someone that sick is just not a full person anymore, and you can’t have as good a relationship with them as you did when they were healthy.

Josephite marriages may be valid, but frankly to me they sound extremely weird and unnatural. If you’re going to live like a nun/monk, why not just become a nun/monk. What exactly is the point of getting married?