Question: are women to blame for being raped if they were wearing revealing clothing according to teaching?

[PetersKeys]

21st century tells me that we are not just equal, but bars and lounges are not just for men.You talk as an old colloquial judge, and both Adam and Eve sinned not just one do not blame her, because Adam was with God before her and knew more and knew God and named the animals etc. Eve was only weaker in body strength not mind, and woman are stronger to have children, men would never make it.,Adam was the weaker one because he should have been the boss right? and told her put that down it is not right to go against God but he all knowing, decided to go right ahead because of want, wanting to know more, have more, become more, just as they are today.No one should be blamed for anothers sin. I am having a hard enough time trying to understand why the whole world still suffers for this but i guess it is because we are not perfect yet and once we are then no more sin, or blame.

*“Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die.” (Sirach 25:24)
*

And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. - 1 Timothy 2:14

*But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. - 2 Corinthians 11:3
*

You notice how Paul omits Adam in both those verses?

Also, Adam HEARKENED unto his wife. Meaning he took his wife’s direction out of conjugal love. And because of this Adam was put in authority over Eve(Genesis 3:16) since Eve was second in the transgression(Satan first), and Adam, last.

Adam and Eve both sinned. But it was Eve who was the deceived one, as God(not you) clearly states in scripture. I can also give you many ECF quotes too…take your egalitarian garbage elsewhere…I don’t care what the 21st century says, I care what God says…The 21st century egalitarian, 50% divorce rate, view of men and women has done an ENORMOUS amount of damage to marriage

 

[centurionguard]

I find that much that is said in this thread tries to lays unfair bias blame on women.
And worst of all blaming women for Rape. Unless any person here on these entire boards has gone through the suffering the life-long aftermath and struggle of being an actual victim of rape torture. How do they know how it feels to have your soul thrown in a sewer?
Psychiatrists and psychologists might boast they know all their is to know about how the stigma of rape affects the human psyche. However; none including priests and spiritual advisers will ever know the full scope about how rape affects the human soul.

To lay blame against any woman, child or man who becomes a victim of rape, incest or sexual abuse is very unbecoming of any Christian, preposterous and only adds further insult to the great stigma rape victims endure in their lifetime.

This thread deals exclusively with the blame of women who are victims of rape as if justifying inordinate actions of a victimized women was the cause of their rape. I being a man would surely think that women deserve far more dignity than being judged and categorized unfairly by bias individuals. Something is inherently wrong in this thread.
It is so easy to sit back and judge.

I would invite anyone here to take some serious time to read the following links on

The Dignity of Women

newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html

faithleap.org/dignity_of_women.htm#Both%20man%20and%20woman%20are%20human%20beings%20to%20an%20equal%20degree

 

[PatriceA]

I find that much that is said in this thread tries to lays unfair bias blame on women.
And worst of all blaming women for Rape. Unless any person here on these entire boards has gone through the suffering the life-long aftermath and struggle of being an actual victim of rape torture. How do they know how it feels to have your soul thrown in a sewer?
Psychiatrists and psychologists might boast they know all their is to know about how the stigma of rape affects the human psyche. However; none including priests and spiritual advisers will ever know the full scope about how rape affects the human soul.

To lay blame against any woman, child or man who becomes a victim of rape, incest or sexual abuse is very unbecoming of any Christian, preposterous and only adds further insult to the great stigma rape victims endure in their lifetime.

This thread deals exclusively with the blame of women who are victims of rape as if justifying inordinate actions of a victimized women was the cause of their rape. I being a man would surely think that women deserve far more dignity than being judged and categorized unfairly by bias individuals. Something is inherently wrong in this thread.
It is so easy to sit back and judge.

I would invite anyone here to take some serious time to read the following links on

The Dignity of Women

newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html

faithleap.org/dignity_of_women.htm#Both%20man%20and%20woman%20are%20human%20beings%20to%20an%20equal%20degree

Its very, very, very easy to judge when you do not know a victim of any sexual abuse personally or are not one yourself. Its easy to judge because then it somehow takes away the fear that one will never be a victim, that it happens to other people because of the way they dress, the places they go, the people they now. Its easy to build a cocoon and sit in it and lull yourself into some kind of false sense of security. But then someone you know in your safe world becomes a victim, or you yourself are the victim of a sexual crime. Then you realize just how wrong you were about other victims of a sexual crime and the misguided blame you placed on the victim because you never, never thought it would happen to you or someone you loved.

 

[manualman]

If a well dressed man with a Rolex watch, diamond cuff links and an Armani suit makes a wrong turn during a walk and ends up in a rough area is it HIS fault if somebody mugs him?

Duh! Of course not. But it still isn’t smart to look loaded in a desperate part of town. It doesn’t remotely transfer the guilt to the victim from the mugger though. Same for rape and clothing choices. I went to the U of Wisconsin (Midwest party school #1) and saw a LOT of women get drunk at parties and bars that were dressed in revealing outfits. Campus statistics told the tale: 1in 4 was a victim of “date rape.” Was it their fault? No way. But ladies, you protect yourself better if you stay sober and dress to draw attention to your person rather than just your body.

It’s true that rape is about power, not sexual desire. But specifically, it is often about sexual power. Sad, but true, but there are an awful lot of frustrated men out there who are tempted to make themselves feel more powerful by taking it out on someone (or a type of someone) who previously made them feel weak and/or frustrated. A depraved, narcisistic and frustrated man who feels taunted by a scantily clad woman of the kind he desires and is constantly denied is as vulnerable to temptation as a weak, unemployed homeless guy who sees a rich guy with a fat wallet walk past his dumpster in a dark neighborhood. Most people are decent enough that this is not even a temptation. Many people experience the temptation and recognize it as evil and refrain. A not so few decide they don’t care about anyone but themselves and take what they want.

In neither case does the perpetrator have any LESS guilt for his crime. But in both cases, the victim could do more next time to avoid being victimized.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

…
In neither case does the perpetrator have any LESS guilt for his crime. But in both cases, the victim could do more next time to avoid being victimized.

Brutal.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

no, you just not wanting to deal with reality.

I’ve prosecuted rape cases in the Los Angeles Superior Court as a deputy district attorney so I have a very good idea about what rape is. Without violating your fifth amendment privileges, what’s your experience?

rape is not the same in all cases. There are differences. And many of it depends on violence, sex, alcohol, and drugs…

There’s NO difference from the point of view of the victim.

Violence begets violence. Areas with higher rates of violence have higher rates of rape. Areas with lower, lower rates. Why do you think rape is so common in prison? because violence and perversion are infested all over the place…

This is how you justify blaming the woman? Seriously???

 

[manualman]

If it makes you fell better, it applies to me too. Many years ago, I was walking near home on a cold winter day. I had a long scarf wrapped around me that a friend had made for me. Two drugged high guys hanging out by the side of their garage decided I looked “queer” and called me a name. Being young and stupid, I flicked them off and walked on. Bad call as they decided I needed a lesson. They nearly beat me to death and I spent 2 weeks in the hospital and another month after that with my jaw wired shut.

Unquestionably I was the victim. But that doesn’t mean I wasn’t a fool for talking back to them. Reality bites. Women aren’t dainty little creatures that need your protection here. They can recognize that there are prudent choices and imprudent choices as well as I can and are NOT feeble minded and unable to recognize that this fact does not confuse who was the criminal and who was the victim. Give them some credit.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

If it makes you fell better, it applies to me too. Many years ago, I was walking near home on a cold winter day. I had a long scarf wrapped around me that a friend had made for me. Two drugged high guys hanging out by the side of their garage decided I looked “queer” and called me a name. Being young and stupid, I flicked them off and walked on. Bad call as they decided I needed a lesson. They nearly beat me to death and I spent 2 weeks in the hospital and another month after that with my jaw wired shut.

Unquestionably I was the victim. But that doesn’t mean I wasn’t a fool for talking back to them. Reality bites.

And you’re blaming yourself?

No, I see… you challenged them. So maybe not a victim at all.

 

[manualman]

And you’re blaming yourself?

No, I see… you challenged them. So maybe not a victim at all.

See my revised post. No, I neither blamed myself, nor challenged them to any sort of physical confrontation. Nice to see Mr. brave public defender classifying my free speech rights as “challenging.” Nice. You are what you say you despise.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

See my revised post. No, I neither blamed myself, nor challenged them to any sort of physical confrontation. Nice to see Mr. brave public defender classifying my free speech rights as “challenging.” Nice. You are what you say you despise.

You instigated or picked a fight by flipping them off. That’s difference from a rape.

 

[manualman]

You instigated or picked a fight by flipping them off. That’s difference from a rape.

No, I exercised my free speech rights by sticking up for myself verbally when I was put down verbally. How is that any different from a woman’s right to wear what she wants to where she wants to?

It was imprudent of me to do so and it is imprudent what some women do. Neither circumstance negates the crime committed in either case. If you think it does in one case and not the other you are a hypocrite (and probably one that secretly sees women as ‘weaker’ since your discrepancy seems to revolve around gender).

 

[centurionguard]

Its very, very, very easy to judge when you do not know a victim of any sexual abuse personally or are not one yourself. Its easy to judge because then it somehow takes away the fear that one will never be a victim, that it happens to other people because of the way they dress, the places they go, the people they now. Its easy to build a cocoon and sit in it and lull yourself into some kind of false sense of security. But then someone you know in your safe world becomes a victim, or you yourself are the victim of a sexual crime. Then you realize just how wrong you were about other victims of a sexual crime and the misguided blame you placed on the victim because you never, never thought it would happen to you or someone you loved.

PatriceA wrote:

Its easy to judge because then it somehow takes away the fear that one will never be a victim,

Ah! but does such presumptuous judgment in what you describe really take away the fear that you, I or anyone one else reading this thread will never be a victim of rape. Are people so absolutely sure beyond fervent faith, hope, and great love in God that He will not permit you, I or anyone else from bearing the heavy Cross of Rape? I was gang-raped and tortured once at gunpoint. Can I boast before God Almighty that such circumstances will never befall me again? I wouldn’t dear make such a boastful claim.

Are people so absolutely sure that Rape itself can (“only”) be rationalized by the way a woman dresses? Agreed; many primitive men with their Neanderthal preoccupation with Lust in all its Satanic glory, style and expression will look for anything that feeds their ego for power, control, and dominance over women or even just for the hellbent cheap thrill of it.

Granted a scantly dressed women hot to trot doesn’t help the primitive Neanderthal preoccupation of Lusts in many men. And while its prudent for women to dress more lady-like it does remove in any way the threat that such women can’t be raped.

If men want to be persistent, self-righteous, and blatant in how they blame women the way they dress, it should also be prudent that these same men analyze their weaknesses instead of acting like dogs and cats and pouncing lustfully on any women who walks down the street no matter how she is dressed.

Ninety-seven % of rape assailants are men. Is it a woman’s fault that men rape men, that men rape women, that men rape children?

Seems quite obvious to me that it is men themselves who have the greater problem because they have let their primitive sexual instincts rule their lives instead of humbling and relenting on their egotistical appetites of the flesh. Lets put the real blame where it sinfully belongs. Such men have honored their own bodies instead of seeking and honoring God.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

No, I exercised my free speech rights by sticking up for myself verbally when I was put down verbally. How is that any different from a woman’s right to wear what she wants to where she wants to?

Free speech only means the government can’t tell you not to flip off someone. You one finger salute the wrong people at your own risk, but that’s not a free speech issue as you describe it.

You picked a fight by flipping off two guys. Bad choice, to be sure, and no one should be beaten up for any reason outside of organized competitive sports, but, this is different from a woman getting raped. In fact, this is so different that a state like California will bar evidence of how a woman is dressed if that is being used as a “she asked for it” defense.

 

[PatriceA]

PatriceA wrote:

Ah! but does such presumptuous judgment in what you describe really take away the fear that you, I or anyone one else reading this thread will never be a victim of rape. Are people so absolutely sure beyond fervent faith, hope, and great love in God that He will not permit you, I or anyone else from bearing the heavy Cross of Rape? I was gang-raped and tortured once at gunpoint. Can I boast before God Almighty that such circumstances will never befall me again? I wouldn’t dear make such a boastful claim.

Are people so absolutely sure that Rape itself can (“only”) be rationalized by the way a woman dresses? Agreed; many primitive men with their Neanderthal preoccupation with Lust in all its Satanic glory, style and expression will look for anything that feeds their ego for power, control, and dominance over women or even just for the hellbent cheap thrill of it.

Granted a scantly dressed women hot to trot doesn’t help the primitive Neanderthal preoccupation of Lusts in many men. And while its prudent for women to dress more lady-like it does remove in any way the threat that such women can’t be raped.

If men want to be persistent, self-righteous, and blatant in how they blame women the way they dress, it should also be prudent that these same men analyze their weaknesses instead of acting like dogs and cats and pouncing lustfully on any women who walks down the street no matter how she is dressed.

Ninety-seven % of rape assailants are men. Is it a woman’s fault that men rape men, that men rape women, that men rape children?

Seems quite obvious to me that it is men themselves who have the greater problem because they have let their primitive sexual instincts rule their lives instead of humbling and relenting on their egotistical appetites of the flesh. Lets put the real blame where it sinfully belongs. Such men have honored their own bodies instead of seeking and honoring God.

You do realize that I was agreeing with you? I too am a victim, just FYI.

 

[manualman]

Seems quite obvious to me that it is men themselves who have the greater problem because they have let their primitive sexual instincts rule their lives instead of humbling and relenting on their egotistical appetites of the flesh. Lets put the real blame where it sinfully belongs. Such men have honored their own bodies instead of seeking and honoring God.

Unquestionably true. Rapists are the villians in the scenario.

My question is why we’ve allowed that fact to obscure the need for prudence. We tell people to buy locks for their doors, we tell people to walk in pairs at night in questionable neighborhoods, we spend public funds on security lighted paths, emergency phone boxes, etc. But we never BLAME the victim if they’ve failed to lock their doors or take advantage of other prudent protective measures. Why is the prudent protective measure of ensuring that one’s looks present a whole person rather than one or two prominent body parts considered boorish and retrograde. Why is that automatically classified as “blaming the victim” when encouraging people to buy deadbolts isn’t? It’s weird.

 

[manualman]

Free speech only means the government can’t tell you not to flip off someone. You one finger salute the wrong people at your own risk, but that’s not a free speech issue as you describe it.

You picked a fight by flipping off two guys. Bad choice, to be sure, and no one should be beaten up for any reason outside of organized competitive sports, but, this is different from a woman getting raped. In fact, this is so different that a state like California will bar evidence of how a woman is dressed if that is being used as a “she asked for it” defense.

The fact that you see it so differently says more about you than me. I’m VERY glad the prosecutor in my area was more enlightened than you are. Seriously? RESPONDING to two guys calling “hey Fggt, where’s your boyfriend?” is ME, “PICKING” the fight?
Hope you’re in a different career now! You got some weird double standards. In my area you can only be called the instigator if you initiated the conflict or escalated it.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

The fact that you see it so differently says more about you than me. I’m VERY glad the prosecutor in my area was more enlightened than you are. Seriously? RESPONDING to two guys calling “hey Fggt, where’s your boyfriend?” is ME, “PICKING” the fight?
Hope you’re in a different career now! You got some weird double standards. In my area you can only be called the instigator if you initiated the conflict or escalated it.

This thread is about blaming a woman for her own rape, not assigning blame for the fight that followed when you flipped off the guys who taunted you.

As for my career, I switched sides, I made a lot more money representing blue collar criminals.

 

[PetersKeys]

You instigated or picked a fight by flipping them off. That’s difference from a rape.

well, no… there are similarities. A woman getting raped because she went to some sleazy bar, dressing lustfully, getting drunk, acting and dancing lustful and sluttish, leading on men, doing drugs, reckless, and being careless/ditzy is similar to someone going to a bad area and starting ruckus with people. Both people are instigating bad influences to magnetize towards them.

Not all crimes are the same. According to your jaded view, rape would be equal everywhere. It is not. Rather rape is more common in areas where there is more violence, sex, lust, drugs, and alcohol.

Outer influences, like alcohol or lust, DO have involvement. And the more bad things you mix the more volatile a situation can become.

 

[ValentinesDay]

well, no… there are similarities. A woman getting raped because she went to some sleazy bar, dressing lustfully, getting drunk, acting and dancing lustful and sluttish, leading on men, doing drugs, reckless, and being careless/ditzy is similar to someone going to a bad area and starting ruckus with people. Both people are instigating bad influences to magnetize towards them.

Not all crimes are the same. According to your jaded view, rape would be equal everywhere. It is not. Rather rape is more common in areas where there is more violence, sex, lust, drugs, and alcohol.

Outer influences, like alcohol or lust, DO have involvement. And the more bad things you mix the more volatile a situation can become.

Depending on which statistics you reference, the percentage of women who have been raped can be upwards of 30%, that is, approximately one in three women have been raped, including date rape, which is still rape.

I doubt that anyone can say that one in three women have somehow instigated circumstances that have led to this humiliating, degrading and criminal act.

Put the blame where it belongs and that’s not on the victim.

 

[Sister_Angel]

I never said that, don’t put words in my mouth. I said bad actions can cause reactive bad actions to happen. Why do you think alcohol is involved in almost 50% of all rape cases?? If you are living a rebellious lifestyle the chances of violence increases greatly. That is simply reality

It all depends on the circumstances on hand and the intentions and actions of the person. A woman who is simply in the wrong place at the wrong time is not culpable at all. However a woman who is dressed like a harlot, and is going to parties, doing drugs and alcohol, goading men, and acting like a careless ditz is partly culpable because of her antagnostic actions. Its like walking into a pool of piranas and then blaming only the piranas for yourself getting hurt.

HI Peter, yes it is so that woman are more frail and man is to be their protector, not raper, beater, molester, murderer, Adam might have been a differnt kind of man being the first and God intrusted this female to him. Female, woman means= female man. We are to walk side by side and not under the feet of any man, some day Peter if a woman would marry you she will have to realy think like you do because i do see some prejudice in your words and domination. I would never allow anyone to dominate me.This is what happens in prisons not on main street, and you will notice prisoners will be dominating because of the way they had to live. Not nice.Better to do things out of love, love conquers all things, even me.