Question for Lutherans

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FabiusMaximus said:
What happened in England though is not necessarily the same as the Protestant Reformation. Henry VIII had actually issued a very tough criticism of Luther and a defense of Catholic tradition. This was of course, before the issue over divorcing his wife came up. I don’t think Henry VIII really cared about any of the doctrines espoused by the Luther or any of the other Reformers.
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I agree. The king wanted to remain Catholic or retain the Catholic faith. After his death the Church became more protestant. He believed that Christ was present in the Eucharist and thought it heresy to deny it.
 
mattp0625 said:
This number includes independent Protestant churches.

It also separates, for example, the Southern Baptist Church from the American Baptist Church, and all the others.

Either way, I think we can agree the number is in the thousands.
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Yes.
 
Even if Henry XIII had a strong case for annulment, that doesn’t justify schism.
 
GKC said:
No doubt. Could be tens of thousands.

But until and unless one has a common definition of what one is counting, one can’t accurately comprehend a count.
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Yes.

But then we would ask what about the “other church” which was casting demons out in Jesus’ name and approved by Jesus. Was that a denomination?

Just a thought from the department of redundancy department…
 
a rather crude Irish proverb that exemplifies how things are simplified over time. It states that, ‘Trust not the English faith for it is built on the testicles of Henry the Eight’, it uses another rather cruder word for testicles though. This kind of simplistic view of the whole matter is what many people absorb and as far as their understanding goes. (end prior poster)
GKC said:
Waving cardboard cutouts, as I have remarked.
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Cardboard cutouts? Those were days when men wielded verbal sledgehammers, said things as they really are.
Now is the era of cardboard cutouts, felt banners, feel-good euphemism ecumenism. Anyone for teatime?
I’d like to ship ARCIC to the Arctic.

O Tempora, O Mores!
 
commenter said:
a rather crude Irish proverb that exemplifies how things are simplified over time. It states that, ‘Trust not the English faith for it is built on the testicles of Henry the Eight’, it uses another rather cruder word for testicles though. This kind of simplistic view of the whole matter is what many people absorb and as far as their understanding goes. (end prior poster)

Cardboard cutouts? Those were days when men wielded verbal sledgehammers, said things as they really are.
Now is the era of cardboard cutouts, felt banners, feel-good euphemism ecumenism. Anyone for teatime?
I’d like to ship ARCIC to the Arctic.

O Tempora, O Mores!
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Yes, now are the days of cardboard cutouts. Not quite in the sense you are using here, is the sense I use the phrase, but now is the day.

Paul VI and Ramsey Cantuar had hopes.
 
Upgrade25 said:
Even if Henry XIII had a strong case for annulment, that doesn’t justify schism.
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What happened with Henry VIII and Martin Luther and the other “reformers” was a tragedy beyond all imagination. It can never be justified but must be corrected somehow. Prayers for all. God Bless, Memaw
 
7_Sorrows said:
and King Henry VIII sided with the Pope against Luther. the Pope gave King Henry VIII the title of Defender of the Faith. The king finally broke away for political reasons and Luther for theological reasons.
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JonNC said:
Don’t underestimate the political influence in the Lutheran Reformation
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And don’t forget that outside Germany, Lutheranism was much more like Anglicanism, it was a move about authority, not necessarily doctrine. In the Scandinavian reformation, we see the fruits of what began in the middle ages when king Sverre of Norway sought control over the church, and over the appointment of bishops. It is, in many ways, a parallell to what we see in England, where in the English Reformation we see the fruits of what began in the middle ages when both king Henry I and king Henry II of England sought control over the church, and over the appointment of bishops.
 
Memaw said:
What happened with Henry VIII and Martin Luther and the other “reformers” was a tragedy beyond all imagination. It can never be justified but must be corrected somehow. Prayers for all. God Bless, Memaw
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Here’s a start. For all of us. Recognize first the work of the Holy Spirit in each of us, and the sincerity of belief in all of us. When we all start from the position or respectful disagreement, then dialogue is possible.

Jon
 
Memaw said:
What happened with Henry VIII and Martin Luther and the other “reformers” was a tragedy beyond all imagination. It can never be justified but must be corrected somehow. Prayers for all. God Bless, Memaw
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I think quite a few (million) people would take umbrage with that. What would the RCC look like without the Counter Reformation? What would North America look like without the Puritans and the Pilgrim settlers? What would political governments look like without separation from the Roman Church power? What would our study and knowledge of Scriptures look like without the vernacular in the hands of the people? And where would we be without the likes of Milton, Shakespeare, Richard Hooker, the Wesleys, C.S. Lewis, Bonhoeffer, Marcus Borg, N.T. Wright, Handel, Bach, etc, etc, etc.

God is present in all Christ’s Church throughout the world - east, west, Roman, reformed, and even in those little storefronts in the big cities. Where two or three are gathered in His name…
 
KjetilK said:
And don’t forget that outside Germany, Lutheranism was much more like Anglicanism, it was a move about authority, not necessarily doctrine. In the Scandinavian reformation, we see the fruits of what began in the middle ages when king Sverre of Norway sought control over the church, and over the appointment of bishops. It is, in many ways, a parallell to what we see in England, where in the English Reformation we see the fruits of what began in the middle ages when both king Henry I and king Henry II of England sought control over the church, and over the appointment of bishops.
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Agreed.
 
KjetilK said:
And don’t forget that outside Germany, Lutheranism was much more like Anglicanism, it was a move about authority, not necessarily doctrine. In the Scandinavian reformation, we see the fruits of what began in the middle ages when king Sverre of Norway sought control over the church, and over the appointment of bishops. It is, in many ways, a parallell to what we see in England, where in the English Reformation we see the fruits of what began in the middle ages when both king Henry I and king Henry II of England sought control over the church, and over the appointment of bishops.
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I also agree, and you have inspired me to read more. Thank you.
 
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