Question for Lutherans

[Memaw]

Here’s a start. For all of us. Recognize first the work of the Holy Spirit in each of us, and the sincerity of belief in all of us. When we all start from the position or respectful disagreement, then dialogue is possible.

Jon

The Holy Spirit would want us to follow Jesus Christ in all HIS TRUTHS and in HIS prayer for unity. That we ALL be ONE in HIM. NOT in our own ideas or wills. That takes a lot of Humility on following the TRUTH no matter where it leads us. If we read the Gospels and listen carefully to what Jesus tells us, instead of making up our own minds about what it means, we could be off to a good start. Prayers and God Bless, Memaw

 

[Duane1966]

I think quite a few (million) people would take umbrage with that.

Umbrage does not mean Memaw is not correct. After all, many people take umbrage when you say that Jesus is the Messiah. I hope that doesn’t stop you from proclaiming what you believe to be true.

What would the RCC look like without the Counter Reformation?

No idea.

What would North America look like without the Puritans and the Pilgrim settlers?

Heaven. Sure the Native Americans would like to find out. What did that chief say? Something like, and I am paraphrasing,

The Spanish were bad for us, the English were much worse.

What would political governments look like without separation from the Roman Church power?

Heaven.

What would our study and knowledge of Scriptures look like without the vernacular in the hands of the people?

Since there were vernacular copies of the bible before the Reformation (22 in German before Luther was born), not sure there would be any difference.

And where would we be without the likes of Milton, Shakespeare, Richard Hooker, the Wesleys, C.S. Lewis, Bonhoeffer, Marcus Borg, N.T. Wright, Handel, Bach, etc, etc, etc.

Maybe, right where we are now. Even if none of those people had ever lived, I would still enjoy life and sing God’s praises.

God is present in all Christ’s Church throughout the world - east, west, Roman, reformed, and even in those little storefronts in the big cities.

And also in mosques, temples, synagogues,…But just because He is present in all those scenarios, does not mean that that is the ideal. After all, Christ started a Church, not Churches.

Where two or three are gathered in His name…

Read the whole passage. This particular verse deals with discipline, NOT, I repeat NOT, condoning all forms of Christian worship.

 

[JonNC]

The Holy Spirit would want us to follow Jesus Christ in all HIS TRUTHS and in HIS prayer for unity. That we ALL be ONE in HIM. NOT in our own ideas or wills. That takes a lot of Humility on following the TRUTH no matter where it leads us. If we read the Gospels and listen carefully to what Jesus tells us, instead of making up our own minds about what it means, we could be off to a good start. Prayers and God Bless, Memaw

So, who decides who is following TRUTH? If we start out at “I follow truth, you follow your own ideas”, we are already at a dead stop. My sense is Vatican II was intended to end that failed approach to dialogue. That doesn’t mean there is more than one truth. It simply means if your intention is to convince someone, starting out by saying they are only following their own ideas and not truth probably will lead to failure.

Jon

 

[ComplineSanFran]

The Holy Spirit would want us to follow Jesus Christ in all HIS TRUTHS and in HIS prayer for unity. That we ALL be ONE in HIM. NOT in our own ideas or wills. That takes a lot of Humility on following the TRUTH no matter where it leads us. If we read the Gospels and listen carefully to what Jesus tells us, instead of making up our own minds about what it means, we could be off to a good start. Prayers and God Bless, Memaw

Perhaps, Memaw, you are uncomfortable participating in what JonNC calls ‘respectful disagreement’ for the sake of dialogue. As one who really enjoys such dialogue here on Non-Catholic Religions, I tend to sigh when I hear language such as above. Many of us on this forum are Christian - followers of Jesus and his Gospel - as are you. With due respect, ma’am, lectures are not really needed.

 

[Memaw]

So, who decides who is following TRUTH? If we start out at “I follow truth, you follow your own ideas”, we are already at a dead stop. My sense is Vatican II was intended to end that failed approach to dialogue. That doesn’t mean there is more than one truth. It simply means if your intention is to convince someone, starting out by saying they are only following their own ideas and not truth probably will lead to failure.

Jon

You should listen to some of the many protestant ministers that have studied the Catholic Church and all her teachings and then followed the TRUTH into the fullness of Christ’s Church. History as well as Church History is proof of that. Prayers for all, God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

Perhaps, Memaw, you are uncomfortable participating in what JonNC calls ‘respectful disagreement’ for the sake of dialogue. As one who really enjoys such dialogue here on Non-Catholic Religions, I tend to sigh when I hear language such as above. Many of us on this forum are Christian - followers of Jesus and his Gospel - as are you. With due respect, ma’am, lectures are not really needed.

I an not uncomfortable in anything, I am grateful I was born and raised a Catholic and I would love nothing better than sharing it with all. Jesus prayed we would be ONE in Him. We should not settle for anything less no matter what we think. That’s why I said it would take a lot of humility to follow the fullness of TRUTH. God Bless, Memaw

 

[JonNC]

You should listen to some of the many protestant ministers that have studied the Catholic Church and all her teachings and then followed the TRUTH into the fullness of Christ’s Church. History as well as Church History is proof of that. Prayers for all, God Bless, Memaw

What about the ones that went to Holy Orthodoxy? Jaroslav Pelikan for example.
Maybe they are telling the truth, and the Catholic Church is just following their own ideas.

Jon

 

[ComplineSanFran]

What about the ones that went to Holy Orthodoxy? Jaroslav Pelikan for example.
Maybe they are telling the truth, and the Catholic Church is just following their own ideas.

Jon

Good point, Jon. Pelikan is one of my saints. I am in awe of his work. I once saw clips of his funeral service at Yale University. Yo-Yo Ma played (another of my saints). A good and holy man.

You know who else went to Holy Orthodoxy? The sacred composer John Tavener. Presbyterian → Russian. I always get the chills when I listen to his Song for Athene, which of course was the dirge at Princess Diana’s funeral.

I am sure there are many holy men and women who have followed the Truth to Orthodoxy. Or to Anglicanism. Or Lutheranism. Or, or, or…

 

[Starwarsfan2]

What about the ones that went to Holy Orthodoxy? Jaroslav Pelikan for example.
Maybe they are telling the truth, and the Catholic Church is just following their own ideas.

Jon

Good point , polemetics is tiring , and often bitter ( on the side , are u an Anglican now ? )

 

[JonNC]

Good point , polemetics is tiring , and often bitter ( on the side , are u an Anglican now ? )

Saturday. Allowing unordained seminarians to preside at the sacrament was a bridge too far for me.

Jon

 

[Memaw]

I am not trying to argue with anyone, just stating facts. The truth is the truth whither anyone believes it or not. Unless one is willing to even consider the TRUTH, it wouldn’t go anywhere anyway. What would you suggest we do, water down the truth so some will like it??? Seems we’ve done to much of that already. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

I don’t call that polemics. I call it TRUTH. God Bless, Memaw

 

[StGeorgesSquire]

Memaw:

I an not uncomfortable in anything, I am grateful I was born and raised a Catholic and I would love nothing better than sharing it with all.

I’m happy to see you are strong in your faith, but there is a fine line between disagreeing with an opposing opinion and telling others they are wrong because they have a different opinion. I have seen your posts in other forums that would support this.

JonNC:

So, who decides who is following TRUTH? If we start out at “I follow truth, you follow your own ideas”, we are already at a dead stop. My sense is Vatican II was intended to end that failed approach to dialogue. That doesn’t mean there is more than one truth. It simply means if your intention is to convince someone, starting out by saying they are only following their own ideas and not truth probably will lead to failure

Jon brought up an excellent point. We cannot continue having inter-faith dialogues with closed gates.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I’m happy to see you are strong in your faith, but there is a fine line between disagreeing with an opposing opinion and telling others they are wrong because they have a different opinion. I have seen your posts in other forums that would support this.

Jon brought up an excellent point. We cannot continue having inter-faith dialogues with closed gates.

Thank you for saying this with charity. I would like to add my support.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Now is the era of cardboard cutouts, felt banners, feel-good euphemism ecumenism. Anyone for teatime?
I’d like to ship ARCIC to the Arctic.

O Tempora, O Mores!

What do you mean that you would like to “ship ARCIC to the Arctic?” That is an offensive statement to the Holy Father and to the Holy See.

The Pope’s address in preparation for ARCIC III

*Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

1.     It is a pleasure to be with you, the members of the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission.  In these days you are gathered for a new session of your dialogue, which is now studying the relationship between the universal Church and the local Church, with particular reference to processes for discussions and decision making regarding moral and ethical questions.  I cordially welcome you and wish you a successful meeting.

Your dialogue is the result of the historic meeting in 1966 between Pope Paul VI and Archbishop Ramsey, which gave rise to the first Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission. On that occasion, they both prayed with hope for “a serious dialogue which, founded on the Gospels and on the ancient common traditions, [would] lead to that unity in truth for which Christ prayed” (The Common Declaration by Pope Paul VI and the Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Michael Ramsey, Rome, 24 March 1966).

We have not yet reached that goal, but we are convinced that the Holy Spirit continues to move us in that direction, notwithstanding new difficulties and challenges. Your presence here today is an indication of how the shared tradition of faith and history between Anglicans and Catholics can inspire and sustain our efforts to overcome the obstacles to full communion. Though we are fully aware of the seriousness of the challenges ahead, we can still realistically trust that together great progress will be made.

1.     Shortly you will publish five jointly agreed statements of the second phase of the Anglican-Roman Catholic dialogue, with commentaries and responses.  I offer my congratulations for this work.  This reminds us that ecumenical relations and dialogue are not secondary elements of the life of the Churches.  The cause of unity is not an optional undertaking and the differences which divide us must not be seen as inevitable.  Some wish that, after fifty years, greater progress towards unity would have been achieved.  Despite difficulties, we must not lose heart, but we must trust even more in the power of the Holy Spirit, who can heal and reconcile us, and accomplish what humanly does not seem possible.

2.   There is a strong bond that already unites us which goes beyond all divisions: it is the testimony of Christians from different Churches and traditions, victims of persecution and violence simply because of the faith they profess.  The blood of these martyrs will nourish a new era of ecumenical commitment, a fervent desire to fulfill the last will and testament of the Lord: that all may be one (cf. Jn 17:21).  The witness by these our brothers and sisters demands that we live in harmony with the Gospel and that we strive with determination to fulfill the Lord's will for his Church.  Today the world urgently needs the common, joyful witness of Christians, from the defence of life and human dignity to the promotion of justice and peace.

Together let us invoke the gifts of the Holy Spirit in order to be able to respond courageously to “the signs of the times” which are calling all Christians to unity and common witness. May the Holy Spirit abundantly inspire your work.*
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/04/30/pope_meets_members_of_anglican-roman_catholic_commission/1140721

 

[JimmyG88]

I think they wanted to “have it their way” also. I think Henry VIII broke away because he wanted a divorce and the Church wouldn’t and couldn’t grant him one because his marriage to Catherine was a Sacrament. God Bless, Memaw

More like the pressure on the Papal States brought to bear by Catherine’s nephew Charles V I imagine

 

[Don_Ruggero]

What happened with Henry VIII and Martin Luther and the other “reformers” was a tragedy beyond all imagination. It can never be justified but must be corrected somehow. Prayers for all. God Bless, Memaw

Catholics, under Pope Francis, will begin a year long commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, beginning this October 31. This is expressive of the view of the Holy See today – and it is how Catholics should articulate the mind of the Catholic Church on the issue of the Reformation. The mindset of the Church today is completely different that it was even a few decades ago…thanks be to God.

At the direction of the Holy See, dioceses all over the world, especially throughout the United States and Germany, are planning their own commemorative programs during this anniversary. All the Catholic faithful should involve themselves and participate in these programs to show their unity with the Holy See, which has a very different regard for the Reformation in the 21st century as opposed to centuries past.
*Pope Francis to travel to Sweden for joint Reformation commemoration

(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis will travel to Sweden in October for a joint ecumenical commemoration of the start of the Reformation, together with leaders of the Lutheran World Federation and representatives of other Christian Churches.

The event will take place on October 31st in the southern Swedish city of Lund where the Lutheran World Federation was founded in 1947. While kicking off a year of events to mark the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, it will also highlight the important ecumenical developments that have taken place during the past 50 years of dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans.

The one-day event will include a common worship service in Lund cathedral based on a Catholic-Lutheran “Common Prayer” liturgical guide, published earlier this month by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU) and the Lutheran World Federation (LWF).

The commemoration in Lund follows on directly from the publication in 2013 of a joint document entitled ‘From Conflict to Communion’, which focuses on the themes of thanksgiving, repentance and commitment to common witness. While asking for forgiveness for the divisions of past centuries, it also seeks to showcase the gifts of the Reformation and celebrate the way Catholics and Lutherans around the world work together on issues of common concern.*
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/01/25/pope_to_travel_to_sweden_for_joint_reformation_commemoration/1203462

 

[GKC]

More like the pressure on the Papal States brought to bear by Catherine’s nephew Charles V I imagine

One of the points, yes.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Indeed you are correct. Catholics who fail to do this are in violation of the norms in The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism and it is dispositive even for individual lay faithful on any issue or saying that touches upon ecumenism. As the Holy See wrote in the document:

The Directory is addressed to the Pastors of the Catholic Church, but it also concerns all the faithful…The Directory intends to motivate, enlighten and guide this activity, and in some particular cases also to give binding directives in accordance with the proper competence of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.

 

[Used2beSherryG]

This number includes independent Protestant churches.

It also separates, for example, the Southern Baptist Church from the American Baptist Church, and all the others.

Either way, I think we can agree the number is in the thousands.

Taking into account, that ALL individual Baptist churches are free to pursue their own beliefs )or those of their preacher) Baptist churches are in the thousands just for that one “denomination” or identifier". There are at least 33,000 and now, with all the “non-denominational” churches springing up in every town across this country and the world, each church has it’s own “pope”, so yes, we can say there are up to 40,000 different churches today. Certainly, Christ was encouraging us to be “one” as He and the Father are one. The Catholic church is the one and only true church, teaching what Jesus left us, in it’s entirety Two Thousand Years later, we cling to the truth, while all others are falling into error, mostly following the culture of the day. The Lutherans have had one huge split that I know of, and probably more splinters coming off as time goes by. Pray for unity.